Weapon Mods

Comments

• hereticknight085 Member Posts: 3,783 Arc User

  October 2013 edited October 2013

  Oddly enough I actually understood most of this. Keep it up Thissler!

  It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.

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• virusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User

  October 2013 edited October 2013

  hereticknight085 wrote: »

  Oddly enough I actually understood most of this. Keep it up Thissler!

  
  I still want to reply with "It depends!" - cause Thissler loves when folks do that. But I honestly do believe that it does depend. And if you read what Thissler said - well, you can see that it depends too.
  
  edit: Course, it leaves me wondering about some of the weapon choices Cryptic offers in the game, eh?
  
  Advanced? [Dmg]x3[Acc/CrtD/CrtH]...seriously?
  Crafted? [Dmg]x2[Acc/CrtD/CrtH]...seriously?
  
  Suppose it makes sense to them...they made Elachi Turrets, right?

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• asmodeus451 Member Posts: 257 Arc User

  October 2013 edited October 2013

  so let me see if i can break this down into something easier to understand:
  
  ACC is king, hands down
  
  CrtD is best with high CrtH stats (no surprise there)
  
  DMG will start outperforming CrtD at about 10% CrtH, getting better the lower it gets

  Tenebris lux mea est

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• khayuung Member Posts: 1,876 Arc User

  October 2013 edited October 2013

  Actually, I've taken to recommending [CrtH]x2 or even [CrtH]x3 simply because it increases the number of Placate, Crippling Fire and OWA procs, and I'm sure there will be more to come as the creep increases.
  
  So the onus shifts to needing to reduce the target's def in the team builds I design.

  ---

  
  "Last Engage! Magical Girl Origami-san" is in print! Now with three times more rainbows.
  
  Support the "Armored Unicorn" vehicle initiative today!
  
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• virusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User

  October 2013 edited October 2013

  asmodeus451 wrote: »

  DMG will start outperforming CrtD at about 10% CrtH, getting better the lower it gets

  
  More a case that CrtD will start outperforming Dmg as you approach 10% CrtH.
  
  [Dmg] is a +5% bonus of base/pre-Weapon Power damage. So a single [Dmg] mod would provide the following before Weapon Power:
  
  DHC +8.7
  DC +4.4
  Cannon +3.6
  Turret +2.3
  DBB +6.5
  Array +5.0
  
  With 125 Weapon Power:
  
  DHC +21.5
  DC +11
  Cannon +9
  Turret +5.75/5.8
  DBB +16.25/16.3
  Array +12.5
  
  With APA3, APO3, EPtW1, & Rombush:
  
  DHC +41.15/41.2
  DC +23.1
  Cannon +18.9
  Turret +12.075/12.1
  DBB +34.125/34.1
  Array +26.25/26.3
  
  If your CrtH is painfully low, then CrtD's not going to matter as much since if you don't Crit - Severity simply doesn't matter. Since CrtD is a modifier to your Critical Severity and Critical Severity is a final modifier...once you start to feel comfortable with your CrtH, Dmg is just /facepalm in comparison.
  
  There's going to be that...
  
  CrtH is so low, a little CrtH's not going to matter. Since CrtH doesn't matter, CrtD doesn't matter. So as long as you're comfortable with your Acc, then Dmg would be the best mod...
  
  As long as you're comfortable with your Acc, and your CrtH is at a point that some CrtH would make you comfortable - then the Dmg becomes the worst mod...
  
  As long as you're comfortable with your Acc and your CrtH, then you're going to want the CrtD to pump the damage...and you can't do that with Dmg.
  
  CrtH
  Base 2.5%
  T2 New Rom - Precision +3%
  Tachyokinetic Converter +0.76%
  Assimilated Module +0.92%
  Zero-Point +1.8%
  9 Weapon Specialization +2%
  [CrtH] +2%
  Basic Romulan Operative +1%
  Romulan Operative +1.5%
  Superior Romulan Operative +2%
  
  IMHO, Cryptic needs to take a look at the [Dmg] mod...it's a mod from another time - a different game.

