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If we can kill in less than 5secs, will that be nerfed as well?

naz4naz4 Member Posts: 1,373 Arc User
edited September 2013 in PvP Gameplay
Post bo stacking nerf, if we find another way to achieve the goal of super fast kills, will that be "fixed" as well until there is just the age old heavy cannons with a lot of chance based crits which some people do not want to move away from?
Post edited by naz4 on
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  • masterkeychnk5masterkeychnk5 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    After Bo nerf there is no other way naz, accept it, we're going back to the 4x DHC escort era, this time with fleet shields and more resistance/heals then ever before.

    Cant u handle it?

    If you still manage to do instashots somehow you're simply haxing and i will report u.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] I am not Snakie, MT is!
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Thing is...

    ...the 5s thing ignores the target.

    A person can show up in PvP with a ship that would die in 5s during a pillow fight...

    ...and then turn around to complain about it.

    Meh, based on what was said in that discussion though - they want to remove any semblance of skill from the game...want to cater to the least common denominator, so everybody can have a blast! (with nobody getting blasted)

    Folks will still die in 5s or less without 2x/3x BO (just like some folks didn't die in 5s or less with a 2x/3x BO)...

    ...for some things, people just need to take some responsibility for their builds - their skill level - and accept that there might be better builds, might be builds better suited to killing them, and there may very well be players that are better than them.

    Doing so - well, they might have more fun - might focus more on seeing things that are actually not working as the devs intended, meaning they can contribute more to getting bugs fixed...rather than complaining all the time that so and so killed them using some OP mechanic.
  • maicake716maicake716 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    remember when sci used to be able to kill in under 5 seconds?....


    i do.
    mancom wrote: »
    Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
    Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
    Do you even Science Bro?
  • havamhavam Member Posts: 1,735 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    maicake716 wrote: »
    remember when sci used to be able to kill in under 5 seconds?....


    i do.

    This will certainly not happen again.

    So to answer the OP, if your <5s kill involves tac/scort pew pew....its going to be fine.

    If it uses sci, or eng skills, i doubt it ll live long enough to one day join the tales of:

    "Remember when xyz was borken, and we could ...."
  • lordcuttersladelordcutterslade Member Posts: 116 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    my cheesy Sci Boat is going to keeel you!! sci ftw :D
    just move on naz and go all dual heavies or do something fancy and equip a tricobalt in front and do minimax style :D
    [SIGPIC]Everything is awesome![/SIGPIC]
  • timejumperstimejumpers Member Posts: 120 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    naz4 wrote: »
    Post bo stacking nerf, if we find another way to achieve the goal of super fast kills, will that be "fixed" as well until there is just the age old heavy cannons with a lot of chance based crits which some people do not want to move away from?

    Just use inversion or grav pulse you can whipe a whole team in under 5 seconds just by pushing the button lol.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    maicake716 wrote: »
    remember when sci used to be able to kill in under 5 seconds?....

    i do.

    Fleet Ha'nom w/ Rom Sci Captain

    Traits - Romulan, Covert Operative, Singularity Specialist, Conservation of Energy, Photonic Capacitor, Accurate, Elusive, Helmsman, Inspirational Leader

    Reputation
    New Rom - Precision, Emergency Secondary Shielding, Quantum Singularity Manipulation
    Nukara - Enhanced Shield Penetration, Aux Power Config - Offense, Refracting Tetryon Cascade
    Omega - Omega Weapon Training, Omega Graviton Amplifier

    TT1, APD1
    TS1

    EPtE1, RSP1
    ST1, TSS2, FBP2, TBR3
    PH1, HE2, SS2


    (5x Rom Sub/Sup Op)

    DOFFs - 3x DO(+5% Exotic), TBO(TBR), Bio(SS)

    Deflector - Omega Mk XII
    Engine - Omega Mk XII
    Shields - Omega Mk XII
    Core - Elite Fleet Hyper-Stabilizing Mk XII [PG][Wave][SCap][AMP][SST]

    Weapons
    Fore - Experimental Array, Trans Torp Mk XII [CrtH]x3, Breen Cluster
    Aft - Hyper-Plasma Torp, 2x Disruptor Turrets Mk XII [Acc]x3

