Certain abilities are magnified more than others with power creep.
Sometimes that power creep offsets things that were otherwise balancing something. Those same changes, if they're not part of the balancing for something - well, they're not going to mean the same thing.
Sometimes that power creep offsets things that were otherwise balancing something. Those same changes, if they're not part of the balancing for something - well, they're not going to mean the same thing.
Because the amount it speeds up cooldowns by is pretty poor even with stacking every last thing you can. That and very few people have ever seen this elusive beast. It roams on the backs of photonic science officers which are a rare sight in the fields of STO.
If you're interested here is Mimey discussing it and us coming to the ultimate conclusion that 1 A2B with 3 doffs is better if you have specific gear you want to run and in many circumstances.
Photonic Officer, not even PO 3, can hold a candle to even a single A2B with 3 Technician DOFFs in comparison.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
My recluse can put out the same sort of DPS as an A2B cruiser and doesn't need A2B so it has freakishly high power sci abilities and heals whenever I need them. Does this mean that too and it's obscene pets need nerfing too?
While in some ways I do agree that it would be nice if cruisers didn't need A2B to be able to keep up with escorts the problem is unless there is an agreed or at least decent counterpoint to A2B introduced we will see cruisers fade back into obsolescence. Nerfing A2B will just marginalise a class of ships again which, regardless of your feelings about the ability and doffs combo, is not a good thing.
So really if you want it to be nerfed, come up with a viable alternative that will allow a cruiser to compete with an escort. The above post is a start.
Also while we're talking about pressure damage try to think of how a tactical or science captain could potentially sit in that ship and turn it from pressure damage into a 30s long OMFG MY HULL IS MELTING!!!! death machine if done wrongly.
A tactical captain should get more damage from it but should not buff it so much that it makes balancing the pressure damage at the top end, not pressure damage at the bottom end.
So please factor that in and explain how those 2 captains with APA, GDF, FOMM, Tactical fleet and sensor scan would affect said pressure damage and the stacking of such abilities by 1 captain.
Yeah pet debuffs are bs too. That should be the realm of sci boff powers.
You want cruisers to be more viable, in pvp anyway? Dump fleet shields and tone down MACO shields. Those resists began the end of pressure damage from energy weapons.
Most Cruisers turned too slow for Scis to reliably apply SNB et al in the past, you want that back nerf EPtE and go back to slow boats.
Drop some of the passive repairs and power handouts and Tacs couldn't fly them as effectively as Engineers either.
But none of that is going to happen as much as it would be nice.
Just like nerfing Aux2batt would be nice, it's not going to happen unless cryptic has a lotto doff they want to sell to have a similar effect.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Season Five: Call to Arms was released on December 1, 2011. It introduced the long awaited Duty officer system as well as a skill revamp and overhauled Special Task Force missions.
Searchs:
"nerf aux" aux2bat overpowered
So Aux2Bat has been available for 18 months, during which according to the searches listed, only 2 - "Nerf A2B" threads have been written both in the last 2 months so what has changed to make it so OP and worth complaining about all of a sudden?
Honestly curious as to the answer since the A2B skill/Technician Doffs have not been changed that I'm aware off. hmm Naz4's post may have the clue which might be the combination of the Marion Doff and Elite Fleet gear.
Maybe Beam Array drain mechanics need to be looked at so that A2B is not needed to off set the drain from running multiple beam arrays?
Maybe they need to add Heavy single cannons to the game aka the Heavy Crescent Wave Cannon to allow cruisers some more options?
Maybe the super resists from Elite Fleet gear needs to be looked at?
Though all this still seems as though A2B being OP is more a PvP issue that PvE, but NPCs are not allowed to complain on the forums so we will never know. :P
Anyways have fun, pew-pew bad guys its still only a game after all.
Your search skills need improving.
1st I know I've mentioned problems w/aux2batt for far longer than 2 months, I just let it go after awhile. Not to rehash the past, but I was accused of flaming and all other kinds of things. Keep in mind this was before fleet shields killed spray and pray type cvs/crf builds, it was b/c I flew them including single aux2batts that I knew how strong they were. Fleet Torkaht and KDF Vet in particular were strong w/aux2batt.
Fyi, tech doffs changed about 1 year ago (no more shared cooldown w/eptx), but even before those changes there were people who knew how to cycle it well in between epts etc.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
1st I know I've mentioned problems w/aux2batt for far longer than 2 months, I just let it go after awhile. Not to rehash the past, but I was accused of flaming and all other kinds of things. Keep in mind this was before fleet shields killed spray and pray type cvs/crf builds, it was b/c I flew them including single aux2batts that I knew how strong they were. Fleet Torkaht and KDF Vet in particular were strong w/aux2batt.
Fyi, tech doffs changed about 1 year ago (no more shared cooldown w/eptx), but even before those changes there were people who knew how to cycle it well in between epts etc.
Aux2batt searchs 500 results total where aux2batt is mentioned in a thread but the majority of those are build advice question only the 2 I specifically quoted have nerf or overpowered and aux2batt in the title and only 6 threads mention "aux2batt, nerf, overpowered" together
and all those are in the pvp subforum so seems search works fine. Although you must be referring to this thread Top Concerns of PvP Balance
Edit: So is A2B being "OP" mainly a PvP concern then?
