test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Options
So why is it CRFI, II and III not any different?
shadowwraith77
Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
I happened to notice in the description that all three have the exact same cd timers of 1min10secs. and only last for 10 secs. So why even invest in II or III if they offer not better than I? Also 1min10 secs. seems longer than it was just a day ago or am I imagining things, because even with the same doff I have been using the use of multiples of CRF seem to cd slower than just yesterday!
Post edited by Unknown User on
0
Comments
To get an idea of the actual difference, activate each and look at the tooltip for one of your cannons. They will give you an idea of what they do.
Don't have specific numbers (mostly because I'm too lazy to go up into space and get them) but each rank adds more DPS than the last to your cannons, regardless (IIRC) of whether its AOE or single target. Each rank basically adds more volleys to each activation of a cannon.
So say your basic attack throws out 3 pulses. CRF1 would put out 9 pulses, CRF2 would put out 12, and CRF3 would put out 18. Mind you these are completely made up numbers, but thats the general idea.
CRF1 does 30% extra damage. CRF2 does 40%, and CRF3 does 50% extra. Not too much until you realize they're firing super fast, so you're doing 50% damage as well as more shots in that 10 seconds than you normally would fire in 30 seconds. It adds up to a major heap of damage output.
Since CSV is an AoE attack, the increase is less. You get 15/20/25% for CSV1/2/3, because this attack is creating a cone of fire on multiple targets. It's still quite effective.
In short, if you want to get the MOST damage out of your DHC-armed escort, the higher marks of these cannon skills will give you more damage than the lower marks.
Also note that there is a similar relationship between the different levels of beam overload and fire at will skills -- the higher levels do more damage, but the firing time and cooldowns are all about the same.
You can actually look at the weapon and it will show you the possible values for the various abilities used on it and then break out some parsing action to check.
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Ability:_Cannon:_Rapid_Fire
Also related to this topic:
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Ability:_Cannon:_Scatter_Volley
Tested on my escort in Sol space with CRF3 and CRF2, CRF3 was (going by mouseover on my first DHC) about 30% and CRF2 was about 22%.
HOWEVER, that's just looking at the damage of the weapon firing one cycle. That doesn't tell us the whole story.
If you note the DPS rating in that same mouseover, you will see the DPS increase (because CRF fires the weapon faster doing more damage in less time) and it comes out to about 50% for CRF3 and about 40% for CRF2.
So the 50% was overall damage and not per-cycle, I guess. I wasn't sure about the finer details until I tested it myself. Suffice it to say higher cannon skills equal higher damage output.
Normal: 629 DPV (838.7 DPS - 4/3 Cycle)
CRF1: 600.6 DPV (1092.1 DPS - ?/3 Cycle)
CRF2: 647.8 DPV (1177.8 DPS - ?/3 Cycle)
CRF3: 692.4 DPV (1258.9 DPS - ?/3 Cycle)
Let's take a look at the cycles first, eh? Perhaps we're a little jaded about trusting the tooltips...we should be looking at a 0.5s activation, 0.5s between each shot, firing four shots, with a 1s recharge period.
0.5 First Shot
1.0 Second Shot
1.5 Third Shot
2.0 Fourth Shot
3.0 Recharge Completes
Let's do 3 cycles on Autofire and see...
13:10:18:05:41:25.3
13:10:18:05:41:25.5 +0.2s
13:10:18:05:41:26.0 +0.5s
13:10:18:05:41:26.5 +0.5s
13:10:18:05:41:28.8 +2.3s
13:10:18:05:41:29.2 +0.4s
13:10:18:05:41:29.8 +0.6s
13:10:18:05:41:30.3 +0.5s
13:10:18:05:41:32.7 +2.4s
13:10:18:05:41:33.2 +0.5s
13:10:18:05:41:33.6 +0.4s
13:10:18:05:41:34.3 +0.7s
Not quite what was expected, eh? BTW, those are the times from the combatlog. Personally I like to use Notepad++ to look at things like this where you want to get to the nitty gritty.
Hey though, we're at 9.93km. Let's move in closer and try again. How does 0.20km sound?