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• dahminus Member Posts: 0 Arc User

  October 2013 edited October 2013

  So...dmg>crith when crith is 10% or less
  
  critd>crith when crith is 10% of critd or less
  
  and acc trumps all when...target is moving, thus having defense?
  
  So...in estfs...fighting a gate/gen/cube, it is better to have that crith/critd ratio than any acc?
  
  Thanks thissler. was a fun read

  Chive on and prosper, eh?
  
  My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree

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• xxxhellspawnyxxx Member Posts: 195 Arc User

  October 2013 edited October 2013

  If you want to play around with your own stats: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=665421
  
  The spreadsheet is not quite up to date but still works fine.

  
  STO-League.com | Weapon Damage Calculator | DPS Web Tools | STO-Center Forums

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• asmodeus451 Member Posts: 257 Arc User

  October 2013 edited October 2013

  dahminus wrote: »

  So...dmg>crith when crith is 10% or less
  
  critd>crith when crith is 10% of critd or less
  
  and acc trumps all when...target is moving, thus having defense?
  
  So...in estfs...fighting a gate/gen/cube, it is better to have that crith/critd ratio than any acc?
  
  Thanks thissler. was a fun read

  
  not quite.
  
  from what i understand, there is something called "Accuracy wraparound"
  
  essentially, if your ACC exceeds the DEF of your target, that extra % is converted into CrtH and CrtD
  
  so if your target has a DEF of 0 (aka. not moving) ALL of you bonus ACC is getting converted

  Tenebris lux mea est

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• hereticknight085 Member Posts: 3,783 Arc User

  October 2013 edited October 2013

  asmodeus451 wrote: »

  not quite.
  
  from what i understand, there is something called "Accuracy wraparound"
  
  essentially, if your ACC exceeds the DEF of your target, that extra % is converted into CrtH and CrtD
  
  so if your target has a DEF of 0 (aka. not moving) ALL of you bonus ACC is getting converted

  
  The only problem here is that acc doesn't convert very strongly to crth and crtd. It's something like 10% acc only adds .1% crit or something really stupidly low like that.

  It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.

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• asmodeus451 Member Posts: 257 Arc User

  October 2013 edited October 2013

  hereticknight085 wrote: »

  The only problem here is that acc doesn't convert very strongly to crth and crtd. It's something like 10% acc only adds .1% crit or something really stupidly low like that.

  
  i've actually been doing some research into it, since i didnt want to post incorrect info
  
  the general consensus is the every 10% ACC over DEF yields 1.25% CrtH and 5% CrtD

  Tenebris lux mea est

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• dahminus Member Posts: 0 Arc User

  October 2013 edited October 2013

  asmodeus451 wrote: »

  i've actually been doing some research into it, since i didnt want to post incorrect info
  
  the general consensus is the every 10% ACC over DEF yields 1.25% CrtH and 5% CrtD

  
  thats a pretty intense conversion...

  Chive on and prosper, eh?
  
  My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree

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• shandypandy Member Posts: 632 Arc User

  October 2013 edited October 2013

  I thought it was for every 10% over 100%?
  
  Eg, def of 50 you'd need acc of 160 to start getting increased critd and critic?

  

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• masterkeychnk5 Member Posts: 0 Arc User

  October 2013 edited October 2013

  Acc has always been king since All the time pre season 3 i played this game.
  
  I was also the first to ever obtain a full Mk XII acc x3 set when they were still very VERY rare

  [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] I am not Snakie, MT is!

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• ussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User

  October 2013 edited October 2013

  So, I have to ask, what has changed for you so dramatically since February?

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• thissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User

  October 2013 edited October 2013

  ussultimatum wrote: »

  So, I have to ask, what has changed for you so dramatically since February?

  
  I'm working on the over time component. I absolutely loath saying "DPS" if only because it leads to misunderstandings.
  
  If you can pick through the wall of text I created you'll see the parts that say things like "its a game of where do I get my mods" and also that it depends on what style of play you are using.
  
