So says the person who brought up a pair of irrelevant gaming markets, and made a blanket statement that was more of a shot at the PvP community than the PvE one. :rolleyes:
There is no such thing as an irrelevant gaming market when discussing gaming. PVP-centric games being dominant on both consoles and computers affects everyone but mobile gamers. The FTP market is dominated by Mobas. This phenomena affects us as players and consumers. PVP is the most popular way to extend a games longevity and not treating it like a red headed step child will do the game well. Just because PVP doesn't dominate MMOs doesn't mean it's not important. Every MMO ships with PVP because it's considered a key feature in practically any game.
Even survival horror games which thrive on being alone and scared are getting multi-player modes. If you want proof of my statements you can find them in devs words. Geko would like to put Moba elements into a pvp mode, a pvp rep is being considered, and territory control is being touted as a probable mode for PVP. The stuff is important and right now the devs are just wondering what to do. So don't anyone call it a pointless feature. And please remember I'm not advocating the game be taken over by PVP. I just want it to grow and be decent.
What a well thought out post. I especially liked how your points were backed up by opinions based on elegant observations.
They don't need to be backed up by opinions, they're backed up by facts.
Fact: Not all MMO's are designed with PvP.
Fact: No one has a right to be mad that the service they voluntarily partake of doesn't contain features or updates that weren't promised.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
They don't need to be backed up by opinions, they're backed up by facts.
Fact: Not all MMO's are designed with PvP.
Fact: No one has a right to be mad that the service they voluntarily partake of doesn't contain features or updates that weren't promised.
Fact: most MMOs are designed with PVP.
Fact: STO was designed with PVP as a part of its package.
Fact: gamers can get mad when a part of the package they invested in is shunned.
Fact: most MMOs are designed with PVP.
Fact: STO was designed with PVP as a part of its package.
Fact: gamers can get mad when a part of the package they invested in is shunned.
You said "MMO's are designed to cater to both groups of gamers" not "most MMO's." So you're in the wrong on the first part, regardless.
Secondly, gamers who get mad because they're playing in the hopes that changes they want will happen are deluding themselves. You should play the game that exists, not the one that you hope will exist in the future, and absent solid developer posts to the contrary, getting mad about the fact that your hopes don't coincide with the future is pretty silly, and certainly not something that should be referred to (your words) as a "right."
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
Fact: you can't say "Good Eye Might" without sounding Australian
You can if you William Shatner it.
Good!
Eye!
Miiiiiiiiiiight!
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
No one has a right to be mad that the service they voluntarily partake of doesn't contain features or updates that weren't promised.
only to tell u: they made promises about pvp from the start on and nothing happened since then, except fixing spawnpoints in kerrat, taking away one map/mode and paint the background in fvk capn'n hold into black...
in short: much talk, no rock.
also, regarding ur sig:
it's not surprising at all if pvp numbers are that low when nothing is invested into it and the game itself grant almost no education about its mechanics in any content at all.
...also, from what i know a dev said that 18 percent of the playerbase (whatever that means) is klink. so, how can it be that only one percent of the playerbase is actually pvping when the pvp-labelled faction is that much bigger?
...dont trust any statistics, except the ones u faked
Fact: most MMOs are designed with PVP.
Fact: STO was designed with PVP as a part of its package.
Fact: gamers can get mad when a part of the package they invested in is shunned.
Funny. The primary forum crutch in this thread seems to be saying "u mad" in some form or another. And here, we see a "mad" specifically about not being catered to.
And so a salvageable thread goes to Stovokor... or is it Gre'thor... I can't decide... how honourable was it?
Considering how much victimization (paradoxically at the same time making claims of elite status) and "woe is us we are necessary to this game" statements are being made, definitely Gre'thor.
You said "MMO's are designed to cater to both groups of gamers" not "most MMO's." So you're in the wrong on the first part, regardless.
Does establishing that there are a few MMOs without PVP disprove my entire point? I don't think it does and you're just bringing more attention to the fact that it's an industry standard.