Aux2batt searchs 500 results total where aux2batt is mentioned in a thread but the majority of those are build advice question only the 2 I specifically quoted have nerf or overpowered and aux2batt in the title and only 6 threads mention "aux2batt, nerf, overpowered" together
and all those are in the pvp subforum so seems search works fine. Although you must be referring to this thread Top Concerns of PvP Balance
Edit: So is A2B being "OP" mainly a PvP concern then?
That was one of them. You'll note the one you pointed out was made in January hardly w/in the last 2 months nor all of the sudden. So yeah, you still need to work on your search skills, or at least basic math.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Just a note in regard to searches...they cap at 500. Fiddle with the timeframe for the search to see more.
Searching can be hampered by the following:
"aux2batt, nerf, overpowered"
aux2batt, Aux to Battery, Emergency to Battery, AtB, A2B...etc, etc, etc.
overpowered, over powered, OP...
Sometimes you have to hit up Google, Bing, etc - to do the search with a better chance of success than you might get with the forum's own search feature.
It is kind of fun to go back and search old things, mind you...
That was one of them. You'll note the one you pointed out was made in January hardly w/in the last 2 months nor all of the sudden. So yeah, you still need to work on your search skills, or at least basic math.
Also from the PvP subforum so is the main A2B issue when it is used in combination with other items (Elite Fleet shields for example) in the PvP setting generally?
Granted I have A2B Galor I use use occasionally on a Fed engineer but I also use the KCB, spiral waves and Wide-Angle Quantum torp in that build mainly for lols in pve.
Just a note in regard to searches...they cap at 500. Fiddle with the timeframe for the search to see more.
Searching can be hampered by the following:
"aux2batt, nerf, overpowered"
aux2batt, Aux to Battery, Emergency to Battery, AtB, A2B...etc, etc, etc.
overpowered, over powered, OP...
Sometimes you have to hit up Google, Bing, etc - to do the search with a better chance of success than you might get with the forum's own search feature.
It is kind of fun to go back and search old things, mind you...
This was kind of funny...08-01-2011, 01:02 PM
...as an aside, the old threads are often far more entertaining than the new threads - imho of course.
Ahh TY virus I don't generally search that far back as things get changed and broken with each patch it seems.
Also if you have a cruiser with only one lt... then don't run freaking cannons. (and frankly the fact that weapons don't have enough punch with no weapon buffs up... is perhaps another part of the larger problem Cryptic has there head in the sand over)
So basically, every single KDF Cruiser, none of which have a second Lt+ tactical ability, and therefore, by extension, every single KDF ship, since every other KDF ship is already completely obsolete, is worthless, since their only ability is unusable.
the issue is being able to double your tactical slots... your science slots... and your engi slots. For the same cost every other system global would have to spend in doffs.
At the significant cost of 3 doff slots, leaving you with pretty much no other standard 3-doff schtick, and the loss of most of your on-demand aux utility. Sure, there are ways to mitigate some of these effects, but they all carry their own costs and drawbacks.
And after all this, it's not like the ships which were saved from the junkheap by this have suddenly become the greatest things ever.
Still, I'd switch the TSS2 for HE2...drop the [Pla] to pick up a second [HuH]...and would have gone with a [SCap] core instead of a [WCap] core...
...but yeah, it's not as squishy (imho) as it may look at first glance.
Yeah, it's definitely not "squishy," as those who have tried to kill me will (hopefully) attest. And I do slot a Mark XI neutronium with the the [Turn] modifier from time to time - keep it handy in inventory for when I run into Elachi spam. However, I always swap-out Nukara for it instead of one of the FCs.
My thinking behind the 2x FCs is to keep the Leech sucking as much power from the enemy as possible (along with the less reliable Pol procs). Draining them, even a little, is the only way to allow my anemic DPS (12-13K nominal in PvE runs) to wear them down. I suppose I could swap out [Pla] for [Huh] on the second FC, however, I'm scrounging for every incremental DPS boost I can find, and a little plasma damage couldn't hurt.
To reiterate, my main problem is spikey escorts with shield penetration. As soon as I start slotting armor to compensate, I eat into my offensive potential. 1x fleet neutronium - at the sacrifice of Nukara - seems to be a reasonable compromise. However, even then I'm susceptible to elite-level players with their "one-pass-and-you're toast" DPS levels. I could slot more neutroniums, but then I'm shading into "zombie cruiser" territory where I live forever but can't hurt a fly.
As for swapping TSS for HE, this is another example of sacrificing a shield heal for a hull heal. Against opponents with penetration damage, yes it makes sense. But for the vast majority of players who need to wear down my shields first (as opposed to shooting straight through them), dropping TSS takes away one of my more effective buffs.
In practice, I use TSS to bridge between RSP activations (I also have the RSP doff for 20.1 sec uptime). Without it, I'd be relying on my EPtX cycle alone, which I doubt would be enough to close the RSP gap during sustained, multi-target engagements.
