My list before wasn't meant to be any kind of 'official' list by any stretch. I knew I'd probably be out of date on some stuff or just be completely wrong about it, or something else. I don't consider myself that good on the ground. I know enough to enjoy it, only thing I've never beat is Hive Ground Elite for ground stuff, and I do fairly well enough in ground PvP on the rare times I do it.
The point was to get folks thinking. And ok, I understand totally that the reason some fleets are so disliked is because they do abuse such things, ain't gonna deny that.
However, then someone, or some fleet that doesn't do such things, should take some initiative. A tournament similar to what Naz did the other day, where all those premade teams and fleets ARE broken up, and mixed with other people. Look at Naz's thread for that tourny, look at how MANY new names there were. Yes, many old names were there, but there were plenty of completely new people who came or at least signed up.
I have a feeling that more people might show up than ya'll may be thinking. Especially if at least a decent amount of the primarily space PvPers (who I know some ARE reading this thread) take a chance, and get out of the familiar territory of space, and try some ground PvP. Someone, or a group just need to take some initiative is all.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
I'm sure you've noticed that the debuff applies separately from 2 or more players so there will still be a team benefit, but one person wouldn't be stacking 11-12x on one person (or entire teams). Whether or not 2 scis can stack it separately after it's fixed we'll have to wait and see. Since I've been seeing the V-Rex debuffed 30+ times on tribble maybe it'll be a high priority. :P
I actually didn't know it stacked separately like that. I've done about 3-4 ground matches since the doff was "fixed", more of a spacer nowadays. Sounds like a reasonable change overall then, even for the poor V-Rex's.:P
Min/Maxing is not required, but believe what you want.
~voice of Yoda~
You must unlearn what you have learned
~Min/Maxer~
I, I can't
~Yoda~
That, is why you fail
I don't know, but this post seems to come across as slightly condescending to me. I do play ground, and I do know dedicated ground players that are super nice and down to earth. But they are just a few that I know. If the rest of the other ground people are like you, do we really need to look any further for the answer to the thread's question? :rolleyes:
I don't know, but this post seems to come across as slightly condescending to me. I do play ground, and I do know dedicated ground players that are super nice and down to earth. But they are just a few that I know. If the rest of the other ground people are like you, do we really need to look any further for the answer to the thread's question? :rolleyes:
He was clearly attempting to be humorous. He is also correct, you don't need to min/max to do well in space and ground. In space, there is very little difference between someone with 266/100 than someone with 300/66. Now the traits make more of a difference, but if you really want, there is room to take 4 space traits while still having the option to do well on the ground. In all honesty, the skill gap on the ground is much more noticeable than the skill gap in space. This is largely due to the cap for space being three times higher than ground, there is a much lower percentage gained from fully speccing in space compared to fully speccing in ground.
Ground PvP has many barriers to new players gaining traction. Cheese and poor sports premades aside, there is no guide to ground PvP, no Ground boot camp or guides to get new blood into ground PvP.
If I need a space build I can get one on the forums fairly easily, tweak it and make it my own. When it comes to ground those that know don't share often.
My list before wasn't meant to be any kind of 'official' list by any stretch. I knew I'd probably be out of date on some stuff or just be completely wrong about it, or something else. I don't consider myself that good on the ground. I know enough to enjoy it, only thing I've never beat is Hive Ground Elite for ground stuff, and I do fairly well enough in ground PvP on the rare times I do it.
The point was to get folks thinking. And ok, I understand totally that the reason some fleets are so disliked is because they do abuse such things, ain't gonna deny that.
However, then someone, or some fleet that doesn't do such things, should take some initiative. A tournament similar to what Naz did the other day, where all those premade teams and fleets ARE broken up, and mixed with other people. Look at Naz's thread for that tourny, look at how MANY new names there were. Yes, many old names were there, but there were plenty of completely new people who came or at least signed up.
I have a feeling that more people might show up than ya'll may be thinking. Especially if at least a decent amount of the primarily space PvPers (who I know some ARE reading this thread) take a chance, and get out of the familiar territory of space, and try some ground PvP. Someone, or a group just need to take some initiative is all.
I understand your point. One thing though, tournaments do not interest everyone. The war on Otha last night was far more enjoyable. I cannot say if the 'bad' fleets are acting that way on purpose just to fuel the awesome battles we have, but it works. Ground PvP has what KDF vs FED lacks, a real war. The 'hatred' may be more roleplaying than we all want to admit.