13:10:18:06:04:28.7
13:10:18:06:04:29.2 +0.5s
13:10:18:06:04:29.8 +0.6s
13:10:18:06:04:30.2 +0.4s
13:10:18:06:04:32.1 +1.9s
13:10:18:06:04:32.6 +0.5s
13:10:18:06:04:33.2 +0.6s
13:10:18:06:04:33.5 +0.3s
13:10:18:06:04:35.8 +2.3s
13:10:18:06:04:36.3 +0.5s
13:10:18:06:04:36.9 +0.6s
13:10:18:06:04:37.2 +0.3s
Welp, still not what would be expected there...is it? Still, taking into account latency/etc - it's pretty close...well, outside of the gap between cycles being longer than expected.
Where we'd be looking for a 1.5s gap between the 4th and 5th (8th and 9th) shots - we're seeing a 2+s gap.
Hrmm, oh well - let's see how many shots we get with a CRF during a cycle, shall we? Regardless of the actual time between shots without the CRF - we're getting four shots a cycle, so let's take a look at the CRF. Just a single cycle to start...
13:10:18:06:14:19.5
13:10:18:06:14:19.9 +0.4s
13:10:18:06:14:20.2 +0.3s
13:10:18:06:14:20.4 +0.2s
Well then, still just 4 shots in a cycle. It's not adding shots to the cycle. But we can see that the time between the shots in the cycle is shorter, eh? Let's do three cycles again and see what we get...
13:10:18:06:18:28.8
13:10:18:06:18:29.2 +0.4s
13:10:18:06:18:29.5 +0.3s
13:10:18:06:18:29.7 +0.2s
13:10:18:06:18:32.0 +2.3s
13:10:18:06:18:32.3 +0.3s
13:10:18:06:18:32.5 +0.2s
13:10:18:06:18:32.8 +0.3s
13:10:18:06:18:35.2 +2.4s
13:10:18:06:18:35.4 +0.2s
13:10:18:06:18:35.7 +0.3s
13:10:18:06:18:35.9 +0.2s
And yep, something becomes apparent. First a quick note, that gap between cycles there...tsk, tsk, tsk...am I right? But anyway, yep - something becomes apparent. Earlier in the post I said the following:
Normal: 629 DPV (838.7 DPS - 4/3 Cycle)
CRF1: 600.6 DPV (1092.1 DPS - ?/3 Cycle)
CRF2: 647.8 DPV (1177.8 DPS - ?/3 Cycle)
CRF3: 692.4 DPV (1258.9 DPS - ?/3 Cycle)
That's not right. What we need to look at is the following:
Normal: 629 DPV (838.7 DPS - 4/3 Cycle)
CRF1: 600.6 DPV (1092.1 DPS - 4/? Cycle)
CRF2: 647.8 DPV (1177.8 DPS - 4/? Cycle)
CRF3: 692.4 DPV (1258.9 DPS - 4/? Cycle)
Based on the earlier premise of...
0.5 First Shot
1.0 Second Shot
1.5 Third Shot
2.0 Fourth Shot
3.0 Recharge Completes
...we can presume the following:
0.3 First Shot
0.6 Second Shot
0.9 Third Shot
1.2 Fourth Shot
2.2 Recharge Completes (but we know it doesn't...heh).
That's based off of the listed change from 0.5s to 0.3s. (Why trust the tooltip for that? Well, just like the 0.5s was close - so is the 0.3s to what we see in the log.)
So does 4/2.2 work out for those DPS values it lists?
CRF1: 600.6 DPV (1092.1 DPS) ... 600.6 * 4 = 2402.4 / 2.2 = 1092
CRF2: 647.8 DPV (1177.8 DPS) ... 647.8 * 4 = 2591.2 / 2.2 = 1177.8
CRF3: 692.4 DPV (1258.9 DPS) ... 692.4 * 4 = 2769.6 / 2.2 = 1258.9
Sure, sure - we could have just done 3 - (4 * 0.2) to get the 2.2...but wasn't that more fun? No? Must be me...
What do we know, though, from doing it the long way? The DPS is per cycle...it doesn't carry over from cycle to cycle. There's not a 1s gap between cycles - it appears there is a 2s gap between cycles. So a potential actual DPS for continued firing would be the following...because hey, it might be less than a 2s gap and if you look at enough - it might be more than a 2s gap. Fun stuff..but still, it might be the following...
