New details on the "cruiser skills" now posted... seriously?

rodentmaster · October 2013

So you take away the role of the science ships rather than actually balance the science skills back to the healer class?

Instead of doing THIS to a class that ALREADY can tank and dish out tons of firepower (cruisers), how about you actually make sci ships effective at their healing/buff/debuff skills for which they are included into the game! Healer/tank/attacker, those are the 3 classes. You can blur the lines a bit but you've gone mental.

You nerfed the healer class into oblivion. That leaves tank/attacker... but now you're making those into one overpowered unbalanced class where a super heavy tank can put out more firepower than the best attackers, with no drawbacks (especially now considering the turn rate boost skill you added to cruisers). Apparently the only thing that matters in this game is pure escort DPS. Even escorts can tank serious amounts now, having more hull than some KDF battlecruisers! You must think that the only way to play this game is in an escort, so you've removed sci from the game, converted all cruisers to be beefed up escorts, oh and while you were at it you removed all weaknesses from the escort classes -- gave them super hulls, 1.2+ shield modifiers in some cases, 5 forward weapons, 5 tac console slots...

You just keep tossing all semblence of balance out the window, Cryptic.

khayuung · October 2013

Show me a cruiser that can shoot TR3 or GW3, then I'll agree with you.

rodentmaster · October 2013

Show me a TR3 or a GW3 that does a damn to make it WORTH slotting. They're a joke. Almost all sci skills are right now. Like I said they've been nerfed into oblivion. Instead, a cruiser can heal you in any way needed with ENG skills and still do more damage, INCLUDING immobilization (EWP), Bypassing shields (DEM), controlling agro (aceton beam) and a number of other things -- that they all do FAR better than a sci ship does.

Sci is pretty much useless at this point. Even the so-called improvements are improving the low-end skills more, skills that a cruiser might be able to slot in their lower SCI boff slots. The highest of the best spec'd and equipped sci ships is a pale comparison to what a basic cruiser setup can do, not only in weapons, but in agro control, tanking, healing, etc.

Hell my TAC alternate with an escort often cross-heals more than most cruisers in this game. Escorts are more than capable of being healers, tankers, and doing all the DPS. Now cruisers are merging with escorts and there's a single hybrid class with NO weaknesses, NO drawbacks, NO balance, and NO reason to play any other way.

Cryptic has indeed thrown all pretense, all hint, all past shreds, of "balance" out the window with this ship and this new "cruiser" feature set.

kintisho · October 2013

Tykens and Gwell have recently been buffed to scale correctly with their synergies... Actual holds are back.. theyve been working towards making all of the ships useful again apparently. And to say sci is not viable is a mistake... wish I had saved the link about cheese... My wells can manipulate the world out of an escort or cruiser...... We may yet end up with balance after all, be patient and see.

wrwf · October 2013

rodentmaster wrote: »

Show me a TR3 or a GW3 that does a damn to make it WORTH slotting. They're a joke. Almost all sci skills are right now. Like I said they've been nerfed into oblivion. Instead, a cruiser can heal you in any way needed with ENG skills and still do more damage, INCLUDING immobilization (EWP), Bypassing shields (DEM), controlling agro (aceton beam) and a number of other things -- that they all do FAR better than a sci ship does.

Sci is pretty much useless at this point. Even the so-called improvements are improving the low-end skills more, skills that a cruiser might be able to slot in their lower SCI boff slots. The highest of the best spec'd and equipped sci ships is a pale comparison to what a basic cruiser setup can do, not only in weapons, but in agro control, tanking, healing, etc.

Hell my TAC alternate with an escort often cross-heals more than most cruisers in this game. Escorts are more than capable of being healers, tankers, and doing all the DPS. Now cruisers are merging with escorts and there's a single hybrid class with NO weaknesses, NO drawbacks, NO balance, and NO reason to play any other way.

Cryptic has indeed thrown all pretense, all hint, all past shreds, of "balance" out the window with this ship and this new "cruiser" feature set.

Most sci seem a joke because most players think bidimensionallly instead of thinking tridimensional. Wonder why escorts are so popular... The only thing I agree on with anyone is... make cannon dps en par With beam dps. Was talking to some mates the other day about Picard's deborgification. the battle against the cube where he orders the fleet to fire on a seemingly random location on the cube. Why not give a Beam Array: Focused fire ability to tacts also and maybe see a more even distribution of weapon setups and set uses, I mean I hardly see anyone using the nukara space set. Lets face it be it in pvp or pve if you want to focus down someone with a pack of them around you, fire at will will not help you in anyway or form.

rodentmaster · October 2013

I'm aware of the coming changes. I'm also aware that they are not going to change the inherrent problems with sci as a class: it's utter weak damage and inability to help a team in the face of a far stronger and more helpful cruiser.