Ground PvP has many barriers to new players gaining traction. Cheese and poor sports premades aside, there is no guide to ground PvP, no Ground boot camp or guides to get new blood into ground PvP.
If I need a space build I can get one on the forums fairly easily, tweak it and make it my own. When it comes to ground those that know don't share often.
A few tips then:
1) Do not spec fully for space. (take a few good ground traits in place of mediocre space ones)
2) Learn to use crouch and aim mode.
3) Use captain powers. (this sounds obvious, but most I see in STFs never use these)
4) Equip useful items. (hypos, power cells, gambling device, shard of possibilities)
1) Do not spec fully for space. (take a few good ground traits in place of mediocre space ones)
2) Learn to use crouch and aim mode.
3) Use captain powers. (this sounds obvious, but most I see in STFs never use these)
4) Equip useful items. (hypos, power cells, gambling device, clones)(forgot name of clone device)
Shard of possibilities.
Also, using what you love can be key, I use fabrications even though its frowned upon in duels because I love it.
I find when you do what you love you put extra work into it and it just works better then other things might for you. [Though I still switch between fabrications and equipment technician]
Guess I love both just depends on if I am skirmishing on Otha or defending a spawn point or holding a virus console.
CABrandt and Carmen, spawn guardians.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Tip of the Spear
>
I understand your point. One thing though, tournaments do not interest everyone. The war on Otha last night was far more enjoyable. I cannot say if the 'bad' fleets are acting that way on purpose just to fuel the awesome battles we have, but it works. Ground PvP has what KDF vs FED lacks, a real war. The 'hatred' may be more roleplaying than we all want to admit.
If that is the case, that's fine. BUT, it is also a case of not knowing until someone tries. If someone tries, and it falls through for whatever reason, then you are no worse off than you are now. I mean, what is really the worst thing that could happen?
Now, I don't know the reality in regards to the various ground fleets, maybe you are right, maybe not, no idea. I just am going on what I've read. I do however remember quite awhile back with 'Evil Mirror FES' doing something for like a week though. THAT certainly got the ground queues running.
Someone, or a group just need to take a risk, and try to make a tourny happen. At worst, the tourny falls through, and you are no worse off than you are now. At best, a tourny DOES happen, and maybe you get some new blood, or at least interested people, into ground PvP aside from the 'old guard'.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
If that is the case, that's fine. BUT, it is also a case of not knowing until someone tries. If someone tries, and it falls through for whatever reason, then you are no worse off than you are now. I mean, what is really the worst thing that could happen?
Now, I don't know the reality in regards to the various ground fleets, maybe you are right, maybe not, no idea. I just am going on what I've read. I do however remember quite awhile back with 'Evil Mirror FES' doing something for like a week though. THAT certainly got the ground queues running.
Someone, or a group just need to take a risk, and try to make a tourny happen. At worst, the tourny falls through, and you are no worse off than you are now. At best, a tourny DOES happen, and maybe you get some new blood, or at least interested people, into ground PvP aside from the 'old guard'.
So.. "If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten". Or something.
I would be very interested to see the turnout of such a tournament at least, and its long term effects on ground pvp. There could even be a link to some ground pvp guides etc, in the opening post of the tournament thread. Since there seems to be a general lack of understanding of ground. Also give a week or two for people unfamiliar with it to practice and stuff, could be fun.
If that is the case, that's fine. BUT, it is also a case of not knowing until someone tries. If someone tries, and it falls through for whatever reason, then you are no worse off than you are now. I mean, what is really the worst thing that could happen?
Now, I don't know the reality in regards to the various ground fleets, maybe you are right, maybe not, no idea. I just am going on what I've read. I do however remember quite awhile back with 'Evil Mirror FES' doing something for like a week though. THAT certainly got the ground queues running.
Someone, or a group just need to take a risk, and try to make a tourny happen. At worst, the tourny falls through, and you are no worse off than you are now. At best, a tourny DOES happen, and maybe you get some new blood, or at least interested people, into ground PvP aside from the 'old guard'.
I was not intending to shoot your idea down. Sorry if it sounded that way.