Secondly, gamers who get mad because they're playing in the hopes that changes they want will happen are deluding themselves. You should play the game that exists, not the one that you hope will exist in the future, and absent solid developer posts to the contrary, getting mad about the fact that your hopes don't coincide with the future is pretty silly, and certainly not something that should be referred to (your words) as a "right."
First off the Devs have said many things about what they want to do with PVP. So you too are getting mad about possible futures.
PVP exists in STO and has been there from the start. Not hoping for change you view as positive in a game you play sounds like a punishing existence of delirious acceptance. People don't just accept the way the government or businesses work, but they keep on soldiering in hope that things will get better. Things like resource allocation, supply, and demand determine what can be changed at any time. I understand that STO was considered incomplete at launch by many reviewers and it's taken a long time to overcome that notion in the most basic of meanings. But the mission has been accomplished at this point with a long game filled with grinding and lore. But as part of the original package PVP still remains unfinished. Since the basic needs of the game are fulfilled in a grinding MMO sense the time has come to add something exotic. Giving PVP a nice update would both fulfil the original games purpose built design and add something exotic to the end game.
It's a win win for everyone if done properly. A portion of the population stays for longer and we attract more players. The PVP community isn't a blight either, they've helped fix several inherit bugs that hurt everyone. Look at the history of FAW if you want an example.
There is no such thing as an irrelevant gaming market when discussing gaming. PVP-centric games being dominant on both consoles and computers affects everyone but mobile gamers. The FTP market is dominated by Mobas. This phenomena affects us as players and consumers. PVP is the most popular way to extend a games longevity and not treating it like a red headed step child will do the game well. Just because PVP doesn't dominate MMOs doesn't mean it's not important. Every MMO ships with PVP because it's considered a key feature in practically any game.
Even survival horror games which thrive on being alone and scared are getting multi-player modes. If you want proof of my statements you can find them in devs words. Geko would like to put Moba elements into a pvp mode, a pvp rep is being considered, and territory control is being touted as a probable mode for PVP. The stuff is important and right now the devs are just wondering what to do. So don't anyone call it a pointless feature. And please remember I'm not advocating the game be taken over by PVP. I just want it to grow and be decent.
So Moba-clones for everyone right? That'll make tons of money and be sure to work! Like all those Blizzard-MMO clones! Right? Right?
You may not be able to notice this in the bubble you're living in, but not everyone wants to play another stupid Moba clone. In much the same way that you don't like PVE, we don't want to be in your quasi e-sport.
...also, from what i know a dev said that 18 percent of the playerbase (whatever that means) is klink. so, how can it be that only one percent of the playerbase is actually pvping when the pvp-labelled faction is that much bigger?
...dont trust any statistics, except the ones u faked
Yes...
Because when you play as a Klingon... you are obligated and outright forced to participate in PvP...
PVP-centric games being dominant on both consoles and computers affects everyone but mobile gamers.
The "PvP-centric games" that have become popular are FPS and MOBA games, which are predominantly set up to have a near-even playing field, such that it's a contest of skill as opposed to time/resources previously invested (unlike STO).
Let's look at MMOs:
As far as I know, EVE Online has probably the most uneven PvP. They had 500k subscribers as of Feb 2013, and hit a record high of 65k concurrent players this year.
As far as i know, GW2 has the least uneven PvP. (Their PvP gear is different from PvE gear, and stats are equalized.) They sold 3.5 mil copies with a record of 460k online concurrently.
I would say that, by those numbers, my hypothesis holds - the popularity of PvP games in the gaming market is primarily for contests of skill, not contests of time/resources invested.
For completion sake, because they're the elephant in the room, WoW has 117 PvE servers (16 High, 97 Medium, 4 Low) and 112 PvP servers (20 High, 61 Medium, 31 Low) with 7.6M subscribers as of last month.
So Moba-clones for everyone right? That'll make tons of money and be sure to work! Like all those Blizzard-MMO clones! Right? Right?
