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For adjudicatorhawk, a look at the big picture

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  • webdeathwebdeath Member Posts: 1,570 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    You know.. I tried to read this entire thread from its beginning (And I may still finish during luls in call volume while I'm at work) and I started to think about a few things..

    We had some attention from Adjudicatorhawk, Borticus and company in the threads..

    The bigger picture is definitely one that needs to be noticed.. But we can't look at that picture with out first rewinding back to the past to see what has happened to PVP..

    In the beginning, we had a Queue system where you had to choose the map you wanted to PVP in. There were 5 Space maps (Briar Patch, Solar wind, Cracked Planet, Capture and Hold, and Space Mine Assault) and 3 Ground maps. (Don't recall the names atm but all 3 were ground arena). There was no Fed vs Fed, it was Fed vs Klingon. We had a Currency for each 10 levels of PVP. Ker'rat was buggy, but used. And if you ignore the bugs, exploits, and so forth, PVP actually was fun. And in the beginning you could even LEVEL off PVP.

    Then, they introduced Fed vs Fed. Because the swell of Fed players outnumbered the Klingons (And so began the rumored KDF hatred by Cryptic). Shortly after they tried to fix the queue system, until finally they Merged the 3 Arena Maps into just an Arena Queue. The Capture and hold Map stayed as is (With cosmetic changes and bug fixes). A New Ground map was introduced, Shanty Town. The Space mine Assault Map vanished with little to no known explination other then it being plagued with unfixable bugs.

    Then came what some might call the first nail in the PVP Coffin.. The change of the currencies.. Removed were all the PVP and PVE Currencies with the exception of EC and GPL and introduced was Refined and Unrefined Dilithium... To this day I personally feel they should have just merged the PVP coinage into 1 PVP Mark system. Left gear as well in those vendors that you could only buy with PVP currency.. And introduced Dilithium.

    A PVP currency with Vendors for PVP Currency would have given people a reason to PVP: New Gear. But that didn't happen.

    The Queues under went more of a visual overhaul, and also broke down a few times.. Ker'rat stayed fairly the same, but then they realized people were using the Daily Ker'rat mission to Farm, so instead added it to the very bugged PVP Daily mission rotation. A Rotation that some times makes me feel if your lucky to see Ker'rat once a month now. All because Dilithium is an "Account Bound" currency, and it was eaisly farmable.

    Then came the Dreaded skill system revamp and F2P.. Also by this time Lock Box ships were becoming more common. As were C-store supremecy ships. Fleets also got their Star Bases. Doffing got intrudced. Mean while PVP sat in the corner..

    While leading up to today, the biggest noticable thing that happened to PVP in the entire 3 Year evolution of the game was.. Ker'rat FINALLY got most of its glaring bugs fixed.. Bugs like No Walls, and the spawn point placements, as well as the still well missed and mostly newly fixed Side change bug. A Bug that I have seen some, and I agree with, ask to be instead made into a Feature for Ker'rat. N'vak doesn't need such a change.. Since its already a KvK area. But Ker'rat could make things more fun.

    And now here we area.. Present day. Sure there are many things I left out. But this was ment to be a glance back at the History of PVP's meat and potatoes. The Systems that we have currently.

    While PVE continues to thrive, and rightly so, in terms of playable content, PVP lays dorment like a Bear in hibernation for a winter that doesn't seem to want to ever end. Now by no means am I saying that PVE is perfect either. But PVE has what it needs to keep players interested up till the end game.

    If I were to do a compairson of PVE vs PVP, these are the things I'd say each could use:

    Better crafting system. Currently Crafting, to me, feels redundant. There really is no feel of find a node, get the mats you need, and craft cool gear. Crafting also only has one Unique item to it, the Aegis set. Other wise you can eaisly find better. Not to mention there is no recipe hunt.. And those special Recipes could eaisly be placed in both PVE end game content as well as PVP as random drops when either Players are killed, or as part of the daily mission rewards. And no, I absolutely do NOT consider the Reputation system a crafting system.

    Actual End game missions. Not just the Queue up or Private Queue up missions, but something akin to the original Infected, Cure, Khitomer and Terrordome. Or perhaps just add speciality drops to the end rewards of those Queues that is akin to the original Borg Set. The same could be done for PVP where you finish a daily, and you get a chance to get special rare items you can only get there.