  So, if you only ever intend to take one shot and you've robbed your target of all defense before that one shot is taken, and you've already loaded up on your crit hit elsewhere, the best way to maximize what a critical hit will do is Crit D.
  
  So for anyone that said "it depends" it really does.
  
  For instance the Crit H build to maximize procs. Entirely valid.
  Or Crit D to maximize what that one hit will do. Also valid.
  But to do those you need to understand how the hit table and the mods interact.
  
  I'm spending a good bit of focus on how to get maximum output over time for folks without access to maximum gear. IE: People grinding the space rep system that want to actually GET all this great gear that can push your crit rates so high. So the info being presented is much more useful in this form for say, a cannon cruiser vs a BO3 hull popper.
  
  So when you see DMG mods being added on new weps, its because for soooo many players in the game they are the best. And they are best for a long time. When you see CritH added in tandem with CritD, that is so the devs don't imbalance your build. Oh sure they could make every mod combination and let you pick that yourself to maximize your output. That is a fact. But what would the 99% of people that don't read the forums do? Probably be like us and pick willy nilly mods till we learned more.
  
  Yes, 1.25 H and 5.00 D for every 10% of Acc over Def. And if you've never landed a BO3 on a ship that just put it in reverse and hit Omega 3, you haven't lived.
  
  And for anyone interested the PVE helper builds are coming along swimmingly. With generally crappy gear hitting 7k to 10k damage for ESTFs is easy. I know that is NO WHERE near the max you can gain. But I think for a new player with limited access to the gear dedicated PVP/PVE players can get those are great numbers for them to turn out.
  
  Cheers and ty for reading and posting!

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• virusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User

  October 2013 edited October 2013

  thissler wrote: »

  Yes, 1.25 H and 5.00 D for every 10% of Acc over Def.

  
  Hrmm, this aspect has been problematic for me...because of going off of the following from Big Red:
  

  Archived Post wrote: »

  On the flip-side, assume that you still have no inherent Accuracy modifiers, but your target is stopped (and taking a -15% Defense penalty, or -.15), plugging in 1.00 into the Accuracy box, and .85 into the Defense box, you get 0.15 as your Diff score. Since this is positive, you would look in the If Diff Positive box, and get "1.13..." as your result... Meaning you have 'Accuracy Overflow'... You have 100% chance to-hit your target, and, if you look in the lower-right hand portion of the spreadsheet, you can look on the Accuracy Overflow table, and look at the entry for 0.1 (since your overflow is 0.13-ish)... You would gain a little more than 1.25% Critical Chance, and a little more than 5% Critical Severity.

  
  Is that incorrect then?
  
  Because what that is stating is the following:
  
  Acc 10% Def 0%, To-Hit 1.090909091 (109.0909091%), Accuracy Overflow .090909091, CrtH +1.1363636% CrtD +4.5454545%
  
  Whereas, what I believe you're stating (please correct me if I'm wrong) is the following:
  
  Acc 10%, Def 0%, Diff 0.1, CrtH +1.25% CrtD +5.00%
  
  Big Red's explanation always felt off, because of the little chart on that spreadsheet - but it's still what I went by in looking at things.
  
  But here's another example...
  
  Accurate +10%, 9 Targeting +15%, Nukara Console +10%, [Acc]x3 Beams +30%, and well...that's good enough.
  
  vs.
  
  Nothing while Sitting -15%
  
  Acc: 1.65
  Def: 0.85
  
  Diff: 0.8
  
  To-Hit: 1.444444444 (144.4444444%)
  
  So if you go off of what Big Red said, then you're looking at 0.444444444 Accuracy Overflow. So that's giving you +5.56% CrtH and +22.22% CrtD.
  
  If you go off looking at the Diff instead, then you're looking at +10% CrtH and +40% CrtD.
  
  Wee bit of difference there, eh?

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• ussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User

  October 2013 edited October 2013

  thissler wrote: »

  I'm working on the over time component. I absolutely loath saying "DPS" if only because it leads to misunderstandings.

  
  OK, this part at least I can understand as a fair number of players simply use the term DPS to cover everything.
  
