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a2b + BFAW + apb + DEM + MARION .. PvP have said their piece, let's hear PvE now.
deokkent
Member Posts: 5,439 Arc User
Some context
a2b= using 2 auxiliary to battery while having 3 purple technician duty officers equipped puts all bridge officer abilities on global cool down (basically means you double up all bridge officers abilities).
bfaw= beam fire at will
apb= attack pattern beta, reduces resistance to damage.
dem=directed energy modulation, increased shield penetration or adds more damage to energy weapons (depends how you look at it).
marion= it's a duty officer that gives incredible resistance to weapons drain for a short period (8 sec) upon activation of dem.
So there has been a heated (slight overstatement
) discussion in pvp subforums over the overpowered nature of bfaw a2b builds, being able to stack certain abilities and producing incredible dps pressure that cannot be easily resisted. Here's the thread link. A coordinated team of five could pretty much slaughter an entire team simultaneously. This is what happened a few days ago, some pve folks (very elite folks) rocked the pvp queues with this build, suppressing their opponents, veterans premades teams included, with pure raw damage (nothing can hurt you if your enemies are dead). This started a phenomenon in pvp community, almost a movement, making this build a kind of flavor of the month build.
Now the pvp community are discussing certain mechanics that seem to be not working as intended, for instance drain on beams or the fact that a2b cruisers (or scimitars) are capable of producing and maintaining 40k damage per second. So the pvp community is kind of pleading devs to look into it some more and maybe even bring the nerf hammer on a2b builds. I have my own reservations about the whole topic but I also kind of agree somewhat, as far as stacking certain abilities anyways.
Now, this build is used extensively in pve, so I thought maybe the pve community might have their own opinions about it. I've created this thread here hoping to start a discussion What does the pve community think about this? Do pvers agree with pvpers that a2b deserves a second look? It's too powerful? Are 2min cure elite runs normal?
Appreciated.
a2b= using 2 auxiliary to battery while having 3 purple technician duty officers equipped puts all bridge officer abilities on global cool down (basically means you double up all bridge officers abilities).
bfaw= beam fire at will
apb= attack pattern beta, reduces resistance to damage.
dem=directed energy modulation, increased shield penetration or adds more damage to energy weapons (depends how you look at it).
marion= it's a duty officer that gives incredible resistance to weapons drain for a short period (8 sec) upon activation of dem.
So there has been a heated (slight overstatement
) discussion in pvp subforums over the overpowered nature of bfaw a2b builds, being able to stack certain abilities and producing incredible dps pressure that cannot be easily resisted. Here's the thread link. A coordinated team of five could pretty much slaughter an entire team simultaneously. This is what happened a few days ago, some pve folks (very elite folks) rocked the pvp queues with this build, suppressing their opponents, veterans premades teams included, with pure raw damage (nothing can hurt you if your enemies are dead). This started a phenomenon in pvp community, almost a movement, making this build a kind of flavor of the month build.Now the pvp community are discussing certain mechanics that seem to be not working as intended, for instance drain on beams or the fact that a2b cruisers (or scimitars) are capable of producing and maintaining 40k damage per second. So the pvp community is kind of pleading devs to look into it some more and maybe even bring the nerf hammer on a2b builds. I have my own reservations about the whole topic but I also kind of agree somewhat, as far as stacking certain abilities anyways.
Now, this build is used extensively in pve, so I thought maybe the pve community might have their own opinions about it. I've created this thread here hoping to start a discussion What does the pve community think about this? Do pvers agree with pvpers that a2b deserves a second look? It's too powerful? Are 2min cure elite runs normal?
Appreciated.
0)o Slayage mode o(0
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
There has been zero changes to A2B, to my knowledge, that has somehow made it even better than it was when it first became available.
PvP tends to have something like four types of builds in Warzones. The Sniper, the UltraTank, A2B Boats and Defenders.
Snipers tend to kill faster than the A2B can kill their hull, yet often hit a snag with the UltraTanks.
UltraTanks can shake off an A2B, but do not have the DPS to make a dent in them.
A2B Boats maximize efficiency and allow them to tackle all four types and are deadly in groups.
Defenders hunt Snipers and defend UltraTanks and A2B Boats.
PvE A2B doesn't really have a negative effect. It's a win win.
That has been my experience with them..
Tech doffs were added. That's what makes A2b really shine
My opinion on this particular build is that although I recognize it's raw power, I personally do not use it because I feel it's cheese.
It doesn't impact me the same way it does to you PVP folks, in fact having team mates using this build makes my PVE missions finish faster. However, I'm still not a fan of it. It pretty much trivializes content. So if changes were made so that this build were less or not viable anymore, I would not complain from a PVE perspective. I'm afraid I don't yet have an opinion on exactly how this should be changed though.
Anyway, that's my 2 EC on this.