    More PVP Maps/Styles of play. While I like what we have.. I'd LOVE to have either more maps to Arena/C&H in. Or new types of game play.. We have the Borg, and the Elachi, and other end game seeming villians, why not use them similar to the zombie apoc mission from Champions Online.

    No Foundry support for PVP. This is something that personally I always felt was a waste of a wonderful resource. Even if maps had to be kept simple. Even if most you could do was use current locations for those maps, it could give us, the players, a way to fight where and how WE want. With the Dilithium tip system, it could also give us a way to earn Dilithium.

    No Fleet support for PVP. Ok, now this one I CONSTANTLY Scratch my head at.. We have fleet star bases.. but we can't defend them against other fleets.. Derp?

    Ker'rat gives no Omega marks for the daily. Ker'rat = Borg based zone.. Ker'rat Daily involves going in Ker'rat.. Ergo Omega Marks makes sense for Ker'rat...

    No PVP Reputation system. I am not asking for a grind, and this almost goes into PVP currency, but it would be nice if PVP finally had a Reputation that we could use.. Even if it doesn't provide special powers, but just gives access to cool looking skins for our ships, or special stores for cool looking weapons that provide nothing beyond a new look or type.

    Ok, I think I have done enough pointing out my thoughts on what is wrong with PVP and some elements of PVE.. Some of which are interchangable. And while of course we need power tweeks. Console/itemization balancing factors being taken into account. And the always needed bug squashes. We also need things to do. And I don't mean a grind fest that is just doing the same BORING things over and over (Yes rep grind is boring, except for maybe Omega, since you really only have to do 1 ISE a day) but something abit more fun.. What is that? I don't know personally.. I'm not a developer. I'm just a player who has a passion for this game. Weither its as a member of the PVP community, casual PVEr, or who knows what.. The game feels like it needs something more then lock boxes and C-store trash to give a reason to keep coming back..
    You think that your beta test was bad?
    Think about this:
    American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    skollulfr wrote: »
    /snip

    I'm going to ask a question, and I know you're not going to answer it...it's rhetorical.

    Do you prefer cake or pie?

    What will your reply be? I can tell you, based on every reply you've given so far while ignoring answering every question so far... You won't pick one...but you'll complain that the one is not like the other. Then you'll complain of my being elitist.
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    skollulfr wrote: »
    /Snip

    Uhmari? Is that you?
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    adamkafei wrote: »
    Uhmari? Is that you?

    Honestly, I couldn't remember the name - but that's who I was thinking of...
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    skollulfr wrote: »
    /snip

    You can continue to spout your nonsensical garbage, but it won't change it from being nonsensical garbage...
  • stirling191stirling191 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    adamkafei wrote: »
    Uhmari? Is that you?

    This guy actually predates Uhmari.
    Honestly, I couldn't remember the name - but that's who I was thinking of...

    Author of these bits of hilarity
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    This guy actually predates Uhmari.

    And well, this post: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=11124971&postcount=18

    Even uhmari saw what skollulfr was trying to do...meh.
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    And well, this post: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=11124971&postcount=18

    Even uhmari saw what skollulfr was trying to do...meh.


    At this point, I just completely ignore anyone who has grand sweeping visions they harp on repeatedly with the goal of making this game be some other game that for some reason those players haven't just gone and designed themselves with their superior knowledge. :rolleyes:

    We can't even get some long-standing bugs ironed out and the devs clearly have a risk factor scale they weigh out when making powers changes/nerfs even for ridiculous outliers like 50s GPG.

    Yet some players still think there is a chance that the entire combat system is going to be overhauled.


    It might happen, sometime right before the heat-death of the universe.
  • webdeathwebdeath Member Posts: 1,570 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Bleh.. I hate when I write walls of text in high number count posts trying to make a point but it gets skipped over for other more interesting conversations..

    Oh and Virus, I prefer Cake! Or cookies.... Or maybe Cakes with Cookies.. :D
    You think that your beta test was bad?
    Think about this:
    American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    At this point, I just completely ignore anyone who posts dribble-drool about yo-yo mechanics
  • bpharmabpharma Member Posts: 2,022
    edited September 2013
    Just throwing this out there.