He was clearly attempting to be humorous. He is also correct, you don't need to min/max to do well in space and ground. In space, there is very little difference between someone with 266/100 than someone with 300/66. Now the traits make more of a difference, but if you really want, there is room to take 4 space traits while still having the option to do well on the ground. In all honesty, the skill gap on the ground is much more noticeable than the skill gap in space. This is largely due to the cap for space being three times higher than ground, there is a much lower percentage gained from fully speccing in space compared to fully speccing in ground.
Well, we agree to disagree (or, "believe what you want", if that is humorous to you), but you do not make much sense to me. Also, this will be third time I will have posted that skill points is not the only thing that seperates ground from space. You have a larger issue of traits and reputation passives to deal with as well.
Is the idea of separating space and ground resources such that a player can max out his character in both space and ground so very horrible?
Well, we agree to disagree (or, "believe what you want", if that is humorous to you), but you do not make much sense to me. Also, this will be third time I will have posted that skill points is not the only thing that seperates ground from space. You have a larger issue of traits and reputation passives to deal with as well.
Reputation passives are not decided between ground and space, they are between offensive and defensive. There is not a single reputation passive ability where you can choose a space or ground. Reputation is a non-issue in the min/max discussion of space/ground specializing.
They give us so many traits now that splitting them even 80/20 is completely viable and enough to compete.
Reputation passives are not decided between ground and space, they are between offensive and defensive. There is not a single reputation passive ability where you can choose a space or ground. Reputation is a non-issue in the min/max discussion of space/ground specializing.
They give us so many traits now that splitting them even 80/20 is completely viable and enough to compete.
Well, my bad on the reputation passive things. I was occupied with numerous other things, one of them being taking advantage of the xp bonus and levelling a fresh toon to 50 within a day (I did it!), so I was confused.
However, going back to you and the other guy's statement that min/maxing is not required, let me ask you, why is it that we have not seen a player or a team that is equally good in both space and ground so far? If you jack-of-all it, you will at most be decent, but not the very best. Maybe you have more point in space and you will do better in space, maybe you have more points in ground and you will do better in ground. Against an unskilled opponent, you will definitely do better no matter space or ground. And, even though I am happy for you about your little story of going on to beat a space pre-made, at this point it is your opinion against mine, and that is the entirety of it.
If you want ground pvp to do better, trust me, I am not your enemy. But you gotta do better than to come up with 'because I said so'.
If you want ground pvp to do better, trust me, I am not your enemy. But you gotta do better than to come up with 'because I said so'.
I have seen no proof to back up your claim of needing to fully spec. But the DEVs did say this...
"We also split space and ground skill points. The ratio is 75% Space/25% Ground, with a small percentage of the points that can be spent in either ground or space. For example, if you have 10,000 Skill Points, you will be able to spend up to 7,500 in Space skills and 2,500 on Ground skills.
This change is being made to help prevent players from putting all their points into space skills, and then not being effective on the ground (or vice versa). It also helps make PvP more accessible to casual players by leveling the skill point playing field ? players who split their skills because they play ground and space could not compete with a player who put all their points into space or ground alone."
Granted, it's supposed to be h0rr0r@pokersmith1, but Naz was probably tired after organizing that awesome and long tournament, and we can overlook such trivial matter :P
Now, I'm not saying I am the alpha-omega of space pvp, rather far from it. But I got what it needs to compete.
"We also split space and ground skill points. The ratio is 75% Space/25% Ground, with a small percentage of the points that can be spent in either ground or space. For example, if you have 10,000 Skill Points, you will be able to spend up to 7,500 in Space skills and 2,500 on Ground skills.
This change is being made to help prevent players from putting all their points into space skills, and then not being effective on the ground (or vice versa). It also helps make PvP more accessible to casual players by leveling the skill point playing field ? players who split their skills because they play ground and space could not compete with a player who put all their points into space or ground alone."
And this proves you don't understand what I have been trying to say all along. Why need the points to be split between space and ground at all? Why cannot there be 300k points you can spend exclusively for space AND 133k points for ground? Why can't there be 5 space traits AND 5 ground traits, or whatever number that will is deemed sufficient for a good balance? Now you can min-max in BOTH space AND ground.
Well, my bad on the reputation passive things. I was occupied with numerous other things, one of them being taking advantage of the xp bonus and levelling a fresh toon to 50 within a day (I did it!), so I was confused.
