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How any ship in the federation can have a cloaking device legally

waveofthefuturewaveofthefuture Member Posts: 97 Arc User
edited October 2013 in Star Trek Online General Discussion
So, your wondering, how does this work? The treaty with the federation that the romulans have prevents them from having cloaking devices. Yes, the treaty of algeron is famous for that. But what you didn't know is that the new romulans the federation is fighting for are not the old romulan guard.

Sela and her consort are the official government of the romulan people, dispite their "crimes" which are totally unpermissable. But, since the romulans decided to go war with the federation, the treaty of algeron need not apply to federation. The treaty was the treaty signed to keep peace, and this state of war, the treaty is broken.

So remove the restictions on cloaking, and just allow players to purchase it in whatever format they desire.

A regular cloak

A battle cloak

A regular phase cloak

A battle phase cloak

And lastly, just a phase.

Why not?
Post edited by waveofthefuture on

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    thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    The Federation President stated that the Federation would honor the Treaty even though the Romulan Empire was in disarray. This is from the Path to 2409.

    Beyond that the Federation now has 3 ships that can use a Cloak. Do we really need more? The Federation really isn't a cloaking conglomerate in the IP. It's bad enough we're becoming Carriers Online, do we need to be Cloaking Carriers Online too? Why don't we save that for when Cryptic loses the Star Trek license and decides to convert STO into a generic SciFi game. :)
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
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    jorantomalakjorantomalak Member Posts: 7,133 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    waveofthefuture wrote: »
    So, your wondering, how does this work? The treaty with the federation that the romulans have prevents them from having cloaking devices. Yes, the treaty of algeron is famous for that. But what you didn't know is that the new romulans the federation is fighting for are not the old romulan guard.

    Sela and her consort are the official government of the romulan people, dispite their "crimes" which are totally unpermissable. But, since the romulans decided to go war with the federation, the treaty of algeron need not apply to federation. The treaty was the treaty signed to keep peace, and this state of war, the treaty is broken.

    So remove the restictions on cloaking, and just allow players to purchase it in whatever format they desire.

    A regular cloak

    A battle cloak

    A regular phase cloak

    A battle phase cloak

    And lastly, just a phase.

    Why not?

    The RSE and federation are not at war

    Its the KDF and federation who are at war

    so the question is does the federation

    1) Recognise the sela lead RSE as the legitimete romulan government and alienate the new romulan republic?

    2) Not recognise the sela lead RSE and risk an all out war with them for violating the treaty of algeron.

    so you see this is a percarious situation atm for the federation either way its not going to end well but as of this time the federation is not at war with the RSE.
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    misterde3misterde3 Member Posts: 4,195 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    waveofthefuture wrote: »
    Sela and her consort are the official government of the romulan people, dispite their "crimes" which are totally unpermissable. But, since the romulans decided to go war with the federation, the treaty of algeron need not apply to federation. The treaty was the treaty signed to keep peace, and this state of war, the treaty is broken.

    What war? Seriously, what war?
    The Federation is only at war with the Klingons.
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    neoakiraiineoakiraii Member Posts: 7,468 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    For the love of Q, even when you get another ship with a cloak, you want more and strike like vultures.
    GwaoHAD.png
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    thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    neoakiraii wrote: »
    For the love of Q, even when you get another ship with a cloak, you want more and strike like vultures.
    Just you wait until the Cardassian Faction gets here and I see you demanding Cloaks on their ships! :D
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
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    waveofthefuturewaveofthefuture Member Posts: 97 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Ok then. Bad idea.
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    neoakiraiineoakiraii Member Posts: 7,468 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    Just you wait until the Cardassian Faction gets here and I see you demanding Cloaks on their ships! :D

    Of course ................
    GwaoHAD.png
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    lterlter Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    The Federation is trully at war with the klingons, other than in the first episodes, and ker'rat...?
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    neoakiraiineoakiraii Member Posts: 7,468 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    The War is so bad TRIBBLE that no one can see the War happening because everyone's power level is OVER 9000!!!!!!!! :eek:
    GwaoHAD.png
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    erei1erei1 Member Posts: 4,081 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    lter wrote: »
    The Federation is trully at war with the klingons, other than in the first episodes, and ker'rat...?
    Officially, yes. And we are sent to others front after the first chapter. We don't know what happen on the KDF/fed frontlines.