    Maybe we're the ones who are wrong for the game not the other way around. I mean not one person here will deny it favours a less than optimal build and play style. Like it or not even the high level PvE players are a minority just like high level PvP players.

    Just something to think about while I build a d'faildrex which doesn't perform as well as every other ship I have but still stomps elite content easily with common gear.

    It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
    A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

    Has damage got out of control?
    This is the last thing I will post.
  • webdeathwebdeath Member Posts: 1,570 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    At this point, I just completely ignore anyone who posts dribble-drool about yo-yo mechanics

    But.. I didn't even mention mechanics in my post... :(
    You think that your beta test was bad?
    Think about this:
    American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    webdeath wrote: »
    Oh and Virus, I prefer Cake! Or cookies.... Or maybe Cakes with Cookies.. :D

    When eating Cake, do you think to yourself...Cake's doing it wrong, it should be more like Pie? ;)

    Course, there's always something like this: http://cookiesandcups.com/whoopie-pie-cake/
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    bpharma wrote: »
    Just throwing this out there.

    Maybe we're the ones who are wrong for the game not the other way around. I mean not one person here will deny it favours a less than optimal build and play style. Like it or not even the high level PvE players are a minority just like high level PvP players.

    Just something to think about while I build a d'faildrex which doesn't perform as well as every other ship I have but still stomps elite content easily with common gear.

    See, the thing I think...well, I think "optimal" is a subjective term. Depending on what's meant by optimal, it could also mean different things.

    I do not think most ships are balanced - not optimal to deal with various situations - but they are generally optimal for specific situations. That nature of the min/max at play.

    I think the devs look at more balanced ships and thus see more balance - while players are...yeah, no...let's do this.

    At the same time, the devs are also designing content around players that may have never played a single video game before this one - that may have no idea what they're doing (or even care that they don't know what they're doing)...

    ...so yep, I definitely see just as many if not more complaints about PvE from PvE folks looking for a challenge as I do from PvP folks complaining about it. Both tend to get drowned out by the folks that do not want a challenge...whether because they can't deal with a challenge or they like it nice and easy for quick farming.

    With the Elachi stuff, I saw more PvE folks going /facepalm at the complaints than I did PvP folks...but again, they were drowned out by the sheer number of folks saying it was too hard.

    With that being an apparent design goal (can't blame them, it means money and keeps the game going) - most request for increasing the challenge of PvE (whether originating from a PvE player or a PvPer) is going to fall on deaf ears.

    The game needs to be accessible...and...previous attempts have met with stiff resistance...meh. Not sure why we can't have our cake and eat it too. ;)

    As for skollulfr's complaints about the UI...yeah, it's the same type of UI system that's been around for 30 years or so - because it's what fits the game. There have been definite improvements over the years in many games - and - what we've got now is much better in style/function than we had back in the 90's.

    His comments might have more of a place - were he part of a group looking to design a game...where they decided to go another way. It's just extremely irritating for somebody to come to a game and want to change such fundamental things.

    There was a game that I was really looking forward to...DCUO.

    The cinematic trailer was awesome...yes, knew it would be nothing like that - but gameplay videos looked awesome as well. But then seeing that it was also going to be console...actually playing it on PC...and they completely lost me.

    Likewise, Champions Online? That initial console development actually lost me as well. It limits the games, imho. It's not a case of X > Y or Y > X...it's just a preference. When I'm playing a MMORPG - I want to play a MMORPG...I don't want to play an Action MMO.

    I'm directing a character - I'm not the character. If I want to do that, there are countless games where I can do that.

    Meh, I miss CoX.
  • webdeathwebdeath Member Posts: 1,570 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    When eating Cake, do you think to yourself...Cake's doing it wrong, it should be more like Pie? ;)

    Course, there's always something like this: http://cookiesandcups.com/whoopie-pie-cake/

    lol The Cake I really like has a Pie Element to it from a local Resturant here in South Florida called Peter Pan's dinner. Chocolate Moose Cake. :D
    You think that your beta test was bad?
    Think about this:
    American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • webdeathwebdeath Member Posts: 1,570 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Meh, I miss CoX.