  

  thissler wrote: »

  If you can pick through the wall of text I created you'll see the parts that say things like "its a game of where do I get my mods" and also that it depends on what style of play you are using.
  
  So, if you only ever intend to take one shot and you've robbed your target of all defense before that one shot is taken, and you've already loaded up on your crit hit elsewhere, the best way to maximize what a critical hit will do is Crit D.

  
  The issue I find, is that no matter how well planned or timed - when you are running on 45s to 90s decloak cycles in a 5v5, even when you intend to strip your target's defense, something else can throw a wrench in the works.
  
  So for that, generally speaking, ACCx3 will cover you vs. every situation - even when you had "more" than you may have needed for that particular attack because the next attack you might have "just enough" (for example you didn't realize the target had PH, or they are very tightly cycling PH & APO 3 with A2B for optimal coverage).
  
  

  thissler wrote: »

  So for anyone that said "it depends" it really does.

  
  Agreed.
  
  

  thissler wrote:

  For instance the Crit H build to maximize procs. Entirely valid.
  Or Crit D to maximize what that one hit will do. Also valid.
  But to do those you need to understand how the hit table and the mods interact.

  
  
  While I know it's true for damage, I admittedly haven't tested for procs like the rep passive on crit - but higher ACC will lead to more hits, which leads to more Crits landing than actually using CrtH instead of ACC vs. target's whose defense you can't strip for some reason.
  
  
  
  

  thissler wrote: »

  I'm spending a good bit of focus on how to get maximum output over time for folks without access to maximum gear.

  
  An admirable goal.
  
  I usually tell those players to start with MK XI Blue ACCx2 (15k - 20k EC for DHC right now), or MK XI Purple ACCx3 Tetryon or Polaron, as they tend to be inexpensive and don't have any particular issue with any specific shield type (like MACO).

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• thissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User

  October 2013 edited October 2013

  I usually do okay on the one shot thing. I don't want to be exhaustive on the math or the probability here. I do have plenty of evidence backing my tactics. About 8 hours of video. But that's for a certain tactic and scenario. It isn't for running a continual push of in and out of cloak. I do have [Acc]x3 weps. I used them for a long time. I did actually just make a recent play using all my old Mk X Tet Acc weps. Good stuff.
  
  But again, there's no mathematical expression for "something may or may not come up". Besides "whoops".
  
  As this is really only about weapon mods, the most you can increase Acc on Mods is 30%. The actual hit value that gives you is dependant on your targets Def. You can't know what that is, you can generally get an expected range, and that range in the game is very large. As the table isn't linear you gain more hit rate at the top end, and less at the low end. A good figure to use is 6 percent increase in hit rate per 10 percent increase Acc vs Def. Let's pretend I'm horribly and awfully mistaken and that the figure for 3 Acc mods is actually a straight up 30% increase in hit rate. 3 CritH mods will give a 6% increase in Crit Rate.
  
  If your starting CritH was 5% and Hit Rate was 50% you can see you would land 2 or 3 crits per 100 shots.
  
  If you increase your Hit Rate by 30% you would land 4 Crits per 100 shots. Your normal damage would go up quite a bit though.
  
  If you increased your CritH by 6% you would land 5 or 6 Crits per 100 shots. Your damage would increase somewhat.
  
  But again, who would REALLY propose to build a Crit build on wep mods when you can clearly get CritH on other gear? No one would, that's who!
  
  Cheers and ty for posting!
  
  EDIT: Just wanted to be even more clear that although some things are math, some things aren't. I take GREAT pains to practice and make sure all those nasty little things like PH don't just pop up on me. If you're running a continual push it is sort of difficult to do that. When it's time to go it's time to go, I get that, so the ACC build would clearly be superior in that case. So yes I have both and I'm not making a case for 'what one is better' at all, just giving a peek into the workings so people can understand what is going on.
  
  Knowledge is power or some such rubbish.

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• kkthxfalcorchnk2 Member Posts: 5 Arc User

  October 2013 edited October 2013

  Ive always used 3x Acc mods in PvP and I will keep doing so whatever people say.
  My general guideline has always been 'as long as you see your weapons miss more acc can only help your cause'.
  