You may not be able to notice this in the bubble you're living in, but not everyone wants to play another stupid Moba clone. In much the same way that you don't like PVE, we don't want to be in your quasi e-sport.
I never asked for a moba clone. I mentioned Gekos interest in borrowing a few of the mechanics and used their popularity to back up my assertion that people in general love PVP. Turning STO into a moba clone isn't even a remote possibility, it would require changing the entire game. You're going to great lengths to try and discredit me but it just sounds silly.
The funny thing on my side is that I hate Mobas. Starcraft should be the more popular E-sport if you ask me.
Funny. The primary forum crutch in this thread seems to be saying "u mad" in some form or another. And here, we see a "mad" specifically about not being catered to.
lol Uh, yeah. Normal reaction for people, who purchase a service, then don't receive said service. I think most people would get mad, if they prepaid for their meal, then found the staff unwilling to cater to them.
"Come in and sit sown. We have steak, lobster, ice cream, and cake."
"Great! I like cake."
"That will be $199.00. Thank you. Your hostess will seat you."
*after eating some steak*
"I'll have some cake now, please."
"Sorry. We're still working on the cake. We have some fresh lobster and a new flavor of ice cream though."
"But you said there was cake."
"There will be cake. It's coming soon."
*after eating some lobster and ice cream.*
"Where's the cake?"
"There will be cake. It's coming soon. We have a new flavor of ice cream though."
"You said that before. How do you have a new flavor of ice cream, yet I still don't have my cake?"
*other patrons in the restaurant chime in*
"Hey! You're the only one who likes cake. The rest of us want ice cream. We don't want the kitchen wasting time on making your cake."
"But they said there would be cake. The cake was a lie!"
There is no such thing as an irrelevant gaming market when discussing gaming. PVP-centric games being dominant on both consoles and computers affects everyone but mobile gamers. The FTP market is dominated by Mobas. This phenomena affects us as players and consumers. PVP is the most popular way to extend a games longevity and not treating it like a red headed step child will do the game well. Just because PVP doesn't dominate MMOs doesn't mean it's not important. Every MMO ships with PVP because it's considered a key feature in practically any game.
There's such a thing as an irrelevant gaming market when we're talking about - amazingly enough - PVP specifically in the MMORPG gaming market. You even say it yourself right above: "PvP doesn't dominate in MMOs" - quite right, it doesn't. The community constitutes a niche demographic within the overall MMO gaming population. That is the point here, so bleating on about the MOBA and FPS markets is irrelevant - neither dominate the MMO market because they're not the bloody MMO market, and we're talking about the MMO market.
I don't know how many times I need to say that - and it really doesn't matter if a developer talks about incorporating elements of FPS or MOBA play into the game; those elements aren't going to allow the game to magically tap into the FPS & MOBA markets, and it's still an MMO. It's like Blizzard turning WoW into World of PokemonKungFuPandaFarmvilleCraft - it's all been novelty, no real market-tapping, and despite having pet battles and tending crops to your heart's content on your tubby Jack Black wannabe pandabear, you're still playing an MMO.
Also not every MMO ships with PVP, and no it's not considered a "key feature in practically any game". It's a feature paid lip service to by developers - especially MMO developers - because they know doing so will draw in a portion of the PvP fraternity, who will then proceed to be strung along for months - if not years - with the standard "Soon(TM)" rhetoric.
Unless I missed concrete proof of some overt, iron-clad promise of PvP content made by a developer with authorization to speak to the subject in an official capacity, it is dishonest to suggest such a commitment has been made.
The "PvP-centric games" that have become popular are FPS and MOBA games, which are predominantly set up to have a near-even playing field, such that it's a contest of skill as opposed to time/resources previously invested (unlike STO).
Let's look at MMOs:
As far as I know, EVE Online has probably the most uneven PvP. They had 500k subscribers as of Feb 2013, and hit a record high of 65k concurrent players this year.
As far as i know, GW2 has the least uneven PvP. (Their PvP gear is different from PvE gear, and stats are equalized.) They sold 3.5 mil copies with a record of 460k online concurrently.