    You aren't the only one.. Sure I got bored with the PVE after about 2 years.. But then I found PVP in that game... until they scared the PVP Community away with the PVP Revamp...

    I miss the Tournaments that used to happen on the Test Servers there.. :(
    You think that your beta test was bad?
    Think about this:
    American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    As for skollulfr's complaints about the UI...yeah, it's the same type of UI system that's been around for 30 years or so - because it's what fits the game.
    No, that's where you're wrong. The typical air-combat model would be much more appropriate, with pressure damage punctuated by a few specials. We are using a combat model where "normal" combat consists of "special moves" that are repeatedly activated, because that's that only thing Cryptic has on the shelf. Not because its appropriate.

    And you keep saying "oh its an MMORPG it has to be this way" is basically arguing that you dont know any other combat models so there's nothing wrong with it.

    Dont you complain about yo-yo/spike/lack-of-pressure? This is why those problems exist.

    This isnt even the biggest problem with the game. Its a really minor thing compared to problems like ~how to make open-warfare PVP zones when some players are using stock RA and others are using fleet/rep/p2w items. The game's fundamental lack of balance cannot be corrected. The rest of this stuff is just coctail chatter.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    No, that's where you're wrong. The typical air-combat model would be much more appropriate, with pressure damage punctuated by a few specials.

    Really? So you'd go with a jet fighter model for starships rather than a naval model?

    Do you not see the problem with what you're doing there?
    And you keep saying "oh its an MMORPG it has to be this way" is basically arguing that you dont know any other combat models so there's nothing wrong with it.

    Um in what fantasy land is that the case?

    That argument is that this is a game of Type X...there are games of Type Y as well. They're different types of games. Different models work for different games.

    I wouldn't go to play a FPS and expect it to be like a MMORPG. I wouldn't go to a RTS and expect it to be like a Fighting Game. I wouldn't go to a Racer and expect it to be like a Card Game.

    Is STO performing up to expectations for a MMORPG? Nope, not in the least. But it's a case of looking at it failing to meet the expectations for a MMORPG...not for it failing to meet the expectations of some twitch FPS/TPS air-combat game...

    ...I don't go to a burger joint and complain about their burgers compared to pizza from some other place - I'd complain about their burgers compared to the burgers from some other burger joint.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    skollulfr, you keep going around and around - it's getting tedious.

    I say the sky is blue. You accuse me of being elitist. Um, the sky is blue. How is that my fault that it's blue just because you wish it were sage green or something?
  • ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I wouldn't go to play a FPS and expect it to be like a MMORPG. I wouldn't go to a RTS and expect it to be like a Fighting Game. I wouldn't go to a Racer and expect it to be like a Card Game.
    That's all fine, but you are taking that and declaring oh we cant have first-person camera mode in a MMORPG because its not an FPS game and this is an MMORPG ... which is ridiculous ... individual mechanics are not the overall game. We have these mechanics because Cryptic doing what they know, not because its appropriate for ship-to-ship warfare, or because its an MMORPG and it has to use this stupiid ground-warrior swords-and-sorcery model for ship-to-ship combat.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    That's all fine, but you are taking that and declaring oh we cant have first-person camera mode in a MMORPG because its not an FPS game and this is an MMORPG ... which is ridiculous ... individual mechanics are not the overall game

    There can be options for both, but one should not replace the one inherent to the game.

    Kind of like STO has RPG mode and Shooter mode for Ground.

    I've got no problem with them adding outside modes to a game. It's when somebody talks about replacing the current mode of a game...
    We have these mechanics because Cryptic doing what they know, not because its appropriate for ship-to-ship warfare, or because its an MMORPG and it has to use this stupiid ground-warrior swords-and-sorcery model for ship-to-ship combat.

    Have you played EVE?
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    skollulfr wrote: »
    elements from ufo afterlight and the remake of x-com could be used to update BOTH modes WHILE KEEPING THEM SEPARATE.

    UFO Afterlight is a 2007 game with a GUI that looks like it was lost in the 80's...
    X-Com: Enemy Unknown is a 2012 game with a GUI that reflects it mainly being a console game...

    Why would somebody want something that looks as cartoonish as UFO Afterlight? Why would somebody playing a PC only game want something based on Console limitations?
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