Those changes may add a bit more pull but the damage is still atrociously low. The HEALING output, the BUFF/DEBUFF options, the area effect skills to make up for this lack of DPS are totally lacking. The other classes do more with less, negating any need (EVER) for a sci captain in any engagement.

And yes, I say this speaking as somebody that has fully decked out a sci captain and sci ship and knows first-hand. This is also something that happened long ago. Sci ships used to actually be useful, once upon a pre-nerf STO time. As time and as Cryptic progress, this has completely changed.

Cryptic: Either remove sci altogether or stop making it irrelevant!

kirisee · October 2013

khayuung wrote: »

Show me a cruiser that can shoot TR3 or GW3, then I'll agree with you.

I run mostly sci's in sci boats....those skill are weak at best...you want to try again? and yes....i do have sci/sci boats that can put out 7k dps...but that was a hell of alot of work to get that hmmm...ok even

artfulmerkage · October 2013

I would expect Scis to receive something soon.

kirisee · October 2013

kintisho wrote: »

Tykens and Gwell have recently been buffed to scale correctly with their synergies... Actual holds are back.. theyve been working towards making all of the ships useful again apparently. And to say sci is not viable is a mistake... wish I had saved the link about cheese... My wells can manipulate the world out of an escort or cruiser...... We may yet end up with balance after all, be patient and see.

I'm waiting...all of my 8 sci captains are waiting...we are getting a bit of love...but it's nowhere NEAR enough..let me do my job as a sci...let me hold, debuff and buff...it's all i want...let me do my job well for a change.

talzerotwo · October 2013

@opfunny how u basically said all the things that an engineer did, but replaced them with science captain... Well most things. That said, the new ship is barely all that different from the fleet excel or assault cruiser. Now i know you mention that this is in relation to its team aoe abilities, but really its no different from team bats and whatnot. The only reason sci is preferred in the healing role is because of the subneuc it can provide to aid tacs on the team when it comes to taking down a target. The ship abilities change nothing in regards to class. Rather it brings the focus back to cruisers as being the backbone of fleets. In this case its only a battle cruiser and not a full on cruiser. Bringing back the engies .
If you honestly think that sci is underloved and weak, then youre doing it wrong.

Dont worry be happy.

mimey2 · October 2013

I agree with Tal. If anything sci still has a purpose more than an engineer. Everyone can have super-high natural resists, heals, and passives anymore due to power creep. Guess who needed that the least? Engineers. Guess who benefited the most? Tacs and scis.

I will go so far as to say that space PvP has and still is, a science captain's game. Space PvE is a tac captain's game. Ground PvP is...fairly equal for all three. And finally ground PvE I'd say is also fairly equal between the three (though I'd argue at least a couple focused engineers would be a highly efficient means of beating most ground PvE content).

Besides, cruisers =/= engineers, and sci ships =/= science captains. Anybody can fly anything.

Also, in regards to healing, most cruisers are decent healers, but a lack of sci slots hurts their sci-heals most of the time. Which is why engy/sci hybrids are generally better healers. Ships like the Fleet Ambassador, Odyssey, or Recluse, etc are better than more 'pure' engy ships like the Gal-R.

daan2006 · October 2013

JHAS like to have a word with you :rolleyes:

valdores03 · October 2013

I still fly sci ships, I also fly cruisers. Sci ships are NOT useless. I can still heal, keep escorts and cruisers up, use TBR3 and GW3 for CC. Sci ships isnt about just plain shooting DPS out, its about playing smart and supporting your team mates. Cruisers do a similar role, just lesser on the CC. I love all the ships in game and have no issues as the idea behind STO is that you can fly any ship you like. No one is forcing you at gun point to fly a science ship or a cruiser or an escort. Pick something you will enjoy and stop ******** about it. If not go play WOW.

daan2006 · October 2013

valdores03 wrote: »

If not go play WOW.

wow just gave me a call and said they are good keep your QQer base

valdores03 · October 2013

daan2006 wrote: »

wow just gave me a call and said they are good keep your QQer base

Hahahah!! TRIBBLE, then go play SWTOR and QQ there.

feiqa · October 2013

I don't know. Since the new descriptions in LoR I have found running Science to be easier as I properly build my sci captains. I can slow or hold multiple ships in stf's with gw1 let alone 2 or 3. My science based holographic fleet adds firepower to engagements. Keeping myself to dual beams and turrets means my science ships have their emitters and weapons pointed in the same direction. I do respectable crowd control. Decent damage. and modest healing. All from a small and relatively weak ship.

thecosmic1 · October 2013

daan2006 wrote: »

wow just gave me a call and said they are good keep your QQer base

Are you sure it was WoW that called you and not someone pretending to be WoW? They're down like 4 million Subscribers and I can't believe they'd not like to have you.

rodentmaster · October 2013

Wow... so all you trolls just REALLY want your avenger don't you? You ignore the constant repetitive changes Cryptic has been making to the sci class for years, just so you get your massively OP new ship. Yay, whee, okay I get it. You don't give a TRIBBLE. Stop QQ to me and pretending to be so glib. You're not being clever. You're deflecting the issues.

orondis · October 2013

The only one trolling here is you.

