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Forums > Home› Feedback› Klingon Discussion

Since the Avenger got retconned...

drowrulesupremedrowrulesupreme Member Posts: 692 Arc User
edited October 2013 in Klingon Discussion
If and when the KDF get this new "Negh'Var" variant will the Vo'Quv variant, currently called the Voodieh, get retconned to something else in similar fashion to the old Avenger->Sentinel?
Since the "All Good Things..." variant of the Negh'Var got named the Voodieh (admittedly by Decipher games, but with CBS permission one presumes) long before Cryptic used the name for a carrier variant it would make sense to me.
What do you guys think? Should we have an unofficial "rename the Voodieh something else so we can reuse the name Voodieh properly" thread?
"...we are far more united and have far more in common with each other than the things that divide us.”
Jo Cox 22.6.1974 - 16.6.2016

Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • misterde3misterde3 Member Posts: 4,195 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    It's a nice idea. Assuming we ever get that ship, it would certainly make sense.
    So you've got my support on this.
  • shpoksshpoks Member Posts: 6,967 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    I don't think so. I mean in this case it's bloody obvious that they retconed the original Avenger Star Cruiser, so this one can have a name that reminds people of Vengeance.
    So I believe this one to be an exception in retconning names of ship classes.
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  • davidwforddavidwford Member Posts: 1,836 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    drowrulesupreme wrote: »
    If and when the KDF get this new "Negh'Var" variant will the Vo'Quv variant, currently called the Voodieh, get retconned to something else in similar fashion to the old Avenger->Sentinel?
    Since the "All Good Things..." variant of the Negh'Var got named the Voodieh (admittedly by Decipher games, but with CBS permission one presumes) long before Cryptic used the name for a carrier variant it would make sense to me.
    What do you guys think? Should we have an unofficial "rename the Voodieh something else so we can reuse the name Voodieh properly" thread?

    Except, the Voodieh was NOT a carrier. It was the prototype before the working prototype Negh'Var flew. The Vo'Quv is a completely different ship. Now, I would support a T5 Lt. General Negh'Var with the Fleet Negh'Var's BOFF layout and a gimmick console. And the ship skin needs to have the forward cannon barrel from "All Good Things..." and "Endgame". In addition, it should have the under slung pylons/nacelles seen on the "Endgame" variant and Regency 1.
  • kjwashingtonkjwashington Member Posts: 2,529 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    davidwford wrote: »
    Except, the Voodieh was NOT a carrier. It was the prototype before the working prototype Negh'Var flew. The Vo'Quv is a completely different ship. Now, I would support a T5 Lt. General Negh'Var with the Fleet Negh'Var's BOFF layout and a gimmick console. And the ship skin needs to have the forward cannon barrel from "All Good Things..." and "Endgame". In addition, it should have the under slung pylons/nacelles seen on the "Endgame" variant and Regency 1.

    From what I can tell that's what it's going to be. It will also likely give a discount to the fleet version. Something I'm curious about though, did the devs actually say "Negh'Var", or did they just say "ship"? A link would be nice. (Yes I know that there is a ship and it was delayed, but for some reasons I have my suspicions that it won't be a Negh'Var.)
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  • drowrulesupremedrowrulesupreme Member Posts: 692 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    davidwford wrote: »
    Except, the Voodieh was NOT a carrier. It was the prototype before the working prototype Negh'Var flew. The Vo'Quv is a completely different ship. Now, I would support a T5 Lt. General Negh'Var with the Fleet Negh'Var's BOFF layout and a gimmick console. And the ship skin needs to have the forward cannon barrel from "All Good Things..." and "Endgame". In addition, it should have the under slung pylons/nacelles seen on the "Endgame" variant and Regency 1.

    Go back and reread what I wrote. I never said the Voodieh was a carrier... not once.
    However, the VoD'leh class (the alternative Vo'Quv skin) IS, and it was to this I referred. Now Voodieh and VoD'leh are close enough that my sleepy head misremembered them as being completely the same. However, I still stand that I want the Voodieh name on a new Negh'Var, and would like it to have the pods and cannon so we both agree on that...

    Quick question though, where did you get the info about the Voodieh being a prototype before the Negh'Var flew. Both Memory Alpha and Beta do not support this, and the Voodieh name came from Decipher Games (who named the "anti-time future" version of a Negh'Var the Voodieh, which happened some time after the Negh'Var first flew, seen in DS9 Way of the Warrior). Not picking a fight, just curious is all and I've already been wrong once so I have no high horse :o
    "...we are far more united and have far more in common with each other than the things that divide us.”
    Jo Cox 22.6.1974 - 16.6.2016

  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    I support it all.
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  • davidwforddavidwford Member Posts: 1,836 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    drowrulesupreme wrote: »
    Go back and reread what I wrote. I never said the Voodieh was a carrier... not once.
    However, the VoD'leh class (the alternative Vo'Quv skin) IS, and it was to this I referred. Now Voodieh and VoD'leh are close enough that my sleepy head misremembered them as being completely the same. However, I still stand that I want the Voodieh name on a new Negh'Var, and would like it to have the pods and cannon so we both agree on that...