I would say that, by those numbers, my hypothesis holds - the popularity of PvP games in the gaming market is primarily for contests of skill, not contests of time/resources invested.
For completion sake, because they're the elephant in the room, WoW has 117 PvE servers (16 High, 97 Medium, 4 Low) and 112 PvP servers (20 High, 61 Medium, 31 Low) with 7.6M subscribers as of last month.
This is a pretty good post but let's remember some important things about it. Despite WOW not being PVP focused it has more effort being put into pleasing PVPers than STO does. pVPers get entire servers for their use, that's territory mechanics at play too. All STO has in PVP that wow doesn't is a singular objective mode king of the hill map. Kerrat is like an entire server for WOW players. So what I'm seeing here is that companies that don't forsake a player base are rewarded for it. WOW even has a similar system to reputation in place for PVP servers, except it's more complex than any one rep path in STO. So treat us right and let the whole community grow as the majority of the industry shows.
Does establishing that there are a few MMOs without PVP disprove my entire point? I don't think it does and you're just bringing more attention to the fact that it's an industry standard.
Yes it does - you said that all MMO's have PvP, which implies that an MMO without PvP is therefore lacking a normal feature of MMO's. Not the case.
And if MMO's exist without PvP, it's hardly an industry standard, is it?
First off the Devs have said many things about what they want to do with PVP. So you too are getting mad about possible futures.
You are projecting your own emotions - what do I have to be mad about? The devs are going to continue ignoring PvP and I'm fine with that.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
Comments
God, this forum needs an ignore function. Badly.
There is no such thing as an irrelevant gaming market when discussing gaming. PVP-centric games being dominant on both consoles and computers affects everyone but mobile gamers. The FTP market is dominated by Mobas. This phenomena affects us as players and consumers. PVP is the most popular way to extend a games longevity and not treating it like a red headed step child will do the game well. Just because PVP doesn't dominate MMOs doesn't mean it's not important. Every MMO ships with PVP because it's considered a key feature in practically any game.
Even survival horror games which thrive on being alone and scared are getting multi-player modes. If you want proof of my statements you can find them in devs words. Geko would like to put Moba elements into a pvp mode, a pvp rep is being considered, and territory control is being touted as a probable mode for PVP. The stuff is important and right now the devs are just wondering what to do. So don't anyone call it a pointless feature. And please remember I'm not advocating the game be taken over by PVP. I just want it to grow and be decent.
https://youtube.com/channel/UCJZ5FBJ9bFaZ6yAFiNpZiRQ/featured?view_as=subscriber
Twitter:
https://twitter.com/CaptainCidStorm
Thanks
They don't need to be backed up by opinions, they're backed up by facts.
Fact: Not all MMO's are designed with PvP.
Fact: No one has a right to be mad that the service they voluntarily partake of doesn't contain features or updates that weren't promised.
Fact: most MMOs are designed with PVP.
Fact: STO was designed with PVP as a part of its package.
Fact: gamers can get mad when a part of the package they invested in is shunned.
https://youtube.com/channel/UCJZ5FBJ9bFaZ6yAFiNpZiRQ/featured?view_as=subscriber
Twitter:
https://twitter.com/CaptainCidStorm
You said "MMO's are designed to cater to both groups of gamers" not "most MMO's." So you're in the wrong on the first part, regardless.
Secondly, gamers who get mad because they're playing in the hopes that changes they want will happen are deluding themselves. You should play the game that exists, not the one that you hope will exist in the future, and absent solid developer posts to the contrary, getting mad about the fact that your hopes don't coincide with the future is pretty silly, and certainly not something that should be referred to (your words) as a "right."
You can if you William Shatner it.
Good!
Eye!
Miiiiiiiiiiight!
only to tell u: they made promises about pvp from the start on and nothing happened since then, except fixing spawnpoints in kerrat, taking away one map/mode and paint the background in fvk capn'n hold into black...
in short: much talk, no rock.
also, regarding ur sig:
it's not surprising at all if pvp numbers are that low when nothing is invested into it and the game itself grant almost no education about its mechanics in any content at all.