Mine Trap Supporter
They were added nearly two years ago... They were not some special lockbox doff, but a normal doff added to the game when the doffs were introduced in STO.
To me the PvE problem is that attack pattern beta, specifically 3, is far too strong a debuff to stack so much so often.
Take that off and the builds are less of a problem but they're still horribly powerful. I think virus dancer made the best point and that is that it is the combination of everything rather than one thing in particular. Though I think the energy drain mechanics and how beams benefit but others don't seem to is a major contributions.
Regardless my main beef is just how powerful they are but then I generally have a beef with how science ships are relegated to gimmick in PvE.
Also if you're rich enough you don't even need to run A2B on a ship, for PvE it's the high uptime on beta 3 and the lack of power drain that seem to be the main things making them so powerful...that and faw spam from 5 of them.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
That's really all you need to know or say. There really is no successful game out there that allows for consistently bypassing the built in cool downs. Because that's what is being done.
Cooldowns are a basic meter on the game, and they are normally determined by developers who set target goals for outputs by players vs the environment.
You can't be able to dress yourself, tie your shoes AND think that aux to bat builds are a normal everyday occurrence that the devs intended.
If by 'elite' you mean "have a few bucks to spend buying doffs' then sure. Elite play. Otherwise there really isn't anything skillful going on here. There's nothing to practice or learn. If you have the proper equipment and a thumb, you will do the damage. So there goes skill right out the door.
But it isn't a matter of skill vs faceroll. Anytime you can consistently bypass the games throttle system, that means the games throttle system is broken and it's just a matter of time before it becomes the de facto method of play.
Does that make sense I hope? This isn't a matter of opinion, or I like and you don't like and she doesn't care. It's how things work in life.
It's like Gresham's law for MMO's
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham's_law
Think of the concept, and not the specifics.
Cheers and have a happy day. Or have an aux2bat day and get it done in half the time.
Easiest fix? Only ships with commander sci or commander engineer may use it...ships that have few tactical slots are what needs this capability, not ones that can borderline exploit it
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
Tech doffs are as old as the doff system, and Marion has been out for a year.
Whoa whoa whoa. Who said patterns shouldn't stack?
That makes no sense. Otherwise every tac player after the first would be pretty wasteful, to say nothing of my poor Mesh Weavers.
The only weakness is the relative inability to use hull heals (as you either need engi team or an aux-based ability) making them vulnerable to bleedthrough or concentrated fire, as you can keep shields up but not easily repair your hull.
I personally won't use them, as I want to have auxiliary heals (especially on something like a carrier) and can't afford the technicians anyways. However, if you want to just stack up on damage excessively then A2B lets you do it.
It basically bypasses the cruiser's low tac seating (by removing double copies) at the cost of the science powers (which are not that great on most cruisers anyway).
However, it is not completely broken - it is nowhere near an auto win button against anything with drain (your aux will hit 0), bleedthrough, scramble sensors (lol) or simply the ability to use holds and disables.
Edit:
Attack patterns of the same type should stack with diminishing returns -> highest level apply first
1 APB1, 1 APB2, 1 APB3 + 1 FoMM -> FoMM and APB3 at full, APB2 at 1/2 and APB1 at 1/3
3 FoMM -> First counts for full, second for 1/2, 3rd for 1/3, etc
5 APB3 (excessive premade strat) -> 1 + 1/2 + 1/3 + 1/4 + 1/5 = 2.28 x one APB3
Basically, having additional patterns thrown around is beneficial, but not overpowering.
lol.. On the money, here. Naturally I'd want to be optimistic and pine in a few hopeful ideas but then that's quickly replaced with my inner pragmatist which knows devs are being lead by a $ for effort spent mentality. Seems to be with every 3-5 newer shinier additions we only get 1 maybe 2 appropriations to 'fix' what they've done.
Have an aux2bat day indeed sir!
Or nerf it and equalize the weapons we have so that there is no cookie cutter....
Also, DEM + Marion DOff isn't OP on its own.
What seems to be OP is when these two tactics are used in conjunction with one another.
Therefore, the only fix to this needed is one that affects how these two work together. From what I've heard, the cooldown on Marion is only something like 8 seconds? Which means that with A2B you'll be getting your energy weapon drain reduced as soon as DEM becomes available again (with A2B: every 45-85 seconds, based on the wiki). What I think should be done is simple: make Marion's cooldown the same as the cooldown for one DEM (90-170 seconds, based on the wiki).
Support 90 degree arc limitation on BFaW! Save our ships from looking like flying disco balls of dumb!
That is an interesting proposition, but aux2bat is merely getting dem to its gcd...people using 2 dems shouldn't be nerfed
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
Slotting two copies of A2B with 3 very rare Tech doffs means that you do not need to run more than one copy of any other skill that your build uses and that is a huge deal IMO.
Skills that are not dependent on Auxiliary power are made much better thanks to A2B.
My current build does not use the Energy drain reduction doff but I might break down and get one.