    Consoles
    Tac - Nukara, Grav Pulse Gen, Iso Charge
    Eng - 0Point, E-Neut Mk XII [+Turn]
    Sci - 3x Rom Particle Gens Mk XII [-Th][HuH], 2x Rom Particle Gens Mk XII [-Th][ShH]

    Devices - RMC, SFM, Aux Batt

    Other - Nimbus Pirate Distress Call

    Note: Don't Iso/Cascade after the SS. Or well - maybe do it! ;)

    Note2: Uh, yeah - just in case folks aren't familiar with my build posts - this isn't a real build. Don't do it.
  • drunkadmiraldrunkadmiral Member Posts: 197 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Do you think is ok for a mmo that players go from 100%->0% in under 5 sec ?
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Do you think is ok for a mmo that players go from 100%->0% in under 5 sec ?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwKnvRPIrl0

    vs.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTPdWYo9zhQ

    edit: Meh, thought I had posted both links...
  • zyphoid7zyphoid7 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Some of the replies in this thread to Naz are just......<double facepalm>.


    Read between the lines people. He's not whining or crying. Maybe you aren't native english speakers, his "if" is obviously facetious. Multiple different sub 5 second vaping builds without double bo aren't coming they are already here. The question he poses to Adjudicatorhawk come in response to this post.
    By adding a short cooldown to the consumption of these buffs, we hope to curve the abuse case without negatively affecting normal gameplay.

    I hope these changes feel fair to you. Once the changes make their way to Tribble, please feel free to point out any cases where the changes may not be accomplishing their stated goals - I'm always happy to listen to any constructive feedback.

    The BO changes will slightly limit double BO strike for average pvp players (and a bunch of PvErs), but will not hamper the high end pvpers from getting multiple sub 5 second vapes. So the question that Naz is putting forth to Adjudicatorhawk is what his thoughts are going forward since this change will NOT stop vaping, and thusly, QQ by those who die.

    Zyphoid

    PS- I'm not even sure that people with no experience/terrible builds/no timing can even be addressed for pvp since they will always be instapopped by anyone with even a modicum of skill. As a very smart friend of mine once said "you can't heal wet kleenex".
    [SIGPIC]Nixus[/SIGPIC]
  • havamhavam Member Posts: 1,735 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    zyphoid7 wrote: »
    Some of the replies in this thread to Naz are just......<double facepalm>.


    Read between the lines people. He's not whining or crying. Maybe you aren't native english speakers, his "if" is obviously facetious. Multiple different sub 5 second vaping builds without double bo aren't coming they are already here. The question he poses to Adjudicatorhawk come in response to this post.


    The BO changes will slightly limit double BO strike for average pvp players (and a bunch of PvErs), but will not hamper the high end pvpers from getting multiple sub 5 second vapes. So the question that Naz is putting forth to Adjudicatorhawk is what his thoughts are going forward since this change will NOT stop vaping, and thusly, QQ by those who die.

    Zyphoid

    PS- I'm not even sure that people with no experience/terrible builds/no timing can even be addressed for pvp since they will always be instapopped by anyone with even a modicum of skill. As a very smart friend of mine once said "you can't heal wet kleenex".

    Well lets take a look at what adjudicatorhawk accomplished.

    Double Tapping has been in game since release. Systems releases one damn item after another to make it more powerful, while simultaneously giving out free heals and resists to everybody.

    3 years later. BO double tapping is "fixed" along with a bunch of other skills, because.....?

    This 5s idea is a joke of an explanation, all it shows is the disconnect between how systems thinks their game works, and how pvp'ers play the game.
  • naz4naz4 Member Posts: 1,373 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    zyphoid7 wrote: »
    Some of the replies in this thread to Naz are just......<double facepalm>.


    Read between the lines people. He's not whining or crying. Maybe you aren't native english speakers, his "if" is obviously facetious. Multiple different sub 5 second vaping builds without double bo aren't coming they are already here. The question he poses to Adjudicatorhawk come in response to this post.