    Quick question though, where did you get the info about the Voodieh being a prototype before the Negh'Var flew. Both Memory Alpha and Beta do not support this, and the Voodieh name came from Decipher Games (who named the "anti-time future" version of a Negh'Var the Voodieh, which happened some time after the Negh'Var first flew, seen in DS9 Way of the Warrior). Not picking a fight, just curious is all and I've already been wrong once so I have no high horse :o

    Nice job admitting you are wrong while still telling me I'm wrong(and yes, I did re-read, and my argument is NOT wrong as I read it word for word, typo just nullifies my argument without refuting it). If it was a typo, just say so. There is a big difference between an "L" and an "I".

    As for it being the prototype, the one in "All Good Things..." was the first seen, and THAT makes it the prototype/pheonotype original standard on which all others are variants and modifications. Negh'Var simply replaces the "official" class name as it was the one used on screen.
  • ooiueooiue Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    All alternate future varients and the Regent's Flagship (which I'd love to fly btw, just sayin :P) are based on the original Negh'var model. The All Good Things ship was the unofficial introduction of the Negh'var before it became officially introduced during DS9, more than a year later.

    They just changed a little bit 'tis all (such as whether that varient as the wing pylons, or some have other minor features)

    http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schematics/klingon_ships.htm

    That link is the page your looking for, the Negh'var is about half way to 2/3rds of the way down
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  • drowrulesupremedrowrulesupreme Member Posts: 692 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    davidwford wrote: »
    Nice job admitting you are wrong while still telling me I'm wrong(and yes, I did re-read, and my argument is NOT wrong as I read it word for word, typo just nullifies my argument without refuting it). If it was a typo, just say so. There is a big difference between an "L" and an "I".

    As for it being the prototype, the one in "All Good Things..." was the first seen, and THAT makes it the prototype/pheonotype original standard on which all others are variants and modifications. Negh'Var simply replaces the "official" class name as it was the one used on screen.

    Thank you, I do try. :P I never said mine was a typo, a typo is hitting S when you meant to hit D. I remembered the spelling completely incorrectly. My fingers are fine, it's my mind that's going :D
    The fact is that, despite my being wrong, you are, in fact, wrong yourself. We can both be wrong on different points and still be wrong, it's not a point worth committing hari-kiri over, nor worth spitting out the dummy. I admitted an error with the name, you stick by your error over which came first despite evidence to the contrary. Sad really, when we both want the Voodieh in the game in proper form but you choose to ignore that I'm agreeing with you for the sake of "scoring points".
    "...we are far more united and have far more in common with each other than the things that divide us.”
    Jo Cox 22.6.1974 - 16.6.2016

  • placidaplacida Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    I think what we can all agree on is, if a "new" "Negh'Var-type" ship is coming we all want to see the Negh'Var in-game look as it did in Way of the Warrior and for a new ship to look like it did in "All Good Things..." and possible be called the Voodieh.
    I see "retconning" the appearance of the Negh'Var to be a big plus if a new Retrofit/Fleet version appears.
    That and 5 fore weapon slots...
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    heres my neghvar head cannon. with as much actual canon mixed in as possible. the first neghvar was gowrons, the one that attacked DS9, the one with the huge underslung cannons. they didn't mass produce that one though, the Voodieh became the production type that was a bit decontented, and less tac heavy then the original. what we have in game now is the Voodieh, and when this neghvar refit finally gets launched, it will actually be a true reproduction of gowrons flagship.

    thus the neghvar in game now should get its name changed to Voodieh, and the 'neghvar refit' should simply be called the neghvar
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  • misterde3misterde3 Member Posts: 4,195 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    dontdrunkimshoot wrote: »
    heres my neghvar head cannon. with as much actual canon mixed in as possible. the first neghvar was gowrons, the one that attacked DS9, the one with the huge underslung cannons. they didn't mass produce that one though, the Voodieh became the production type that was a bit decontented, and less tac heavy then the original. what we have in game now is the Voodieh, and when this neghvar refit finally gets launched, it will actually be a true reproduction of gowrons flagship.

    thus the neghvar in game now should get its name changed to Voodieh, and the 'neghvar refit' should simply be called the neghvar

    Sounds a lot like what I thought for most of the time.
    Voyager's "Endgame" changed that slightly: I'd say they did produce BOTH variants.
    In what ratio...I don't know but I'd say the AGT version is more common than the DS9 version.
    The one with the guns on the underside and the AGT version and both have some fundamental differentces.
    The version with the guns we saw in DS9 and Voyager was very much a lumbering brick while the AGT version was a lot faster.
    So my guess is the DS9 version is actually the "battleship" version with lots of firpower and armor while the version from AGT (which Worf called an "Attack Cruiser") is essentially the "cheaper" version with less armor and guns. Since she's still got the same engines, she's also faster. So she's (in the old naval sense) the "battlecruiser" version, just like the Renown and Repulse were the battlecruiser version of the Revenge class battleships.
    The battlecruiser actually used a somewhat modified battleships frame with reduced armor and one less turret.