However, going back to you and the other guy's statement that min/maxing is not required, let me ask you, why is it that we have not seen a player or a team that is equally good in both space and ground so far? If you jack-of-all it, you will at most be decent, but not the very best. Maybe you have more point in space and you will do better in space, maybe you have more points in ground and you will do better in ground. Against an unskilled opponent, you will definitely do better no matter space or ground. And, even though I am happy for you about your little story of going on to beat a space pre-made, at this point it is your opinion against mine, and that is the entirety of it.
If you want ground pvp to do better, trust me, I am not your enemy. But you gotta do better than to come up with 'because I said so'.
Do you do Space PvP? If I fought you in space with my character that is fully specced in ground with all ground traits would you be convinced?
What is this archaic spreadsheet supposed to be proving? It doesn't show how skill points or traits are spent for each player, it fails to show any connection between skill point set up and win/loss, the results listed are a tie, lol.
Well, how else would you like me to prove that you don't need to be min/maxed to do well?
1v1s are no longer relevant in space pvp. Without understanding that, how did you suddenly jump into this min/max vs jack-of-all argument? But if you still insist, we can try and have a little fun over the weekend. Either I humor you, or you humor me.
What is this archaic spreadsheet supposed to be proving? It doesn't show how skill points or traits are spent for each player, it fails to show any connection between skill point set up and win/loss, the results listed are a tie, lol.
This is the result of a No BS tournament that took place last saturday. Unless I have forgotten to count, the term 'archaic' does not apply here. Or, it could be you are just throwing around words without really knowing what they mean? And you are right, this does not prove much except that maybe I know what I am talking about. But is it really that much better than your anecdotal 'evidence' of having beaten a space premade? Probably not :rolleyes:
1v1s are no longer relevant in space pvp. Without understanding that, how did you suddenly jump into this min/max vs jack-of-all argument? But if you still insist, we can try and have a little fun over the weekend. Either I humor you, or you humor me.
This is the result of a No BS tournament that took place last saturday. Unless I have forgotten to count, the term 'archaic' does not apply here. Or, it could be you are just throwing around words without really knowing what they mean? And you are right, this does not prove much except that maybe I know what I am talking about. But is it really that much better than your anecdotal 'evidence' of having beaten a space premade? Probably not :rolleyes:
The hieroglyphics on the spreadsheet back up my use of the word archaic.
Why you want to argue about such a minor thing is beyond me. Our reasons are obvious, the skill and trait min/max is being used as a reason to avoid ground. Even worse, it is being taught as if it is a major proven fact. You seem to like to use logical fallacies to advocate your opinions. For instance, stating that 1v1s are no longer relevant in space PvP, and saying that a spreadsheet about irrelevant material proves you know what you are talking about.
@majortiraomega: we have other threads to discuss ground in, no need to keep this poorly titled one going IMO.
So.. "If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten". Or something.
I would be very interested to see the turnout of such a tournament at least, and its long term effects on ground pvp. There could even be a link to some ground pvp guides etc, in the opening post of the tournament thread. Since there seems to be a general lack of understanding of ground. Also give a week or two for people unfamiliar with it to practice and stuff, could be fun.
That's actually a really good way of putting it.
I think that roughly half numbers from what Naz had for his space tournament would work: 8 engineers, 16 sci, 16 tac. With a mix of 1 eng, 2 tac, 2 sci per team (in theory at least), would even out perfectly to 8 teams of 5. Now if it was a more popular thing than I am thinking, great, then more slots could simply be opened up.
I'd try and make a ground tourny happen, but two things I feel would hold me back from it:
1. I don't think my name would be good enough to bring in enough people to actually make it happen. I'm not trying to be egotistical with that statement. Heck, the title of the thread is that there are 50 or less persistant ground PvPers at all, and I am certainly not one of em at all. (Now of course, the truth of the title is entirely unknown, since the OP didn't really offer any evidence to that, but I digress)
2. I don't know enough about ground to create a good enough rule set. Like the list I posted a few pages back or so kinda helps show that. I know a good amount about ground, but not as up to date and well-informed as some of those that do a lot of ground stuff.
I was not intending to shoot your idea down. Sorry if it sounded that way.
Nah, it didn't sound that way to me. Don't worry about it. I totally get that if a tourny isn't really what ground PvPers want, then that's their choice. BUT, we don't know until someone tries first.
Now, something I've been thinking about, and I wanna 'test the waters' in regards to asking this question:
Would some of ya'll want to see the return of Ground Boot Camp? I ask this because many months ago, GBC was put on hold by those who started it back then. Here is the old curriculum and primer:
Look at those please, and tell me if you all think that is still good enough to help teach and give a solid start to ground PvP.
