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Using Mines in ESTF's, repost, Section TWO
tggrinc
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
Using Mines in PVE / SECTION TWO: MINE TYPES: The pros and cons of the few that I use or have tried.
____ This is a repost of my original write up about using mines in PVE. However it was very long and it was recommended by many that I break it down into more digestible chunks. So I have broken it into five sections.
Please note a few things:
1____I know there are a lot of people here on the forums that know a LOT more than I do about ship builds, weapons, procs, bonuses, combos, etc. This information is offered as is. I've actually done all of the things I'm going to be talking about with varying levels of success. I can do enough damage to contribute to the team, I can survive most situations, and, most importantly, I think it's a fun bird to fly.
2____I am not, nor have I ever tried to say that this is the best ever build for ESTF's or any other PVE. But I didn't throw this together last week, run a few ESTFS, make up a bunch of statistics, and then decide to write a book about the magical pill I'd just discovered. I grind dilithium with this build. I regularly get upper tier rewards. I rarely die. I have fun. I'm not special. I'm not a miracle worker, prodigy, or hacker so anyone can do this.
3____This isn't and never was intended for PVP use. While I have used mines in PVP (just to see how they do) opposing players are usually too smart to walk into them, outrun them, or they have BFW or CSV going and the mines get destroyed before they do any damage. They might be helpful if you fly with a fleet and your team is good at creating fur-balls where mines will go unnoticed until they strike. But otherwise this is just for PVE. Specifically ESTF's.
4____When I refer to BOP's I'm also referring to escort class ships on the fed side. Although IMO, BOP's actually make slightly better mine layers because the battle cloak compliments the mines nicely. On the flip side, the Fed escorts have better healing and durability and the Feds have cloaks I've just never used one on that side.
5____While I am in a fleet I'm usually playing pub ESTF's. So I have to rely on myself for survival. So you can do this alone. But if you have peeps you fly with regularly you can make even better use of this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
TABLE OF CONTENTS:
>>>>>>>Section ONE<<<<<<<
General Thoughts
>>>>>>>Section TWO<<<<<<<
Mine types: The pros and cons of the few that I use or have tried.
____Tricobalt
____Plasma
____Photon
____Transphasic
>>>>>>>Section THREE<<<<<<<
Basic Strategies
>>>>>>>Section FOUR<<<<<<<
Mine vs various ship types
Teamwork, Tricobalts, and Spheres
Tractor Beams, Repulsors, and Mines
>>>>>>>Section FIVE<<<<<<<
Mines by Scenario: step by step walkthroughs
>>>>>>>Section TWO<<<<<<<
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
MINE TYPES: The pros and cons of the few that I use or have tried.
TRICOBALTS:
____These are my mainstays and to be honest they're the first ones that I used with any effectiveness. I set them up with Beta III just for a change of pace and their effectiveness prompted me to explore other mine types and how to use mines most effectively in various scenarios.
PROS:
____Damage - Tricobalts deliver a big hit. I'm using MK XII [dmg]x3. But if you really focus on making sure your target's shields are down or will be when the mines strike, [CtrD]x3 can really put up some serious numbers.
____When I say big what do I mean? (I don't use a parser so I'm giving you a ballpark based on what I've seen.) I see 20,000 damage per mine regularly. That's 80,000 damage for one set of four mines. Doing that twice in a minute equals 2,666 damage per second. Add [CrtD]x3 and you get some idea what's possible.
____Multiple target damage - Remember that the same damage is applied to all of the targets in the blast radius. For cubes that doesn't mean much, but for spheres and probes, it can be devastating.
____Singularity proc - Then there is the added possibility of each mine creating a singularity after the explosion. This does the usual gravity well damage and helps with crowd control. In my experience, two singularities in very close proximity are common when a set of tricobalts is used against multiple spheres or probes.
CONS:
____Blowback - You can do massive damage to yourself if you aren't clear of your mines when they blow.
____Before the update early in 2013, I could sit on a target and drop mines every 30 seconds with impunity. But since the update, the Tricobalts do a LOT more damage to my own ship than they used to. AND they can take my systems offline.
____This required a change in tactics. Now I have to run in drop them and run out. The other mine types do not carry this suicidal backlash so you can still sit on your target with any other mine type, if you want to.
____Longer arming timer, slower movement - Tricobalts also have a longer arming timer and move slower once they find a target, making them almost useless against targets that move fast or are not on a fixed vector.
____Time-out blowback - Tricobalts that haven't found a target or otherwise been destroyed detonate with force at the end of their lifetime. This brings the blowback issue back into play.
____If you're camping a probe flight path and putting out mines, either don't use Tricobalts or remember to deploy a new set of mines before your old ones time out and explode.
PLASMA:
____I like these because they are close to photon mines in damage and do more damage over time when the proc hits, which is almost all the time. I regularly expect to see 14x2000 or 28000 points of damage against a healthy target, more against a weakened one. And I almost always see plasma damage afterward.