Normal: 629 DPV (4/4 Cycle) 629 DPS
CRF1: 600.6 DPV (4/3.2 Cycle) 750.8 DPS
CRF2: 647.8 DPV (4/3.2 Cycle) 809.8 DPS
CRF3: 692.4 DPV (4/3.2 Cycle) 865.5 DPS
Course, that info really doesn't do anybody any good - because that's for the guy I was looking at, right? Gets into that whole where is the bonus (er -bonus for CRF1) applied, eh?
How about squeezing in another buff to see how the numbers change...hrmmm?
Normal: 629 DPV (100.0%) | w/ EPtW1 770.9 (100.0%)
CRF1: 600.6 DPV (95.5%) | w/ EPtW1 736.1 (95.5%)
CRF2: 647.8 DPV (103%) | w/ EPtW1 793.9 (103%)
CRF3: 692.4 DPV (110.1%) | w/ EPtW1 848.5 (110.1%)
Aha, curious then, eh? Were it a modifier to base damage, then the percentages would not be the same with and without the use of EPtW1. Yep, works like BO in that it comes after Weapon Power and after other buffs but before considering any Critical Hits and Critical Severity.
So then, we should be able to see the DPS increases like we see the DPV increase (and er, -increase in the case of CRF1)...
Normal: 629 DPS (100.0%) | w/ EPtW1 770.9 (100.0%)
CRF1: 750.8 DPS (119.4%) | w/ EPtW1 920.1 (119.4%)
CRF2: 809.8 DPS (128.7%) | w/ EPtW1 992.4 (128.7%)
CRF3: 865.5 DPS (137.6%) | w/ EPtW1 1060.6 (137.6%)
To double check all of that, let's see if it holds up after removing the Tac Consoles, eh?
Normal: 544.2 DPV (100%) 544.2 DPS (100%)
CRF1: 519.6 DPV (95.5%) 649.5 DPS (119.3%)
CRF2: 560.5 DPV (103%) 700.6 DPS (128.7%)
CRF3: 599 DPV (110.1%) 748.8 DPS (137.6%)
So then...
CRF1 = +19.3/19.4% DPS (-4.5% DPV)
CRF2 = +28.7% DPS (+3% DPV)
CRF3 = +37.6% DPS (+10.1% DPV)
So one can see where I was saying that it's ~40% but you're going with what STOwiki says for ~50% for CRF3...that extra second or so that appears between cycles during an actual parse rather than just looking at the tooltips. Taking that +50% and making it less than 38%.
What would be nifty would be to get Hilbert (mancom) to chirp in on the matter...the guy's got years of parses/years of data that he could look at on the issue.
CSV I > 3 Targets (current cap)
CSV II > 4 Targets
CSV III > 5 Targets
That would make it similar to how Torp Spreads I, II & III work.
So for folks with 3+torp you can only hit 3 at a time, possibly.
You've got a 0.5s activation charge on the CRF. If you trigger it at the same time as you trigger the Cannon, that first shot should be at the 0.5s activation as well...the second shot at the reduced 0.3s. Course, would need oodles of testing to verify that's the case. If you triggered the CRF first and then triggered the Cannon, the first shot would technically be at 0.8s, no? So it would be best to eat the additional 0.2s on the first shot than eat 0.5s on it. One could try to trigger the CRF during the recharge period for the Cannon so that the first shot occurs after that downtime and is in sync.
In general though, wouldn't you just be looking at the same 12 shots you would have gotten otherwise? If you worked it well, perhaps 13-14 shots?
Think I'll slap a DHC, DC, SC, and Turret on a guy to look. Something else to consider is that MACO reduces the recharge. Hrmm, that would be a wee bit more testing...but it would be interesting to see the results with 2pc MACO and without (by the way, the numbers from the previous post were not with 2pc MACO).
Yeah, I think I'm going to take a look at those various combinations.
Thanks in advance. Sorry to hijack your thread but it is along the same lines.
Mk II Phaser DHC, DC, SC, & Turret
0.0 km range
3 cycles
DPS Cycle calculated from listed DPV/DPS values
Gap would be the expected gap between the last shot of a cycle and the first shot of the next cycle.
First shot of each section will have ??? regarding the activation time for that first shot after being triggered.