(If the OP, or some of you all want, I can make a new thread with a bit more info, and also not overly derail this one. I DO like ground, and I wanna see it grow, but I simply don't have the know-how and such to make it happen, I need help from those who do know ground a lot better.)
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Now, something I've been thinking about, and I wanna 'test the waters' in regards to asking this question:
Would some of ya'll want to see the return of Ground Boot Camp? I ask this because many months ago, GBC was put on hold by those who started it back then. Here is the old curriculum and primer:
Look at those please, and tell me if you all think that is still good enough to help teach and give a solid start to ground PvP.
(If the OP, or some of you all want, I can make a new thread with a bit more info, and also not overly derail this one. I DO like ground, and I wanna see it grow, but I simply don't have the know-how and such to make it happen, I need help from those who do know ground a lot better.)
Unfortunately, those guides are rather dated. For example, the Cryo Pulsewave is mentioned, which isn't much of a problem anymore. However, over the last month and a half I have been (slowly) working on putting together a comprehensive guide to Ground PvP as well as an overall introduction to Ground combat. It's not finished yet, it needs a lot of polish, but once it's done I plan to post it onto stowiki. With a bit of luck, I plan to have it up within the next few weeks. Hopefully some people will find it useful once it is finished.
What will FES and Hammer do now? Ohh wait, Sci Biochemist spam.
I can name a few. Uncloak in a group of five and complain we are cheating. Wait here is another double box. As far as a biochemist yes it does need to counter but if you die with a stack of debuffs it is your own fault for not paying attention to your buff tree. And Assad as cryo immobilizer the only way to combat it is to have it yourself. It needs to be fixed.
We would welcome any player to come to our fleet mumble channel and run with us. Then maybe you will see is all we do is better team work. But of course no one will because they would loose their ground on how we cheat. We welcome any match. Do we like to loose, no, no one does. We actually like the close matches better. The one think we will do is hunt a cloaker.
Unfortunately, those guides are rather dated. For example, the Cryo Pulsewave is mentioned, which isn't much of a problem anymore. However, over the last month and a half I have been (slowly) working on putting together a comprehensive guide to Ground PvP as well as an overall introduction to Ground combat. It's not finished yet, it needs a lot of polish, but once it's done I plan to post it onto stowiki. With a bit of luck, I plan to have it up within the next few weeks. Hopefully some people will find it useful once it is finished.
I had a feeling that was the case with that old curriculum and primer.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
I can name a few. Uncloak in a group of five and complain we are cheating. Wait here is another double box. As far as a biochemist yes it does need to counter but if you die with a stack of debuffs it is your own fault for not paying attention to your buff tree. And Assad as cryo immobilizer the only way to combat it is to have it yourself. It needs to be fixed.
We would welcome any player to come to our fleet mumble channel and run with us. Then maybe you will see is all we do is better team work. But of course no one will because they would loose their ground on how we cheat. We welcome any match. Do we like to loose, no, no one does. We actually like the close matches better. The one think we will do is hunt a cloaker.
I wrote up a long rant about the biochemist, but I decided something shorter would suffice. You know full well the biochemist duty officer is broken, blaming it on the other team doesn't justify your abuse of the duty officer at all. It's just another reason that playing with or fighting your fleet isn't enjoyable. All of you are fine with winning a blowout, but when things get close you all play like sore losers. If you want a prime example, a Ghost ship match that your fleet won about two and a half months back.
At one point the game was 18 to 6 in favor of the PUG team. Your fleet got mad and bunkered down in the lower level of Ghost ship at the choke point. The PUG team waited in the top level for a good 15 minutes, your fleet nagging us to come down into the gauntlet to engage them. We didn't, thus your fleet started firing orbital strikes and DoT duty officer plasma grenades through the floor, back when the DoT doff was even more bugged than it is now. We went down to engage them, we got wiped because one of your fleet's tac's was cycling kits to super stack DoT procs before firing. We then got camped for the remainder of the game because your fleet didn't want to chance losing.