    However, considering the latest news, when you finish all the episodes, it's stupid they continue to wage war.
    In the last episode,


    KDF and fed (and now rom) makes a join operation to make contact and peace with the Undines (remember, Undines infiltration is the main reason why the war started). And we learn the Undines were manipulated by Iconians to provoke the war between the great factions.
    So, everyone knows the war is the direct consequence of another faction. Everyone knows the main goal of it is to weaken us, so they can conquer us easily. And yet, we don't stop fighting.


    Not to mention we spend more time in joint operation these days than ever before (Omega, Nukara, and soon the Voth).

    Just as a reminder, the Dominion pushed the KDF and fed to war during the Dominion war, but when the KDF learned they had been manipulated to do so, they stopped the war, and allied themselves with the fed to crush the Dominion.


    So yeah, the war doesn't make any sense now, but it's still there.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    jetwtfjetwtf Member Posts: 1,207
    edited October 2013
    Seriously? Does anyone actualy know what the treaty of Algeron was? It was not about cloaking devices but about the Romulan nuetral zone mainly, cloaking devices was a small part of it and not the main. The romulan nuetral zone does not exhist anymore along with the RSE after the battle with the empress when she was dragged through an iconian gateway. the RSE is now recognized as the Tal Shiar and there is no treaty with the Tal Shiar. That battle effectivly voided and ended any and all RSE treaties.

    Yes in the path to 2409 the president said the treaty willl be upheld after the destruction of Romulus when the RSE still exhisted but obviously you are not going to uphold a treaty with something that does not exhist. It is in the history books ofcourse but is just that... History.
    Join Date: Nobody cares.
    "I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
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    neoakiraiineoakiraii Member Posts: 7,468 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    jetwtf wrote: »
    Seriously? Does anyone actualy know what the treaty of Algeron was? It was not about cloaking devices but about the Romulan nuetral zone mainly, cloaking devices was a small part of it and not the main. The romulan nuetral zone does not exhist anymore along with the RSE after the battle with the empress when she was dragged through an iconian gateway. the RSE is now recognized as the Tal Shiar and there is no treaty with the Tal Shiar. That battle effectivly voided and ended any and all RSE treaties.

    Yes in the path to 2409 the president said the treaty willl be upheld after the destruction of Romulus when the RSE still exhisted but obviously you are not going to uphold a treaty with something that does not exhist. It is in the history books ofcourse but is just that... History.

    You're still stuck with 3 ships that can cloak.
    GwaoHAD.png
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    tekehdtekehd Member Posts: 2,032 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    waveofthefuture wrote: »
    But, since the romulans decided to go war with the federation, the treaty of algeron need not apply to federation.

    We Romulans are not at war with the federation..... I mean, I have exchange officers from starfleet serving aboard my Scimitar for crying out loud. Where did you get this idea that we are at war?
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    misterde3misterde3 Member Posts: 4,195 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    jetwtf wrote: »
    Seriously? Does anyone actualy know what the treaty of Algeron was? It was not about cloaking devices but about the Romulan nuetral zone mainly, cloaking devices was a small part of it and not the main. The romulan nuetral zone does not exhist anymore along with the RSE after the battle with the empress when she was dragged through an iconian gateway. the RSE is now recognized as the Tal Shiar and there is no treaty with the Tal Shiar. That battle effectivly voided and ended any and all RSE treaties.

    Yes in the path to 2409 the president said the treaty willl be upheld after the destruction of Romulus when the RSE still exhisted but obviously you are not going to uphold a treaty with something that does not exhist. It is in the history books ofcourse but is just that... History.

    The RSE is still there. The Neutral one border is still on the sector map. Even with Sela gone, the government still exists. Who runs it at this point has not been revealed but we'll see.