  It has to be said I probably was the first to have a full polaron mk xii acc x3 back in the days when mk xii drops were very very rare and most ppl still got their fancy weapons from crafting haha.
  
  They always served me well.
  
  
  
  
  My logs in practical matches never gotten me close to 100% but rather 95% ish.
  One or two more weapon mods I wouldnt doubt to get 5x acc weapons if they existed. Even if it was just to counter the super defense on APO etc.
  
  
  Even a build that does tractorbeam -> vape (which mine excels in) there is a chance of a beam overload miss on the target even if hes max hold with tb. Not sure could be server lag or I might fire the BO too fast before the target fully deaccelerated. But also Tractorbeam acts weird with a target often, bonus defense flipping on targt especially with buffed eptE and dampeners these days. All acc is and will always be needed.
  
  
  Let ppl think what they want, i find the 'is acc x3 rly worth it' threads just a repetitive exercise and funny, the answers will all be subjective but most people simply deny they are best because they probably find them not 'worth the price'
  
  
  Honestly you dont need all these calculations to find out acc is king in PvP, gut feeling always excelled in this game.
  
  Oh yeah Acc obviously and logically increased CritH in almost all situations too on top of the most beneficial factor, if target not held, more hits is more crits.
  
  If target is hold thre overflow can kick in depending on how much bonus defense he has left.
  
  
  I gotta give cryptic this, i cant remember i think it was al riveera who once explained in a stoked episode how acc was probably the best for PvP, until this day his predictions were right

  Part of Starfleet 114 division fleet.
  Alexia - Tovan - Yakor

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• mandoknight89 Member Posts: 1,687 Arc User

  October 2013 edited October 2013

  The question isn't always "is [Acc]x3 the best set of mods in the game?"
  
  Sometimes it's "is it really worth my time and EC to spend an extra 5 mil or so per weapon for one last [Acc] mod?"
  
  And the answer there is "not always." [Acc]x2 Elite Disruptors can be a whole lot cheaper than [Acc]x3 standard Disruptors if you have Fleet Credits to burn, and spending millions on optimizing turrets seems like a waste to me. If you need to get the absolute maximum out of your build, then it may be worthwhile to shell out for [Acc]x3... but [Acc]x2 can be "good enough" for someone who is fairly slow at gathering EC, or just starting out.

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• thissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User

  October 2013 edited October 2013

  mandoknight89 wrote: »

  The question isn't always "is [Acc]x3 the best set of mods in the game?"
  
  Sometimes it's "is it really worth my time and EC to spend an extra 5 mil or so per weapon for one last [Acc] mod?"
  
  And the answer there is "not always." [Acc]x2 Elite Disruptors can be a whole lot cheaper than [Acc]x3 standard Disruptors if you have Fleet Credits to burn, and spending millions on optimizing turrets seems like a waste to me. If you need to get the absolute maximum out of your build, then it may be worthwhile to shell out for [Acc]x3... but [Acc]x2 can be "good enough" for someone who is fairly slow at gathering EC, or just starting out.

  
  You can never catch Def with Acc. Never ever ever ever ever ever. Not in STO. Just really can't be done.
  
  Sure all evidence points to a roughly 6% gain in hits per ACC mod. Hits mind you. Not damage.
  
  This means that all else being equal, 30%, or three mods, of ACC will only ever give you a roughly 18% better chance to land spike damage successfully.
  
  Ever.
  
  Robbing Def, or avoiding excess Def when you see it, is the only way to generate consistent spike damage.
  
  ACCx3 is the way to go for consistent damage over time. That and a spacebar. And you're golden.
  
  ACCx2 is likely all the ACC you need on a weapon mod to keep you balanced against at least the passive defense in the game and keep your spike damage landing against those so protected.
  
  And for anyone that's curious, if you've been hit by say a TB and your Bonus Defense is headed south momentarily, try not to hit omega while it is negative. You will briefly zip to even lower levels of defense.
  
  True story. It's multiplicative, not additive. Maybe I'm wrong. Try it out.

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