I mostly play PVE so I do not really see any problems with A2B builds and as it was already stated, they have been around for years.
I imagine Escort Pilots in PVP might be pretty upset with A2B builds since most if not all Escorts are not able to slot two copies of the skill like Cruisers and Carriers can.
Science is my preferred class to play in STO so I never had much interest in A2B but it is working wonders for my Tactical Captain.
If there were to be some kind of nerf to A2B builds I would imagine it would come in the form of limiting the about of Tech Doffs that could be slotted.
IMO if Cryptic thinks that A2B builds are getting out of control then they should change System Engineer doff that can reduce Energy Weapon power drain to a Technician and limit the number of Tech doffs that can be slotted to two.
With the above changes the build will still be somewhat useful without totally killing it.
My only other idea is for the cooldown reduction to not affect DEM.
Support 90 degree arc limitation on BFaW! Save our ships from looking like flying disco balls of dumb!
A potential fix could be to change technicians to the following:
Technician Duty Officer
White/Green/Blue/Purple
Adds 5/10/10/10 power to each subsystem when using Auxiliary to Battery.
Blue and Purples:
Adds 40/70 power drain resistance when using Auxiliary to Battery.
So aux 2 bat becomes a mini-eps with a little bit of drain resistance, with no effect on BOFF abilities. You need to trade away engineering abilities such as EPTW and EPTS to get an all-around buff.
Hardly. This build is nothing new. Its was being used for sometime already. A whole lot of ??? has arisen around the effectiveness of the maths. The pve folk pickup on the brokenness first because it's far easier to see the effect against the braindead borg.
Seems like the only thing that will end the calls for Nerfs is for there to be only White quality weapons, No consoles or C-sote items beacuse not every player can afford them or has access to them.
No skill tree as that allows customization and can lead to people having builds that are OP.
No Captian class's as that keeps everyone from having access to all abilities and that is unfair.
No Ship classes as that also creates imbalance as different ships have different specs and that is unfair. All ships need to be equal. otherwise you will have ships that are stronger than others and that is unfair.
No BOffs as that also allows customization of abilities and can create imbalance as not everyone will have the same skills.
No doffs beacuse they can also be used to create builds that are different than your opponent.
So...
to make that small community happy lets remove all these from the game so that they will not go boom anymore and everyone will be on the same level.
Reliance on a small segment of abilities like Tac Team or A2BBuilds, or the selection of powers, doffs, etc is a BAD design mechanic. It only leads to must have situations.
The only outcome is regimental, linear, dare I even say cookie-cutter. All this translates into a mediocre gameplay experience and boredom for a few moments of "Look'i'me".
For example, back in beta there was a time that Torpedoes were enjoyed for creating something other than pure cannon builds. Then for some reason, this changed leading to the point where torps were virtually pointless outside of torp-spreads, the effectiveness of even these debatable.
Personally, I foresaw this problem back when the skill trees were changed to a vanilla, universal approach. Suddenly everyone could be good at anything.
Prior to that there was career focus. I do not know why Cryptic decided they needed to make the skills easy to understand. Half the fun was the skill tree.
Ever since then, IMHO there has been a steady decline of playable choices, juxtaposed against the steady power creep introduced by more and more rep. etc. + the introduction of more and more must have ships.
Its just so boring to use is the thing, and boring to fly alongside of if you aren't using it. Maybe if they adjusted it so it only reduced engineering-based CDs? After all, Photonic Officer only works on science powers, and Tactical Initiative only works on tac powers.
Honestly if the devs just slowed down the rates of fire for cannons and beams while adjusting the values of heals and their respective procs, we could have a much more dynamic game play. Then you could afford to tailor slow beam fire with a better damage scale based off of range/etc. Usually with suggestions to dial-back you'll get a lot of opposition from devs who don't want to spend the time or players who are afraid of losing their edge so it's usually a wasted effort.
The only AttackPatterns that stack are the Captain abiliy APA and any single other Attack Pattern bridge officer ability. I do not see why that should be nerfed either.
R.I.P
My post was sarcastic but was "trying" to say that because of the way this game has been designed there will always be FOTM builds. Once they spread into the PVP queues and they are everywhere they scream and QQ for a Nerf. Unless it is something completly over the top like the Rep passive shield heal passave was on the Rep system launch where you could not die. Or the Resistance on Elite Fleet Shields that made it so the shields were immortal. Or the Elachi console. These were game breaking and obvious. But the Double tap and now this is just players not being happy about others being stronger than them or finding a build that they have not figured out how to counter yet. THese do not need intervention form the Devs. Due to they way Cryptic made this game there will always be OP builds and broken abilities and mechanics. Without a total overhaul to the entier metagame its just how it is. I'm just sick of the Nerf, Nerf, Nerf thread on anything that allows one player to blow up the ship of another. Someone has to die. Adapt.