    Treaties don't disappear with their governement leaders.
    "The Treaty Between the United States of America and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics on the Elimination of Their Intermediate-Range and Shorter-Range Missiles" signed in 1987 is still in effect today even though Reagan is dead, Gorbachew is no lnger in power and the Soviet Union no longer exists.
    As long as there is a legitimate successor state the treaty remains.
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    daan2006daan2006 Member Posts: 5,346 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    The Federation President stated that the Federation would honor the Treaty even though the Romulan Empire was in disarray. This is from the Path to 2409.

    Beyond that the Federation now has 3 ships that can use a Cloak. Do we really need more? The Federation really isn't a cloaking conglomerate in the IP. It's bad enough we're becoming Carriers Online, do we need to be Cloaking Carriers Online too? Why don't we save that for when Cryptic loses the Star Trek license and decides to convert STO into a generic SciFi game. :)

    i want my Battlestar Pegasus!!!!! dang nab it
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    swimwear off risa not fixed
    system Lord Baal is dead
    macronius wrote: »
    This! Their ability to outdo their own failures is quite impressive. If only this power could be harnessed for good.
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    red01999red01999 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    I would wager that (hopefully) the Federation grew a brain and somehow managed some legal work-around to allow for the cloaking devices. This would make sense, as they are currently at war with the Klingon Empire, and the state of the Romulans does not suggest that there is much to gain by upholding the treaty. As these are the powers with cloaks, and as such likely the ones that have the most invested in the Federation continuing to shoot themselves in the foot, continuing to honor the treaty stipulations is foolish at best.

    Otherwise, I would hope that the Federation President is the one who gets to write the letters home to all the dead Starfleet officers: "I'm sorry that your son/daughter was killed in the prime of their lives, but let it be known that their sacrifice upheld an obscure moral point in maintaining a treaty against two factions that are trying to conquer and/or outright destroy us all. I'm sure this will more than make up for the loss."
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    thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    red01999 wrote: »
    I would wager that (hopefully) the Federation grew a brain and somehow managed some legal work-around to allow for the cloaking devices. This would make sense, as they are currently at war with the Klingon Empire, and the state of the Romulans does not suggest that there is much to gain by upholding the treaty. As these are the powers with cloaks, and as such likely the ones that have the most invested in the Federation continuing to shoot themselves in the foot, continuing to honor the treaty stipulations is foolish at best.

    Otherwise, I would hope that the Federation President is the one who gets to write the letters home to all the dead Starfleet officers: "I'm sorry that your son/daughter was killed in the prime of their lives, but let it be known that their sacrifice upheld an obscure moral point in maintaining a treaty against two factions that are trying to conquer and/or outright destroy us all. I'm sure this will more than make up for the loss."
    The Federation has to stand for moral integrity - just as Picard did when he made the Romulans aware that the Federation had the Phase Cloak.

    Beyond that we don't need a war with what's left of the Romulan Empire when we already have a war with the Klingon Empire, the Borg, and we're dealing with an Undine infestation - not to mention all that is going on with the Iconians.

    There will be a lot more body bags if we start a war with the RSE too.
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
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    daan2006daan2006 Member Posts: 5,346 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    There will be a lot more body bags if we start a war with the RSE too.

    you mean the RR dont you?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    swimwear off risa not fixed
    system Lord Baal is dead
    macronius wrote: »
    This! Their ability to outdo their own failures is quite impressive. If only this power could be harnessed for good.
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    shpoksshpoks Member Posts: 6,967 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Is it that part of the month again already? :rolleyes:
    HQroeLu.jpg
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    daan2006daan2006 Member Posts: 5,346 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    shpoks wrote: »
    Is it that part of the month again already? :rolleyes:

    in sto its always that part of the month :P
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    swimwear off risa not fixed
    system Lord Baal is dead
    macronius wrote: »
    This! Their ability to outdo their own failures is quite impressive. If only this power could be harnessed for good.
  • Options
    jetwtfjetwtf Member Posts: 1,207
    edited October 2013
    misterde3 wrote: »
    The RSE is still there. The Neutral one border is still on the sector map. Even with Sela gone, the government still exists. Who runs it at this point has not been revealed but we'll see.