As for GW it's my new favourite ability in PvP. Virtually the entire opposing team was stuck in one grav well or another through every match.

jellico1 · October 2013

rodentmaster wrote: »

So you take away the role of the science ships rather than actually balance the science skills back to the healer class?

Instead of doing THIS to a class that ALREADY can tank and dish out tons of firepower (cruisers), how about you actually make sci ships effective at their healing/buff/debuff skills for which they are included into the game! Healer/tank/attacker, those are the 3 classes. You can blur the lines a bit but you've gone mental.

You nerfed the healer class into oblivion. That leaves tank/attacker... but now you're making those into one overpowered unbalanced class where a super heavy tank can put out more firepower than the best attackers, with no drawbacks (especially now considering the turn rate boost skill you added to cruisers). Apparently the only thing that matters in this game is pure escort DPS. Even escorts can tank serious amounts now, having more hull than some KDF battlecruisers! You must think that the only way to play this game is in an escort, so you've removed sci from the game, converted all cruisers to be beefed up escorts, oh and while you were at it you removed all weaknesses from the escort classes -- gave them super hulls, 1.2+ shield modifiers in some cases, 5 forward weapons, 5 tac console slots...

You just keep tossing all semblence of balance out the window, Cryptic.

Science ships have a lot of very weak ships in there line up and a few that are very strong on the fed side

I agree the 3 classes should be more apart from each other in this aspect

using escorts as a base for hull and shields

Science should have X2 hull points of escorts ...the ships are bigger
Science ships should hav X2 shield points ........the ships are bigger

Cruisers should be 3X escorts in hull and and shields

For my Defiant to have almost the same hull points of a galaxy class is not right

I have DPS Tank Sci character and it can match most any cruiser in the tank role and has more Dps than the cruisers while also controling crownds effectivily

In PvE a lot of Sci powers are useless i agree and they should be fixed but a few are also quite powerdul

We need 11.5 % base crit chance is what the feds and klingons need to equal our Romulan characters firepower

gthaatar · October 2013

Personally I like where they're going with this, because now engineers will have more of a point as a command-type class rather than just a straight tank (which outside of PVE tends to be mostly pointless imo).

mandoknight89 · October 2013

gthaatar wrote: »

Personally I like where they're going with this, because now engineers will have more of a point as a command-type class rather than just a straight tank (which outside of PVE tends to be mostly pointless imo).

No, Engineers are still tanks. Cruisers are becoming command ships, but Engineers don't benefit from this any more than Tac or Sci would (some would argue that they benefit less, once again).

red01999 · October 2013

mandoknight89 wrote: »

No, Engineers are still tanks. Cruisers are becoming command ships, but Engineers don't benefit from this any more than Tac or Sci would (some would argue that they benefit less, once again).

If they are tanks, then they benefit from the threat generation option, as well as the bonuses they provide to themselves from the commands even if they aren't near anybody. Arguably the weapon command option helps them in other ways; for instance, while they have high levels of power production, if the power consumption for the weapons drops they can allocate more to other systems and still maintain 125 for weapon power, or close to it.

I don't see any class that would NOT benefit from these commands, really.

undyingzero · October 2013

What bothers me about these new auras is the fact that they sort of effectively nullify the Sci Captain ability Dampening Field, since one of the Auras you can choose gives your shields hardness, and IIRC Dampening Field only reduces damage to the hull.

I'd be pretty happy if Sci captain ability cooldowns were lowered, myself.

arctcwolf · October 2013

last i checked, the nebula class is definitely cruiser sized, so why wont it be given cruiser commands?

It also appears that the lockbox ships arent getting any love either whether they are the proper sizing or not. why shouldnt the cardassian ship get commands?

The avenger looks to take on the chimera in terms of size and class.

chimera is more tac oriented in boffs, avenger is more eng oriented in boffs. avenger has 1 more weapon slot. both will get fleet versions in the near future, if not out already.

what this "skill set" has done is bring the grindable, fleet purchasable ships closer to the lobi, lockbox, zen ships, as well as the romulan ships that have been OP from LoR. why now should anyone grind for a JHDC or JHEC when the FAHCR has now been made arguably the best ship in the federation fleet?