...also, from what i know a dev said that 18 percent of the playerbase (whatever that means) is klink. so, how can it be that only one percent of the playerbase is actually pvping when the pvp-labelled faction is that much bigger?
...dont trust any statistics, except the ones u faked
Funny. The primary forum crutch in this thread seems to be saying "u mad" in some form or another. And here, we see a "mad" specifically about not being catered to.
Considering how much victimization (paradoxically at the same time making claims of elite status) and "woe is us we are necessary to this game" statements are being made, definitely Gre'thor.
Does establishing that there are a few MMOs without PVP disprove my entire point? I don't think it does and you're just bringing more attention to the fact that it's an industry standard.
First off the Devs have said many things about what they want to do with PVP. So you too are getting mad about possible futures.
PVP exists in STO and has been there from the start. Not hoping for change you view as positive in a game you play sounds like a punishing existence of delirious acceptance. People don't just accept the way the government or businesses work, but they keep on soldiering in hope that things will get better. Things like resource allocation, supply, and demand determine what can be changed at any time. I understand that STO was considered incomplete at launch by many reviewers and it's taken a long time to overcome that notion in the most basic of meanings. But the mission has been accomplished at this point with a long game filled with grinding and lore. But as part of the original package PVP still remains unfinished. Since the basic needs of the game are fulfilled in a grinding MMO sense the time has come to add something exotic. Giving PVP a nice update would both fulfil the original games purpose built design and add something exotic to the end game.
It's a win win for everyone if done properly. A portion of the population stays for longer and we attract more players. The PVP community isn't a blight either, they've helped fix several inherit bugs that hurt everyone. Look at the history of FAW if you want an example.
https://youtube.com/channel/UCJZ5FBJ9bFaZ6yAFiNpZiRQ/featured?view_as=subscriber
Twitter:
https://twitter.com/CaptainCidStorm
So Moba-clones for everyone right? That'll make tons of money and be sure to work! Like all those Blizzard-MMO clones! Right? Right?
You may not be able to notice this in the bubble you're living in, but not everyone wants to play another stupid Moba clone. In much the same way that you don't like PVE, we don't want to be in your quasi e-sport.
Your a nice person. Dont let the forums take that away from you.
R.I.P
Yes...
Because when you play as a Klingon... you are obligated and outright forced to participate in PvP...
Ellipses....... ...........................
..........................
.....
.....make you sound like the boss on Office Space...... yeeeeeeeah.........
And on a more relevant note, either you're incorrect because there's a complete arc of PVE content for the KDF now or this is yet more whiny sarcasm.
I was aiming for a more Shatner-esque Style.
Ah... one can't do it right, huh?
Oh and it's not particularly whiny, it's more a little bit annoyed.
The "PvP-centric games" that have become popular are FPS and MOBA games, which are predominantly set up to have a near-even playing field, such that it's a contest of skill as opposed to time/resources previously invested (unlike STO).
Let's look at MMOs:
As far as I know, EVE Online has probably the most uneven PvP. They had 500k subscribers as of Feb 2013, and hit a record high of 65k concurrent players this year.
As far as i know, GW2 has the least uneven PvP. (Their PvP gear is different from PvE gear, and stats are equalized.) They sold 3.5 mil copies with a record of 460k online concurrently.
I would say that, by those numbers, my hypothesis holds - the popularity of PvP games in the gaming market is primarily for contests of skill, not contests of time/resources invested.
For completion sake, because they're the elephant in the room, WoW has 117 PvE servers (16 High, 97 Medium, 4 Low) and 112 PvP servers (20 High, 61 Medium, 31 Low) with 7.6M subscribers as of last month.
It's all good. I just like to poke people that get ellipses diarrhea.
I never asked for a moba clone. I mentioned Gekos interest in borrowing a few of the mechanics and used their popularity to back up my assertion that people in general love PVP. Turning STO into a moba clone isn't even a remote possibility, it would require changing the entire game. You're going to great lengths to try and discredit me but it just sounds silly.