    The BO changes will slightly limit double BO strike for average pvp players (and a bunch of PvErs), but will not hamper the high end pvpers from getting multiple sub 5 second vapes. So the question that Naz is putting forth to Adjudicatorhawk is what his thoughts are going forward since this change will NOT stop vaping, and thusly, QQ by those who die.

    Zyphoid

    PS- I'm not even sure that people with no experience/terrible builds/no timing can even be addressed for pvp since they will always be instapopped by anyone with even a modicum of skill. As a very smart friend of mine once said "you can't heal wet kleenex".

    Glad someone realised what i was subtly hinting at.
  • maicake716maicake716 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    skollulfr wrote: »
    thats not an mmo question.
    even in shooters you are often looking at 10sec+ kills due to bullet spread, rof, armor. especially when dealing with a game that has presonal shields as this one does.

    in small craft, possibly. quick deaths are expected in flight games but even in warthunder you have to TRIBBLE up hard enough for someone to put a whole rocket salvo in you.

    im multi-million ton warships... you have to be joking. the reason this game has gotten to this point are teh broken yoyo heals that mean you eather kill them in one big spike, not at all, or thorough numbers.

    to the fps remark- BOOM! headshot.

    to the war thunder remark- true, but i've accidently ripped off my own wings from time to time in HB mode... and had my pilot "knocked out" more times then i can remember by mysterious hits i didnt see/hits from directions that shouldnt have hit the pilot.

    i remember the enterprise d killing a bop with what... 2 photon torps in generations...

    just point out a few things :P
    mancom wrote: »
    Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
    Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
    Do you even Science Bro?
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    im guessing the marmot is getting nerfed next then lol
  • rmy1081rmy1081 Member Posts: 2,840 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Do you think is ok for a mmo that players go from 100%->0% in under 5 sec ?

    What I hate more is taking someone to 10% in under 5 seconds then having them back at 100% in less than 1 second.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    zyphoid7 wrote: »
    The question he poses to Adjudicatorhawk come in response to this post.

    When I "complained" to Hawk in that thread that the change wouldn't really change anything...this is what he said in reply:
    Double-tap is bad gameplay - period, end of story. It's a workaround for a shared cooldown that was always supposed to prevent exactly what's happening. It fixes a lot of things about this small problem - but the point that many are making (and that I agree with) is that this fix is just a drop in the moderately large bucket in the grand scheme of unwinding and overhauling combat math to make things feel fair for both aggressors and defenders, and make combat between evenly matched adversaries take a more reasonable amount of time. The trick to any of these changes is that our PvE combat is in a pretty good place - people can have a lot of fun flying just about any ship, and can contribute meaningfully to queued events and basically have a blast. Therefore, any change to combat math that also affects PvE is extremely high risk - so the TRIBBLE we have to balance and tweak PvP pacing are limited to those that don't have unintended side effects.

    It's not an impossible job - it just requires a lot of care and time investment. If things are broken or things are really bad gameplay, it's easy to justify stepping in and fixing something immediately. If things aren't either of the above but are still less fun or less engaging than they could be, we obviously want to fix them - it just takes more work and more time to get the fix right and minimize any external side effects of that fix.

    That's a bit of a ramble, but I know you guys like insight into why we change things we choose to change and how we make the game, so hopefully it interests you/makes sense to you. Please try to stay positive and constructive in responses - I'm happy to entertain discussions and talk about things openly, but if you start flaming or posting off-topic things, it's really hard to justify responding to something like that.

    And er, I'm pretty sure I complained about that reply too... ;)
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    skollulfr wrote: »
    this game has a set of dice that decied if you crit etc and causes bullets that can be made to 180 in mid air under the right circumstances because the dice say so, not player input.

    Welcome to a RPG...you can find Action Games over in aisle 7. Thank you for stopping by...
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Welcome to a RPG...you can find Action Games over in aisle 7. Thank you for stopping by...

    So 5 second kills are an element of a RPG? Good to know....
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    bareel wrote: »
    So 5 second kills are an element of a RPG? Good to know....

    Out of context much?
  • aldo1rainealdo1raine Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    skollulfr wrote: »
    lol @ this whole thread.

    whats the matter? combat system not working?
    exploit that was needed to compensate for all the game breaking powercreep going away

    boohoo.