PROS:
____Decent damage versus other mine types.
____Clear indicator that your proc has hit and is doing damage.
____No blowback issues.
____14 mines builds a huge wall that spheres will try to avoid.
____Ability to target multiple smaller targets if the first target is destroyed.
PHOTON: These do slightly more damage than plasmas, but I prefer the plasmas.
TRANSPHASIC:
____These have more shield penetrating damage, but only do a little more than half the overall damage of other mines with the same mark. The end result is that your not gaining much damage when your target's shields are up, and if your target's shields are weak or down, you're giving up nearly 50% of the damage that you could be doing. So I don't use them.
Chroniton &Tractor Beam:
____These mines might be useful against fast moving spheres and probes. (I haven't tried them.)
____As noted in the title, this refers only to the limited number of mine types I've played with. There is an arsenal of other mine types you can explore.
____As noted in the Tricobalt section, none of the regular (non-tricobalt) mines will cause blowback damage to your ship so you can use them up close or lay them in your own space and not have to worry about moving to a safe distance. (If they do, it's not enough for me to notice.)
If you're interested in reading more:
See SECTION ONE for general thoughts.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=855211
See SECTION THREE for basic strategies regarding mine usage.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=855251
See SECTION FOUR for specific strategies using mines vs specific enemy ships or targets.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=855261
See SECTION FIVE for step by step walkthroughs of how I use mines in specific ESTF's.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=855231
____ This is a repost of my original write up about using mines in PVE. However it was very long and it was recommended by many that I break it down into more digestible chunks. So I have broken it into five sections.
Please note a few things:
1____I know there are a lot of people here on the forums that know a LOT more than I do about ship builds, weapons, procs, bonuses, combos, etc. This information is offered as is. I've actually done all of the things I'm going to be talking about with varying levels of success. I can do enough damage to contribute to the team, I can survive most situations, and, most importantly, I think it's a fun bird to fly.
2____I am not, nor have I ever tried to say that this is the best ever build for ESTF's or any other PVE. But I didn't throw this together last week, run a few ESTFS, make up a bunch of statistics, and then decide to write a book about the magical pill I'd just discovered. I grind dilithium with this build. I regularly get upper tier rewards. I rarely die. I have fun. I'm not special. I'm not a miracle worker, prodigy, or hacker so anyone can do this.
3____This isn't and never was intended for PVP use. While I have used mines in PVP (just to see how they do) opposing players are usually too smart to walk into them, outrun them, or they have BFW or CSV going and the mines get destroyed before they do any damage. They might be helpful if you fly with a fleet and your team is good at creating fur-balls where mines will go unnoticed until they strike. But otherwise this is just for PVE. Specifically ESTF's.
4____When I refer to BOP's I'm also referring to escort class ships on the fed side. Although IMO, BOP's actually make slightly better mine layers because the battle cloak compliments the mines nicely. On the flip side, the Fed escorts have better healing and durability and the Feds have cloaks I've just never used one on that side.
5____While I am in a fleet I'm usually playing pub ESTF's. So I have to rely on myself for survival. So you can do this alone. But if you have peeps you fly with regularly you can make even better use of this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
TABLE OF CONTENTS:
>>>>>>>Section ONE<<<<<<<
General Thoughts
>>>>>>>Section TWO<<<<<<<
Mine types: The pros and cons of the few that I use or have tried.
____Tricobalt
____Plasma
____Photon
____Transphasic
>>>>>>>Section THREE<<<<<<<
Basic Strategies
>>>>>>>Section FOUR<<<<<<<
Mine vs various ship types
Teamwork, Tricobalts, and Spheres
Tractor Beams, Repulsors, and Mines
>>>>>>>Section FIVE<<<<<<<
Mines by Scenario: step by step walkthroughs
>>>>>>>Section TWO<<<<<<<
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
MINE TYPES: The pros and cons of the few that I use or have tried.
TRICOBALTS:
____These are my mainstays and to be honest they're the first ones that I used with any effectiveness. I set them up with Beta III just for a change of pace and their effectiveness prompted me to explore other mine types and how to use mines most effectively in various scenarios.
PROS:
____Damage - Tricobalts deliver a big hit. I'm using MK XII [dmg]x3. But if you really focus on making sure your target's shields are down or will be when the mines strike, [CtrD]x3 can really put up some serious numbers.
____When I say big what do I mean? (I don't use a parser so I'm giving you a ballpark based on what I've seen.) I see 20,000 damage per mine regularly. That's 80,000 damage for one set of four mines. Doing that twice in a minute equals 2,666 damage per second. Add [CrtD]x3 and you get some idea what's possible.
____Multiple target damage - Remember that the same damage is applied to all of the targets in the blast radius. For cubes that doesn't mean much, but for spheres and probes, it can be devastating.