Normal Firing
Dual Heavy Cannons
Listed Values: 0.5s Activation, 2.0s Recharge
Derived Values: 2/3 DPS Cycle, 2.5s Gap
13:10:18:18:00:57.0 +0.5s???
13:10:18:18:00:57.4 +0.4s
13:10:18:18:01:00.5 +3.1s
13:10:18:18:01:01.0 +0.5s
13:10:18:18:01:04.0 +3.0s
13:10:18:18:01:04.3 +0.3s
Gives the appearance of 1s of firing and 2.5s of downtime. So it would be 0.5s Activation, 2.5s Recharge, 2/3.5 DPS Cycle, 3.0s Gap.
Dual Cannons
Listed Values: 0.5s Activation, 1.0s Recharge
Derived Values: 4/3 DPS Cycle, 1.5s Gap
13:10:18:18:10:59.5 +0.5s???
13:10:18:18:10:59.9 +0.4s
13:10:18:18:11:00.2 +0.3s
13:10:18:18:11:00.8 +0.6s
13:10:18:18:11:03.4 +2.6s
13:10:18:18:11:03.6 +0.2s
13:10:18:18:11:04.1 +0.5s
13:10:18:18:11:04.7 +0.6s
13:10:18:18:11:06.5 +1.8s
13:10:18:18:11:07.0 +0.5s
13:10:18:18:11:07.5 +0.5s
13:10:18:18:11:08.0 +0.5s
Let me run that one again (2.6s gap between 1st/2nd and 1.8s gap between 2nd/3rd...huh?).
13:10:18:18:26:10.8 +0.5s???
13:10:18:18:26:11.1 +0.3s
13:10:18:18:26:11.7 +0.6s
13:10:18:18:26:12.3 +0.6s
13:10:18:18:26:14.2 +1.9s
13:10:18:18:26:14.7 +0.5s
13:10:18:18:26:15.5 +0.8s
13:10:18:18:26:15.8 +0.3s
13:10:18:18:26:18.2 +2.4s
13:10:18:18:26:18.5 +0.3s
13:10:18:18:26:19.0 +0.5s
13:10:18:18:26:19.7 +0.7s
And that didn't really help, did it? Switched the long/short of it...meh. This gives the appearance of an additional 0.5 to 1.0s taking place between cycles. So between ~2.0s to ~2.5s downtime instead of 1.5s. Activation is all over the place, but one could throw it at 0.5s, do a 1.5s to a 2.0s Recharge, 2.0-2.5s Gap, for either a 4/3.5s or 4/4.0s DPS Cycle.
Cannons
Listed Values: 0.5s Activation, 1.0s Recharge
Derived Values: 4/3 DPS Cycle, 1.5s Gap
13:10:18:18:38:07.5 +0.5s???
13:10:18:18:38:08.0 +0.5s
13:10:18:18:38:08.4 +0.4s
13:10:18:18:38:08.9 +0.5s
13:10:18:18:38:11.3 +2.4s
13:10:18:18:38:11.7 +0.4s
13:10:18:18:38:12.2 +0.5s
13:10:18:18:38:12.7 +0.5s
13:10:18:18:38:14.7 +2.0s
13:10:18:18:38:15.2 +0.5s
13:10:18:18:38:15.8 +0.6s
13:10:18:18:38:16.3 +0.5s
And it shouldn't come as a surprise that it basically looks like the Dual Cannons (since they're basically just twice the damage of the Single Cannon). So we're looking at the 0.5s Activation, 1.5-2.0s Recharge, 2.0-2.5s Gap, and either a 4/3.5s or 4/4.0s DPS Cycle.
Turrets
Listed Values: 0.5s Activation, 1.0s Recharge
Derived Values: 4/3 DPS Cycle, 1.5s Gap
13:10:18:18:45:29.5 +0.5s???