The funny thing on my side is that I hate Mobas. Starcraft should be the more popular E-sport if you ask me.
https://youtube.com/channel/UCJZ5FBJ9bFaZ6yAFiNpZiRQ/featured?view_as=subscriber
Twitter:
https://twitter.com/CaptainCidStorm
It's a zero-sum game. Resources are limited, and people won't want them "wasted" on things that don't improve their experience.
lol Uh, yeah. Normal reaction for people, who purchase a service, then don't receive said service. I think most people would get mad, if they prepaid for their meal, then found the staff unwilling to cater to them.
"Come in and sit sown. We have steak, lobster, ice cream, and cake."
"Great! I like cake."
"That will be $199.00. Thank you. Your hostess will seat you."
*after eating some steak*
"I'll have some cake now, please."
"Sorry. We're still working on the cake. We have some fresh lobster and a new flavor of ice cream though."
"But you said there was cake."
"There will be cake. It's coming soon."
*after eating some lobster and ice cream.*
"Where's the cake?"
"There will be cake. It's coming soon. We have a new flavor of ice cream though."
"You said that before. How do you have a new flavor of ice cream, yet I still don't have my cake?"
*other patrons in the restaurant chime in*
"Hey! You're the only one who likes cake. The rest of us want ice cream. We don't want the kitchen wasting time on making your cake."
"But they said there would be cake. The cake was a lie!"
There's such a thing as an irrelevant gaming market when we're talking about - amazingly enough - PVP specifically in the MMORPG gaming market. You even say it yourself right above: "PvP doesn't dominate in MMOs" - quite right, it doesn't. The community constitutes a niche demographic within the overall MMO gaming population. That is the point here, so bleating on about the MOBA and FPS markets is irrelevant - neither dominate the MMO market because they're not the bloody MMO market, and we're talking about the MMO market.
I don't know how many times I need to say that - and it really doesn't matter if a developer talks about incorporating elements of FPS or MOBA play into the game; those elements aren't going to allow the game to magically tap into the FPS & MOBA markets, and it's still an MMO. It's like Blizzard turning WoW into World of PokemonKungFuPandaFarmvilleCraft - it's all been novelty, no real market-tapping, and despite having pet battles and tending crops to your heart's content on your tubby Jack Black wannabe pandabear, you're still playing an MMO.
Also not every MMO ships with PVP, and no it's not considered a "key feature in practically any game". It's a feature paid lip service to by developers - especially MMO developers - because they know doing so will draw in a portion of the PvP fraternity, who will then proceed to be strung along for months - if not years - with the standard "Soon(TM)" rhetoric.
It's so bad that even though I would fully support some much needed improvements to PvP if such a thing were to happen, I'm somewhat glad it won't.
The proof is pretty much plastered all over this thread. PvE and PvP champions combined, from where I'm sitting you're both as bad as each other.
So we're afraid of change and experimentation now?
This is a pretty good post but let's remember some important things about it. Despite WOW not being PVP focused it has more effort being put into pleasing PVPers than STO does. pVPers get entire servers for their use, that's territory mechanics at play too. All STO has in PVP that wow doesn't is a singular objective mode king of the hill map. Kerrat is like an entire server for WOW players. So what I'm seeing here is that companies that don't forsake a player base are rewarded for it. WOW even has a similar system to reputation in place for PVP servers, except it's more complex than any one rep path in STO. So treat us right and let the whole community grow as the majority of the industry shows.
https://youtube.com/channel/UCJZ5FBJ9bFaZ6yAFiNpZiRQ/featured?view_as=subscriber
Twitter:
https://twitter.com/CaptainCidStorm
Yes it does - you said that all MMO's have PvP, which implies that an MMO without PvP is therefore lacking a normal feature of MMO's. Not the case.
And if MMO's exist without PvP, it's hardly an industry standard, is it?
You are projecting your own emotions - what do I have to be mad about? The devs are going to continue ignoring PvP and I'm fine with that.