    One minor note on the name (not directed to anyone in particular): "Voodieh" is to voDleH what Kronos is to Qo'noS: the same only once in Klingon and once in English writing.
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    misterde3 wrote: »
    Sounds a lot like what I thought for most of the time.
    Voyager's "Endgame" changed that slightly: I'd say they did produce BOTH variants.
    In what ratio...I don't know but I'd say the AGT version is more common than the DS9 version.
    The one with the guns on the underside and the AGT version and both have some fundamental differentces.
    The version with the guns we saw in DS9 and Voyager was very much a lumbering brick while the AGT version was a lot faster.
    So my guess is the DS9 version is actually the "battleship" version with lots of firpower and armor while the version from AGT (which Worf called an "Attack Cruiser") is essentially the "cheaper" version with less armor and guns. Since she's still got the same engines, she's also faster. So she's (in the old naval sense) the "battlecruiser" version, just like the Renown and Repulse were the battlecruiser version of the Revenge class battleships.
    The battlecruiser actually used a somewhat modified battleships frame with reduced armor and one less turret.

    One minor note on the name (not directed to anyone in particular): "Voodieh" is to voDleH what Kronos is to Qo'noS: the same only once in Klingon and once in English writing.

    its important to remember that the kdf is a collection of feudal houses, not a unified people, government and military. ships are commissioned by great houses, and used for their own interests, and when needed they are used to fight for the whole of the empire.

    so, ships arent as cut and dry class wise. examples of gowran's negvar showing up in end game just shows that at least that house had non decontented neghvars built.
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  • davidwforddavidwford Member Posts: 1,836 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    f2pdrakron wrote: »
    ...

    Really?

    Ok, you do know that episode is a bit all over the place with dates but those ships were seen in 2395, now the Negh'Var we see in DS9 was in "Way of the Warrior" and "By Inferno's Light" that was in 2372, so according to your "logic" that means the "prototype" was first seen 23 years after ... and of course we have to ignore the fact "All Good Things ..." was a ALTERNATIVE FUTURE.

    I have no idea how you reach such conclusion, not only you would have to ignore "All Good Things ..." having parts taking place in the future but also ignore the fact said future was a Alternative one, Admiral William T. Riker does not command the USS Enterprise NCC-1701-D in 2395 now does he? that ship crashed in Veridian III in 2371 , that is a whole YEAR before DS9 shown a Negh'Var, in fact ...

    http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/IKS_Negh%27Var

    ... In short, you are wrong, dead wrong and saying your logic is flawed is hell of a understatement, true that the Negh'Var model was first used in "All Good Things ..." but that model was created from the Vor'cHa.

    http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Negh%27Var_warship#Studio_models

    Because I am using actual world time as my frame of reference. THAT is how it is logical. I am looking at the progression of the studio model and how it changed through the 1990s. So, no, I am not wrong.
  • mreeves7amreeves7a Member Posts: 499 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    I'd be happy if the Negh'var refit (retrofit?) just had the model of the concept art sketch.

    http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/en/images/2/27/Negh%27Var_redesign_sketch_by_Rick_Sternbach.jpg

    Almost anything would be an improvement over the detail level of the current in-game Negh'var (which reminds me, we can see that the player and NPC models of the K't'inga look swapped, is the same happening for the other KDF ships or are they just at the 'quality' of NPC?)
  • drowrulesupremedrowrulesupreme Member Posts: 692 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    misterde3 wrote: »
    One minor note on the name (not directed to anyone in particular): "Voodieh" is to voDleH what Kronos is to Qo'noS: the same only once in Klingon and once in English writing.

    I officially love you :D
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  • notapwefannotapwefan Member Posts: 1,138 Arc User
    edited October 2013
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  • misterde3misterde3 Member Posts: 4,195 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    dontdrunkimshoot wrote: »
    its important to remember that the kdf is a collection of feudal houses, not a unified people, government and military. ships are commissioned by great houses, and used for their own interests, and when needed they are used to fight for the whole of the empire.

    so, ships arent as cut and dry class wise. examples of gowran's negvar showing up in end game just shows that at least that house had non decontented neghvars built.

    I'm not entirely sure how that's relevant in this particular case.
    Unless there are yards and the parts to build a ship in place the houses wouldn't be able to abtain these ships no matter what.
    So there must already be an industry in place that builds enough (just as an example) underslung guns to make it possible to construct and maintain these ships.
    If the Klingons as a whole didn't see any value in the design the houses could want the ships but they can't buy what can't be produced.;)
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