____Singularity proc - Then there is the added possibility of each mine creating a singularity after the explosion. This does the usual gravity well damage and helps with crowd control. In my experience, two singularities in very close proximity are common when a set of tricobalts is used against multiple spheres or probes.
CONS:
____Blowback - You can do massive damage to yourself if you aren't clear of your mines when they blow.
____Before the update early in 2013, I could sit on a target and drop mines every 30 seconds with impunity. But since the update, the Tricobalts do a LOT more damage to my own ship than they used to. AND they can take my systems offline.
____This required a change in tactics. Now I have to run in drop them and run out. The other mine types do not carry this suicidal backlash so you can still sit on your target with any other mine type, if you want to.
____Longer arming timer, slower movement - Tricobalts also have a longer arming timer and move slower once they find a target, making them almost useless against targets that move fast or are not on a fixed vector.
____Time-out blowback - Tricobalts that haven't found a target or otherwise been destroyed detonate with force at the end of their lifetime. This brings the blowback issue back into play.
____If you're camping a probe flight path and putting out mines, either don't use Tricobalts or remember to deploy a new set of mines before your old ones time out and explode.
PLASMA:
____I like these because they are close to photon mines in damage and do more damage over time when the proc hits, which is almost all the time. I regularly expect to see 14x2000 or 28000 points of damage against a healthy target, more against a weakened one. And I almost always see plasma damage afterward.
PROS:
____Decent damage versus other mine types.
____Clear indicator that your proc has hit and is doing damage.
____No blowback issues.
____14 mines builds a huge wall that spheres will try to avoid.
____Ability to target multiple smaller targets if the first target is destroyed.
PHOTON: These do slightly more damage than plasmas, but I prefer the plasmas.
TRANSPHASIC:
____These have more shield penetrating damage, but only do a little more than half the overall damage of other mines with the same mark. The end result is that your not gaining much damage when your target's shields are up, and if your target's shields are weak or down, you're giving up nearly 50% of the damage that you could be doing. So I don't use them.
Chroniton &Tractor Beam:
____These mines might be useful against fast moving spheres and probes. (I haven't tried them.)
____As noted in the title, this refers only to the limited number of mine types I've played with. There is an arsenal of other mine types you can explore.
____As noted in the Tricobalt section, none of the regular (non-tricobalt) mines will cause blowback damage to your ship so you can use them up close or lay them in your own space and not have to worry about moving to a safe distance. (If they do, it's not enough for me to notice.)
If you're interested in reading more:
See SECTION ONE for general thoughts.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=855211
See SECTION THREE for basic strategies regarding mine usage.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=855251
See SECTION FOUR for specific strategies using mines vs specific enemy ships or targets.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=855261
See SECTION FIVE for step by step walkthroughs of how I use mines in specific ESTF's.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=855231
Post edited by tggrinc on
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Comments
Transphasic overall dmg is still almost 1/2 less than what some other other mines offer. So if you use the recommendations in this thread and use mines when your targets shields are weak or down, you're damage potential is significantly less than what it would be with most other mine types. Remember that every damage point lost in the base dmg is multiplied by 14. ( or whatever # of mines you're deploying) So a loss of 100 dmg is actually a loss of 1600 dmg on each attack.
You can do the math on the base dmg x 80% x 14 mines vs all of the other mine types if you like and post the comparison for those considering mine usage to view. But remember to do the same comparison of the base dmg x 14 for when the targets shields are down so they can see the lost dmg potential.
I'm not going to comment on the dmg boost, I can only go by what the weapon specs tell me. Feel free to choose another bonus with whatever mine type you choose. The dmg bonus may have been broken when they nerfed mines way back when. I still use [dmg]x3 mines. Sometimes I alternate with [crtD]x3 on targets with no shields hoping for even bigger numbers.
Lot's of experience and little speculation. I'm sure this would help alot of people.
If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
It's true Transphasic hit for half less damage when shields are down but they also hit for more than triple damage when shields are up. That and it's always fun dropping over 26 Transphasic mines on a target with shields up. You just cannot do that with any other mine type.
I am not sure you are aware but you can shoot Transphasic mines out of front or rear torpedoes with cluster launchers. I often fly x2 rear mines with x2 cluster. So between x2 mines with pattern skill and cluster launchers you can drop a lot of mines at once. 26 per volley if I recall correctly. Used to be more but they nerfed it a little.
I find it really fun playing a pure mine layer ship.
I'm interested in hearing more. My first thought was that the transphasic mines would be the perfect compliment to the tricobalts. (Use transphasics when the targets shields are up, and the tricobalts when targets shields are down) But the stats didn't seem to pan out. I was going by the base stats and didn't do much math on them.