13:10:18:18:45:29.9 +0.4s
13:10:18:18:45:30.4 +0.5s
13:10:18:18:45:30.8 +0.4s
13:10:18:18:45:33.5 +2.7s
13:10:18:18:45:34.0 +0.5s
13:10:18:18:45:34.5 +0.5s
13:10:18:18:45:35.2 +0.7s
13:10:18:18:45:36.8 +1.6s
13:10:18:18:45:37.3 +0.5s
13:10:18:18:45:37.7 +0.4s
13:10:18:18:45:38.2 +0.5s
2.7s and 1.6s, eh? Can I say meh? I want to say meh. Okay, nevertheless it looks like Turrets are following the same thing as the Dual Cannons and Single Cannon - which shouldn't be a surprise, they're all listed at that 4/3 cycle with just different damages. So once again we're looking at the 0.5s Activation, 1.5-2.0s Recharge, 2.0-2.5s Gap, and either a 4/3.5s or 4/4.0s DPS Cycle.
Given what was seen here, the remaining tests will only be conducted with the DHCs and DCs (with the dangerous assumption that what holds for the DCs will continue to hold for the Cannons and Turrets)...
Normal Firing w/ 2pc MACO
Dual Heavy Cannons
Listed Values: 0.5s Activation, 1.9s Recharge
Derived Values: 2/3 DPS Cycle, 2.4s Gap
13:10:18:18:55:28.5 +0.5s???
13:10:18:18:55:29.0 +0.5s
13:10:18:18:55:32.4 +3.4s
13:10:18:18:55:33.1 +0.7s
13:10:18:18:55:35.9 +2.8s
13:10:18:18:55:36.3 +0.4s
Nifty, so now we've got a gap of around +0.5 to +1.0s larger than expected like with the non-Heavy Cannons above. Where's that itsy bitsy reduction from the 2pc MACO though?
Dual Cannons
Listed Values: 0.5s Activation, 0.95s Recharge
Derived Values: 4/3 DPS Cycle, 1.45s Gap
13:10:18:19:00:13.0 +0.5s???
13:10:18:19:00:13.6 +0.6s
13:10:18:19:00:13.8 +0.2s
13:10:18:19:00:14.4 +0.6s
13:10:18:19:00:16.7 +2.3s
13:10:18:19:00:17.1 +0.4s
13:10:18:19:00:17.9 +0.8s
13:10:18:19:00:18.2 +0.3s
13:10:18:19:00:20.8 +2.6s
13:10:18:19:00:21.0 +0.2s
13:10:18:19:00:21.7 +0.7s
13:10:18:19:00:22.3 +0.6s
Nifty, we know where the 0.5s gap that the DHCs picked up came from! Joking of course, joking.
Needless to say, though - yeah, I'm not going to bother with the 2pc MACO when looking at the CRF numbers.
Going to do a little something different for the listed times for the CRF stuff - it should stand out.
Cannon Rapid Fire
Dual Heavy Cannons
Listed Values: 0.3s Activation, 2.0s Recharge
Derived Values: 2/3 DPS Cycle, 2.3s Gap
13:10:18:19:15:02.6::Dual Heavy Phaser Cannons
13:10:18:19:15:03.2::Dual Heavy Phaser Cannons
13:10:18:19:15:06.7::Dual Heavy Phaser Cannons - Rapid Fire I +3.5s
13:10:18:19:15:06.9::Dual Heavy Phaser Cannons - Rapid Fire I +0.2s
13:10:18:19:15:09.7::Dual Heavy Phaser Cannons - Rapid Fire I +2.8s
13:10:18:19:15:10.0::Dual Heavy Phaser Cannons - Rapid Fire I +0.3s
13:10:18:19:15:12.9::Dual Heavy Phaser Cannons - Rapid Fire I +2.9s
13:10:18:19:15:13.6::Dual Heavy Phaser Cannons - Rapid Fire I +0.7s
13:10:18:19:15:16.3::Dual Heavy Phaser Cannons
13:10:18:19:15:16.8::Dual Heavy Phaser Cannons
And you know what, I'm not even going to bother doing the CRF1 DCs. Why? Cause we pretty much know what it's going to be, no? I mean, we can extrapolate what it's going to look like based on everything else we've done, no?
Even though CRF1 is a -% DPV, the faster speed of the cycle results in a +% DPS for that particular cycle...then you run into the gap. Overall though, it's still +% DPS. CRF2 and CRF3 have a +% DPV, which gives them a better +% DPS.
I'm curious where the additional gap's coming from. I figure it's probably tied into them being on autofire (we've seen the discussions about autofire being a loss of DPS)...at some point I may take a look at that, but right now...just noticed the time...I've got some grinding to do.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!