So you will understand why I have a very low opinion of your fleet. If we are ever to do as mimey2 suggests, that type of behavior needs to change. As for your fleet's rabid hate for cloakers, there really is no need for such hate, cloaking is a fair and viable playstyle. I understand none of you know how to counter them, but you know where to find me if you ever want to stop and learn. Here's a hint, FES's method of cloaker countering doesn't work, so stop listening to them on that area. Their whole scripted spacebar healing thing that they do makes them easy to pick off because they are so predictable. Here's another thing, pick up a pair of Frosted Boots this winter event. A cloaker will panic if they are all buffed up and you use that to start sliding out of range.
Comments
My list before wasn't meant to be any kind of 'official' list by any stretch. I knew I'd probably be out of date on some stuff or just be completely wrong about it, or something else. I don't consider myself that good on the ground. I know enough to enjoy it, only thing I've never beat is Hive Ground Elite for ground stuff, and I do fairly well enough in ground PvP on the rare times I do it.
The point was to get folks thinking. And ok, I understand totally that the reason some fleets are so disliked is because they do abuse such things, ain't gonna deny that.
However, then someone, or some fleet that doesn't do such things, should take some initiative. A tournament similar to what Naz did the other day, where all those premade teams and fleets ARE broken up, and mixed with other people. Look at Naz's thread for that tourny, look at how MANY new names there were. Yes, many old names were there, but there were plenty of completely new people who came or at least signed up.
I have a feeling that more people might show up than ya'll may be thinking. Especially if at least a decent amount of the primarily space PvPers (who I know some ARE reading this thread) take a chance, and get out of the familiar territory of space, and try some ground PvP. Someone, or a group just need to take some initiative is all.
I actually didn't know it stacked separately like that. I've done about 3-4 ground matches since the doff was "fixed", more of a spacer nowadays. Sounds like a reasonable change overall then, even for the poor V-Rex's.:P
I don't know, but this post seems to come across as slightly condescending to me. I do play ground, and I do know dedicated ground players that are super nice and down to earth. But they are just a few that I know. If the rest of the other ground people are like you, do we really need to look any further for the answer to the thread's question? :rolleyes:
Elite Defense Stovokor
He was clearly attempting to be humorous. He is also correct, you don't need to min/max to do well in space and ground. In space, there is very little difference between someone with 266/100 than someone with 300/66. Now the traits make more of a difference, but if you really want, there is room to take 4 space traits while still having the option to do well on the ground. In all honesty, the skill gap on the ground is much more noticeable than the skill gap in space. This is largely due to the cap for space being three times higher than ground, there is a much lower percentage gained from fully speccing in space compared to fully speccing in ground.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
[Combat (Self)] You lose 6549 (7572) Cold from the torment of the underworld.
In-game handle @Janetza
[Combat (Self)] You lose 6549 (7572) Cold from the torment of the underworld.
In-game handle @Janetza
If I need a space build I can get one on the forums fairly easily, tweak it and make it my own. When it comes to ground those that know don't share often.
I understand your point. One thing though, tournaments do not interest everyone. The war on Otha last night was far more enjoyable. I cannot say if the 'bad' fleets are acting that way on purpose just to fuel the awesome battles we have, but it works. Ground PvP has what KDF vs FED lacks, a real war. The 'hatred' may be more roleplaying than we all want to admit.
A few tips then:
1) Do not spec fully for space. (take a few good ground traits in place of mediocre space ones)
2) Learn to use crouch and aim mode.
3) Use captain powers. (this sounds obvious, but most I see in STFs never use these)
4) Equip useful items. (hypos, power cells, gambling device, shard of possibilities)
Shard of possibilities.
Also, using what you love can be key, I use fabrications even though its frowned upon in duels because I love it.
I find when you do what you love you put extra work into it and it just works better then other things might for you. [Though I still switch between fabrications and equipment technician]
Guess I love both just depends on if I am skirmishing on Otha or defending a spawn point or holding a virus console.
CABrandt and Carmen, spawn guardians.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Tip of the Spear
>
If that is the case, that's fine. BUT, it is also a case of not knowing until someone tries. If someone tries, and it falls through for whatever reason, then you are no worse off than you are now. I mean, what is really the worst thing that could happen?
Now, I don't know the reality in regards to the various ground fleets, maybe you are right, maybe not, no idea. I just am going on what I've read. I do however remember quite awhile back with 'Evil Mirror FES' doing something for like a week though. THAT certainly got the ground queues running.
Someone, or a group just need to take a risk, and try to make a tourny happen. At worst, the tourny falls through, and you are no worse off than you are now. At best, a tourny DOES happen, and maybe you get some new blood, or at least interested people, into ground PvP aside from the 'old guard'.