I was aware of the breen tranphasic torpedo thing that breaks into mines. Is it affected by the dispersal patterns? If it is that would be awesome. Are there any other cluster launchers?
How can you boost transphasic mine damage other than with tac consoles?
How do you drop double the number of mines? Is the DPB3 output higher on them? Or are you computing the cool-down and dropping multiple sets?
Any chance you've built a B'rel as a mine layer/kinetic ship? That's something I'm considering once I've finished working on my bort's.
Any chance you'd post your build so I could take a peek?
The Dot is not outstanding when u think about it either. if the DOT does 10k and its now limited to stacking, I means whats 10k of a cube with 1m HP?
Con for Photon: Completely dwarfed by Quantums being outright better.
Chroniton aren't that useful in PvE, They are primarily built as a PvP weapon, as is Transphasic, since in PvE there are a grand total of 3 NPCs who keep their shields up. And 2/3 are naturally player friendly. Im talking Gal X Fleet Support VoQuov Fleet support, and The Borg Queen.
Personal Torpedo Recommendations:
Quantums for PvE, they have the highest damage output next to Tricobalt, And since Tricobalts are not useful outside of ludicris slow spike, Quantums allow for a sustainable source of damage.
Transphasics if you EVER did PvP. Transphasics Ignore shields, and since players actually heal their shields...
And mods mathmaticly for Mines are as follows...
[Crith]>[CritD] and dmg is useless compared to those 2.
For Tricobalt which is diferent...
[CritD]=[CritH](depending on style, H for cluster attacks, D for Single mines) and Damage is useful here...
How does damage work on mines? Dmg mod is not ACTUALLY listed in most mines. But the damage increase for a standard mine is ballpark 300 damage.
Tricobalt on the otherhand, having a rediculusly high damage already, can see a ballpark increase of over 2000 per modifier.
Mines have broken Toolips, mines will very often relay false information through the tooltip, and the only reliable way of getting what mods do for mines is through a parse.
Special Mine:
Tachyon Mine Launcher:
Useless outside of Hive, incredible for destroying somethings shields though.
Why is [Crith]>CritD?
Because of how mines are bugged.
When you deploy a mine spread, all X number of mines have the same diceroll, Do I Crit?
if 1 mine is No, Every mine is no, if one mine is yes, every mine is yes.
So by increasing the chance of getting this critical "wave" you are using the system to create an Exponential increase in critical attacks, However, CritH is only better when using large mine attacks, When you spawn 32 mines, having 32 mine crits is powerful enough to kill most things without the help of a CritD. Since math hurts ur brains, ill be quiet now
uryenserellont unless I got my numbers wrong you drop 10 Cluster and 16 DPB3 at the same time for Transphasic 26 mines. I should mention Cluster Transphasic mines do more damage and less bleed though then normal Transphasic mines.
For example I do.
3574 per Cluster Transphasic mine 40% bleed.
2057 per normal Transphasic mine 80% bleed.
What I really like about cluster is the explosion radius seems big. I can often hit 3 or more ships at once.
You can also use Rapid fire Transphasic torpedoes often x2 Rapid, x2 Cluster, Projectile Doffs, x2 Rear mines. Perhaps 1 web mine as they work really well with Transphasic as web slows target and does massive hull damage. Then use DPB3, Torp spread 3 and attack pattern beta. Some people like 1 dual beam with beam overload.
As for console I pretty much stack up as many as I can find that boost crit chance or crit damage and of course the multipurpose combat console that boosts mine and torp damage by 11.4% along with 30% Transphasic tac damage consoles.
Assuming you can equip more than one, what's the best strategy for using them in multiples? Do they all share the same cooldown? Any cooldown? In other words, how fast can you chain them one after another?
The answer may affect whether I revisit my loadouts...
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I tried the rapid fires a long time ago, but they seem to have the same cool-down as regular torpedos. (8sec if I am remembering correctly.) How do you make them rapid fire? Or what is the bonus they provide?
I know you can equip more than one at a time. I don't remember the effect on the cool-down. Someone else prob already knows the ans, but I have two in inventory, I'll check it out when I get a chance.
Thanks for the informed response!
I may have to make some changes...
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
2____I am not, nor have I ever tried to say that this is the best ever build for ESTF's or any other PVE. But I didn't throw this together last week, run a few ESTFS, make up a bunch of statistics, and then decide to write a book about the magical pill I'd just discovered. I grind dilithium with this build. I regularly get upper tier rewards. I rarely die. I have fun. I'm not special. I'm not a miracle worker, prodigy, or hacker so anyone can do this.
Thanks for the post tggrinc!
I was starting to get interested with mine launchers and your guide rocks!
The world is also a sad place when you feel the need to write something like your note #2 when you're posting stuff on Forums.
Cheers!
- Scotty, to La Forge
Thanks! I've run into a few other folks that run all kinetic builds since I wrote this. So if you enjoy your mining experience