    Treaties don't disappear with their governement leaders.
    "The Treaty Between the United States of America and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics on the Elimination of Their Intermediate-Range and Shorter-Range Missiles" signed in 1987 is still in effect today even though Reagan is dead, Gorbachew is no lnger in power and the Soviet Union no longer exists.
    As long as there is a legitimate successor state the treaty remains.

    The RSE government is gone and what remains of the once RSE is recognized as tal Shiar by the federation, romulan republic, and klingon empire. Thus no treaty and the border is still marked simply as the edge of federation space which is why we can fly right over the border without having to have T3 diplomacy/marauding or get special permission. If the treaty stood we wouldnt be able to cross the border without special circumstances. You cannot have a treaty and not have a treaty just to fit how you personaly want it to fit and thats exactly what you are trying to do here.

    Oh and for Federation ships that would be allowed a cloak under the treaty when the treaty still stood would be exactly 1 ship and that single lone ship is The Defiant. No other ships was loaned a cloak and given permission to use them not even another of the defiant class. So more evidence that the treaty ended while leveling past the romulan content because the fed ships that have a cloak are T5.

    As for US and russia treaties, That does not apply here because the Russian government that took over during the fall of the USSR was recognized in the United Nations as being the same ruling body as for all treaties and position within the United Nations. A better example would be Somalia when it's government collapsed and was overun, all treaties ceased to exhist with the old government.
    Join Date: Nobody cares.
    "I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
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    foundrelicfoundrelic Member Posts: 1,380 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    jetwtf wrote: »
    ...exhist...


    Exist.


    It's Exist. Sorry but that's popped up too many times in your recent posts.
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    iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    So, your wondering, how does this work?

    No, I wasn't.

    The Federation pays as much or as little lip service to the Treaty of Algeron as it wants to. The amendment to the treaty in DS9 didn't stop Sisko from using the cloaking device in situations that violated that amendment on multiple occasions, and noone cared.

    So noone should care now. We just have to pretend like we do. Which means limiting the number of ships that can cloak.
    ExtxpTp.jpg
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    daan2006daan2006 Member Posts: 5,346 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    iconians wrote: »
    No, I wasn't.

    The Federation pays as much or as little lip service to the Treaty of Algeron as it wants to. The amendment to the treaty in DS9 didn't stop Sisko from using the cloaking device in situations that violated that amendment on multiple occasions, and noone cared.

    So noone should care now. We just have to pretend like we do. Which means limiting the number of ships that can cloak.

    more like romulans didnt know ds9 was big for keeping stuff from the romulans aka its a dead FAKE!!!!! senator
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    swimwear off risa not fixed
    system Lord Baal is dead
    macronius wrote: »
    This! Their ability to outdo their own failures is quite impressive. If only this power could be harnessed for good.
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    khayuungkhayuung Member Posts: 1,876 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Sometimes, I think the Mirror Universe would be such a fun place to play. Unlimited everything. Everyone can cheese and are trying to outcheese one another. Betrayals left and right. Rule of the richest!

    ...

    ...wait, isn't that EVE? :D

    "Last Engage! Magical Girl Origami-san" is in print! Now with three times more rainbows.

    Support the "Armored Unicorn" vehicle initiative today!

    Thanks for Harajuku. Now let's get a real "Magical Girl" costume!
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    daan2006daan2006 Member Posts: 5,346 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    khayuung wrote: »
    Sometimes, I think the Mirror Universe would be such a fun place to play. Unlimited everything. Everyone can cheese and are trying to outcheese one another. Betrayals left and right. Rule of the richest!

    ...

    ...wait, isn't that EVE? :D

    i thought you was talking about romulans before ya know JJ happen to them :D
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    swimwear off risa not fixed
    system Lord Baal is dead
    macronius wrote: »
    This! Their ability to outdo their own failures is quite impressive. If only this power could be harnessed for good.
  • Options
    mirrorshatnermirrorshatner Member Posts: 149 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    "Legal" doesn't matter with regards to cloaking devices on Federation starships.

    Section 31 does whatever the hell it wants regardless of the rules.

    And Kirk went "undercover" to steal a cloak under Starfleet orders in The Enterprise Incident.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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