So.. "If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten". Or something.
I would be very interested to see the turnout of such a tournament at least, and its long term effects on ground pvp. There could even be a link to some ground pvp guides etc, in the opening post of the tournament thread. Since there seems to be a general lack of understanding of ground. Also give a week or two for people unfamiliar with it to practice and stuff, could be fun.
I was not intending to shoot your idea down. Sorry if it sounded that way.
Well, we agree to disagree (or, "believe what you want", if that is humorous to you), but you do not make much sense to me. Also, this will be third time I will have posted that skill points is not the only thing that seperates ground from space. You have a larger issue of traits and reputation passives to deal with as well.
Is the idea of separating space and ground resources such that a player can max out his character in both space and ground so very horrible?
Elite Defense Stovokor
Reputation passives are not decided between ground and space, they are between offensive and defensive. There is not a single reputation passive ability where you can choose a space or ground. Reputation is a non-issue in the min/max discussion of space/ground specializing.
They give us so many traits now that splitting them even 80/20 is completely viable and enough to compete.
Well, my bad on the reputation passive things. I was occupied with numerous other things, one of them being taking advantage of the xp bonus and levelling a fresh toon to 50 within a day (I did it!), so I was confused.
However, going back to you and the other guy's statement that min/maxing is not required, let me ask you, why is it that we have not seen a player or a team that is equally good in both space and ground so far? If you jack-of-all it, you will at most be decent, but not the very best. Maybe you have more point in space and you will do better in space, maybe you have more points in ground and you will do better in ground. Against an unskilled opponent, you will definitely do better no matter space or ground. And, even though I am happy for you about your little story of going on to beat a space pre-made, at this point it is your opinion against mine, and that is the entirety of it.
If you want ground pvp to do better, trust me, I am not your enemy. But you gotta do better than to come up with 'because I said so'.
Elite Defense Stovokor
I have seen no proof to back up your claim of needing to fully spec. But the DEVs did say this...
"We also split space and ground skill points. The ratio is 75% Space/25% Ground, with a small percentage of the points that can be spent in either ground or space. For example, if you have 10,000 Skill Points, you will be able to spend up to 7,500 in Space skills and 2,500 on Ground skills.
This change is being made to help prevent players from putting all their points into space skills, and then not being effective on the ground (or vice versa). It also helps make PvP more accessible to casual players by leveling the skill point playing field ? players who split their skills because they play ground and space could not compete with a player who put all their points into space or ground alone."
here: http://sto.perfectworld.com/news/?name=sto-node-2744
Ask and you shall receive!
Granted, it's supposed to be h0rr0r@pokersmith1, but Naz was probably tired after organizing that awesome and long tournament, and we can overlook such trivial matter :P
Now, I'm not saying I am the alpha-omega of space pvp, rather far from it. But I got what it needs to compete.
And this proves you don't understand what I have been trying to say all along. Why need the points to be split between space and ground at all? Why cannot there be 300k points you can spend exclusively for space AND 133k points for ground? Why can't there be 5 space traits AND 5 ground traits, or whatever number that will is deemed sufficient for a good balance? Now you can min-max in BOTH space AND ground.
Elite Defense Stovokor
Do you do Space PvP? If I fought you in space with my character that is fully specced in ground with all ground traits would you be convinced?
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Le sigh.
/10 chars.
Elite Defense Stovokor
Well, how else would you like me to prove that you don't need to be min/maxed to do well?
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
What is this archaic spreadsheet supposed to be proving? It doesn't show how skill points or traits are spent for each player, it fails to show any connection between skill point set up and win/loss, the results listed are a tie, lol.
1v1s are no longer relevant in space pvp. Without understanding that, how did you suddenly jump into this min/max vs jack-of-all argument? But if you still insist, we can try and have a little fun over the weekend. Either I humor you, or you humor me.
This is the result of a No BS tournament that took place last saturday. Unless I have forgotten to count, the term 'archaic' does not apply here. Or, it could be you are just throwing around words without really knowing what they mean? And you are right, this does not prove much except that maybe I know what I am talking about. But is it really that much better than your anecdotal 'evidence' of having beaten a space premade? Probably not :rolleyes:
Elite Defense Stovokor
The hieroglyphics on the spreadsheet back up my use of the word archaic.