    Does that mean the a2b exploit plaguing the game has been fixed?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Nerf Klinks, Buff Rommies
  • mustafatennickmustafatennick Member Posts: 850 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    aldo1raine wrote: »
    Does that mean the a2b exploit plaguing the game has been fixed?

    For gods sake it's not a god damn exploit

    Yeah it could be argued its slightly OP at times but its not a flaming exploit
    ----=====This is my opinion you don't have to listen and no one else has to read them these "OPINIONS" are based on my exploits and my learning other people will have their opinions and that's fine just don't knock my way of doing things thanks=====---- :cool:
  • naz4naz4 Member Posts: 1,373 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    For gods sake it's not a god damn exploit

    Yeah it could be argued its slightly OP at times but its not a flaming exploit

    The moment they decouple EptX from A2B, added the Marion DOFF to the mix, with DEM it went from slight to more OP
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I want to point to two of Hawk's posts here:
    Double-tap is bad gameplay - period, end of story. It's a workaround for a shared cooldown that was always supposed to prevent exactly what's happening. It fixes a lot of things about this small problem - but the point that many are making (and that I agree with) is that this fix is just a drop in the moderately large bucket in the grand scheme of unwinding and overhauling combat math to make things feel fair for both aggressors and defenders, and make combat between evenly matched adversaries take a more reasonable amount of time. The trick to any of these changes is that our PvE combat is in a pretty good place - people can have a lot of fun flying just about any ship, and can contribute meaningfully to queued events and basically have a blast. Therefore, any change to combat math that also affects PvE is extremely high risk - so the TRIBBLE we have to balance and tweak PvP pacing are limited to those that don't have unintended side effects.

    It's not an impossible job - it just requires a lot of care and time investment. If things are broken or things are really bad gameplay, it's easy to justify stepping in and fixing something immediately. If things aren't either of the above but are still less fun or less engaging than they could be, we obviously want to fix them - it just takes more work and more time to get the fix right and minimize any external side effects of that fix.

    That's a bit of a ramble, but I know you guys like insight into why we change things we choose to change and how we make the game, so hopefully it interests you/makes sense to you. Please try to stay positive and constructive in responses - I'm happy to entertain discussions and talk about things openly, but if you start flaming or posting off-topic things, it's really hard to justify responding to something like that.
    I think purple aux2batt technicians are probably a little too strong in general, but they've been in-game as-is for so long that touching them is high-risk. Technician procs should only be affecting Bridge Officer abilities as far as I'm aware, although this proc predates my tenure here so I could be wrong on that. I suspect though that any consoles affected by Technicians are a bug. :)

    So it should be pretty clear...what will be touched and what will not be touched.
  • g0h4n4g0h4n4 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Whatever happens post BO nerf, people will still get insta vaped within 5-10 secs or by other means.

    What will happen is they will come on this forum and start complaining about how 4DHC's are so op or how torp builds are unfair always cloaking.... blah blah blah

    Then the great nerf hammer comes down and we are back to square zero.

    One has to realise people are expecting to be God in PVP since they ROFLSTOMP cubes in under 5 secs. They get insta vaped and they complain.

    BO double tapping has been around since beta. Why are they being nerfed now? This is not just to do with the BO doff, I can insta pop anyone without them too.

    It really is sad with the state of how players and the game has turned into. PVE player complains, PVE gets.

    I can still kill players in Kerrat without a second BO, what does that show? epic fail builds or single BO need nerfing?

    I tried torp spread 1 and it took out someone to half hull and no shields and they weren't even my target.

    Seriously... Cryptic needs to engage with the PVP community and setup a tutorial or have links to DDI's PVP help thread, because new players don't have a clue in building ships, not even distrbute shields. I don't blame the player in this case, but the system.

    We have all been where they have been, new players, with rainbow builds and manually distributing shields. Feeling God when popping Cubes in CSE but then realising it was the wrong time and Kang get's Insta popped.

    Instead of squabbling, releasing all that testosterone and trying to be on the high ground, look at the bigger picture.. the system

    Stop with the handbags and engage your brains and engage and discuss the orginal topic instead of getting into fights
    Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
    - Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
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