I'd argue that when fleet chimera comes out, it will be able to stand toe to toe with fleet avenger and win 4 out of 5 times. BTW, if any ships should share synergy, it should be chimera and avenger with their weapon system mods, creating a much more efficient system when combining both unique consoles.

baudl · October 2013

arctcwolf wrote: »

last i checked, the nebula class is definitely cruiser sized, so why wont it be given cruiser commands?

It also appears that the lockbox ships arent getting any love either whether they are the proper sizing or not. why shouldnt the cardassian ship get commands?

The avenger looks to take on the chimera in terms of size and class.

chimera is more tac oriented in boffs, avenger is more eng oriented in boffs. avenger has 1 more weapon slot. both will get fleet versions in the near future, if not out already.

what this "skill set" has done is bring the grindable, fleet purchasable ships closer to the lobi, lockbox, zen ships, as well as the romulan ships that have been OP from LoR. why now should anyone grind for a JHDC or JHEC when the FAHCR has now been made arguably the best ship in the federation fleet?

I'd argue that when fleet chimera comes out, it will be able to stand toe to toe with fleet avenger and win 4 out of 5 times. BTW, if any ships should share synergy, it should be chimera and avenger with their weapon system mods, creating a much more efficient system when combining both unique consoles.

the nebula has sensor analasys and subsystem targeting...true that in size it is more a cruiser, but that doesn't change that it is a science ship 100%.

"cruiser" in this game means COMMANDER ENGINEERING...those ships are entitled to cruiser commands, none of the hybrids have that specific characterisitc, for that reason they are not "cruisers" in the game called STAR TREK ONLINE.

hereticknight085 · October 2013

Should also be noted that lock box ships don't need any love. They are powerful enough as is. As for the Galor? It's fine as is. It still has the highest shield mod, turn rate, and inertia rating of all of the cruisers in game. No love needed there.

capnshadow27 · October 2013

To the OP and Naysayers of the Avenger.

Stuff it. For Serious.

These Commands are EPIC for cruisers. Once they roll out to the rest of the cruisers at least.

The reduction to firepower is great for beams.

The bonus to turn is great for slower cruisers.

The increased threat will be great for tanking cruisers.

Really these are good and take NOTHING AWAY FROM SCIENCE AT ALL.

/endrant

nickcastleton · October 2013

i strongly disagree that sci captains are useless.

while i cant vouch for pvp for STF my fleet nebula is a effective crowd controller using tractor repulse and gravity well you can push spheres away from the nanite transformers push assimilated klingon ships away from the kang and push probes away from the vortex, then using gravity well on them stops them dead in their tracks and gives cruisers and escorts time to do their thing.

this plus the photonic fleet makes me feel that a sci is rather useful (and i have found that sometimes a lack of a sci ship can cost us the bonus)

baudl · October 2013

nickcastleton wrote: »

i strongly disagree that sci captains are useless.

while i cant vouch for pvp for STF my fleet nebula is a effective crowd controller using tractor repulse and gravity well you can push spheres away from the nanite transformers push assimilated klingon ships away from the kang and push probes away from the vortex, then using gravity well on them stops them dead in their tracks and gives cruisers and escorts time to do their thing.

this plus the photonic fleet makes me feel that a sci is rather useful (and i have found that sometimes a lack of a sci ship can cost us the bonus)

you say that science captains aren't useless, and to make the point you describe what your science ship can do...apples and oranges

sci ship doesn't mean you need a sci captain.

while you can crowd controle stuff, an escort or a dps cruiser can destroy them in the same timeframe.
so, yes...a sci ship isn't useless, only much less effective at actually finishing the mission instead of prolonging it.
in the fleet alert, where you need to defend freighters that is totally legit and effective, but when you actually need to kill stuff to accomplish the mission (99% of the PVE content) sci ships and sci boff abilities are not effective enough.

ever tried a sci in an sci heavy escort for STFs? you got everything you mentioned for crowd controle and the dmg to eliminate them by yourself in seconds.
infact, you don't even need some CC abilities, because low health enemies die that quickly without the support of a second player.

i personally think the breen cruiser is THE best ship for that kind of playstyle...packs everything you can wish for in a sci ship (grav well, TBR, HE1, TSS1)...everything essential of an escort (dual cannons, turnrate, 4 tac console slots)...and 8 weapons like a cruiser.
another option is the tal'shiar destroyer, though that one is slightly different/weaker, imo.

so, sci captains are surely not useless, but pure sci ships are vastly more difficult and inferior for the majority of the PVE content.
and playing a sci captain does not automatically mean you need to fly a sci ship, infact that is the least preferable combo.

New details on the "cruiser skills" now posted... seriously?

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