Why you want to argue about such a minor thing is beyond me. Our reasons are obvious, the skill and trait min/max is being used as a reason to avoid ground. Even worse, it is being taught as if it is a major proven fact. You seem to like to use logical fallacies to advocate your opinions. For instance, stating that 1v1s are no longer relevant in space PvP, and saying that a spreadsheet about irrelevant material proves you know what you are talking about.
@majortiraomega: we have other threads to discuss ground in, no need to keep this poorly titled one going IMO.
That's actually a really good way of putting it.
I think that roughly half numbers from what Naz had for his space tournament would work: 8 engineers, 16 sci, 16 tac. With a mix of 1 eng, 2 tac, 2 sci per team (in theory at least), would even out perfectly to 8 teams of 5. Now if it was a more popular thing than I am thinking, great, then more slots could simply be opened up.
I'd try and make a ground tourny happen, but two things I feel would hold me back from it:
1. I don't think my name would be good enough to bring in enough people to actually make it happen. I'm not trying to be egotistical with that statement. Heck, the title of the thread is that there are 50 or less persistant ground PvPers at all, and I am certainly not one of em at all. (Now of course, the truth of the title is entirely unknown, since the OP didn't really offer any evidence to that, but I digress)
2. I don't know enough about ground to create a good enough rule set. Like the list I posted a few pages back or so kinda helps show that. I know a good amount about ground, but not as up to date and well-informed as some of those that do a lot of ground stuff.
Nah, it didn't sound that way to me. Don't worry about it. I totally get that if a tourny isn't really what ground PvPers want, then that's their choice. BUT, we don't know until someone tries first.
Now, something I've been thinking about, and I wanna 'test the waters' in regards to asking this question:
Would some of ya'll want to see the return of Ground Boot Camp? I ask this because many months ago, GBC was put on hold by those who started it back then. Here is the old curriculum and primer:
sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=517981
sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=517971
Look at those please, and tell me if you all think that is still good enough to help teach and give a solid start to ground PvP.
(If the OP, or some of you all want, I can make a new thread with a bit more info, and also not overly derail this one. I DO like ground, and I wanna see it grow, but I simply don't have the know-how and such to make it happen, I need help from those who do know ground a lot better.)
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
I can name a few. Uncloak in a group of five and complain we are cheating. Wait here is another double box. As far as a biochemist yes it does need to counter but if you die with a stack of debuffs it is your own fault for not paying attention to your buff tree. And Assad as cryo immobilizer the only way to combat it is to have it yourself. It needs to be fixed.
We would welcome any player to come to our fleet mumble channel and run with us. Then maybe you will see is all we do is better team work. But of course no one will because they would loose their ground on how we cheat. We welcome any match. Do we like to loose, no, no one does. We actually like the close matches better. The one think we will do is hunt a cloaker.
I had a feeling that was the case with that old curriculum and primer.
I wrote up a long rant about the biochemist, but I decided something shorter would suffice. You know full well the biochemist duty officer is broken, blaming it on the other team doesn't justify your abuse of the duty officer at all. It's just another reason that playing with or fighting your fleet isn't enjoyable. All of you are fine with winning a blowout, but when things get close you all play like sore losers. If you want a prime example, a Ghost ship match that your fleet won about two and a half months back.
At one point the game was 18 to 6 in favor of the PUG team. Your fleet got mad and bunkered down in the lower level of Ghost ship at the choke point. The PUG team waited in the top level for a good 15 minutes, your fleet nagging us to come down into the gauntlet to engage them. We didn't, thus your fleet started firing orbital strikes and DoT duty officer plasma grenades through the floor, back when the DoT doff was even more bugged than it is now. We went down to engage them, we got wiped because one of your fleet's tac's was cycling kits to super stack DoT procs before firing. We then got camped for the remainder of the game because your fleet didn't want to chance losing.
So you will understand why I have a very low opinion of your fleet. If we are ever to do as mimey2 suggests, that type of behavior needs to change. As for your fleet's rabid hate for cloakers, there really is no need for such hate, cloaking is a fair and viable playstyle. I understand none of you know how to counter them, but you know where to find me if you ever want to stop and learn. Here's a hint, FES's method of cloaker countering doesn't work, so stop listening to them on that area. Their whole scripted spacebar healing thing that they do makes them easy to pick off because they are so predictable. Here's another thing, pick up a pair of Frosted Boots this winter event. A cloaker will panic if they are all buffed up and you use that to start sliding out of range.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)