Bottom Line: There simply aren't any complete solutions to the spikey escort problem. If I slot armor, I lose offense. If I slot hull heals, I lose shield heals. Everything is a tradeoff, and finding the right "balance" to meet the majority of scenarios is harder than it looks.
That was one of them. You'll note the one you pointed out was made in January hardly w/in the last 2 months nor all of the sudden. So yeah, you still need to work on your search skills, or at least basic math.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
So basically, every single KDF Cruiser, none of which have a second Lt+ tactical ability, and therefore, by extension, every single KDF ship, since every other KDF ship is already completely obsolete, is worthless, since their only ability is unusable.
TacInit has TRIBBLE uptime, which puts you in exactly the same problem.
At the significant cost of 3 doff slots, leaving you with pretty much no other standard 3-doff schtick, and the loss of most of your on-demand aux utility. Sure, there are ways to mitigate some of these effects, but they all carry their own costs and drawbacks.
And after all this, it's not like the ships which were saved from the junkheap by this have suddenly become the greatest things ever.
I agree pretty much every klink ship is obsolete yes.
Tac Init Uptime is 33%... so I was wrong I should have said 1.33 cannon abilities. Of course if your decloaking you should have rapid fire constant for 1 min before your tac init cools down.
Yes the significant loss of doff slots.... lol The point I was making is 3 doff slots for 3 tech doffs... If you wanted to do the same thing on say your klink cruiser with out using tech doffs... you would need.
3 Dmg Control
3 Cannon Doffs
2 Tac Team doffs
That is 8 doffs.... and on top of that Tech doffs also give you 2 copies of RSP (No doff for that) 2 copies of DEM 3 (No doff for that either)... depending on the ship perhaps 2 copies of Eject Warp Plasma (no doff for that).
What does it cost you... ya 3 doff slots... ohhh my expensive.
What else does it cost... you have to run one copy of Aux to bat... again OHHH my no.
1) the skill isn't as useless as people let on.
2) it no longer shares a global with EPTx.... if it still did I would shut up.
Honestly everyones love of aux to bat on there klink cruisers is the reason we are not all screaming holy murder at Cryptic to fix the painfuly obsolete Klink faction these days. (on a wider level Cruisers in general... for the most part all anyone flys is the half escort or half sci ship cruisers these days... how many people fly Cruisers with Commander and Lt Commander Engi slot versions these days)
Yeah, it's definitely not "squishy," as those who have tried to kill me will (hopefully) attest. And I do slot a Mark XI neutronium with the the [Turn] modifier from time to time - keep it handy in inventory for when I run into Elachi spam. However, I always swap-out Nukara for it instead of one of the FCs.
My thinking behind the 2x FCs is to keep the Leech sucking as much power from the enemy as possible (along with the less reliable Pol procs). Draining them, even a little, is the only way to allow my anemic DPS (12-13K nominal in PvE runs) to wear them down. I suppose I could swap out [Pla] for [Huh] on the second FC, however, I'm scrounging for every incremental DPS boost I can find, and a little plasma damage couldn't hurt.
To reiterate, my main problem is spikey escorts with shield penetration. As soon as I start slotting armor to compensate, I eat into my offensive potential. 1x fleet neutronium - at the sacrifice of Nukara - seems to be a reasonable compromise. However, even then I'm susceptible to elite-level players with their "one-pass-and-you're toast" DPS levels. I could slot more neutroniums, but then I'm shading into "zombie cruiser" territory where I live forever but can't hurt a fly.
As for swapping TSS for HE, this is another example of sacrificing a shield heal for a hull heal. Against opponents with penetration damage, yes it makes sense. But for the vast majority of players who need to wear down my shields first (as opposed to shooting straight through them), dropping TSS takes away one of my more effective buffs.
In practice, I use TSS to bridge between RSP activations (I also have the RSP doff for 20.1 sec uptime). Without it, I'd be relying on my EPtX cycle alone, which I doubt would be enough to close the RSP gap during sustained, multi-target engagements.
Bottom Line: There simply aren't any complete solutions to the spikey escort problem. If I slot armor, I lose offense. If I slot hull heals, I lose shield heals. Everything is a tradeoff, and finding the right "balance" to meet the majority of scenarios is harder than it looks.
RCK
I'd switch out he FC instead of the nukara the more ACC the better 10%extra accuracy is better than the slight increase in drain which most pvp players will negate with a couple of points in PI or even their own leaching of you
----=====This is my opinion you don't have to listen and no one else has to read them these "OPINIONS" are based on my exploits and my learning other people will have their opinions and that's fine just don't knock my way of doing things thanks=====---- :cool:
I'd switch out he FC instead of the nukara the more ACC the better 10%extra accuracy is better than the slight increase in drain which most pvp players will negate with a couple of points in PI or even their own leaching of you
No question, accuracy is good - especially vs. those EPtE speed demons who flit in and out of range constantly. However, against bigger targets - cruisers and dreads - I've found the drain helps wear them down during the inevitable slug-fest/broadside "beam measuring" competition.
So...another case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't." There's just no right answer to some of these questions.
I may take others' advice and slot another Embassy FC with the [HuH] modifier and give up on my [Pla] version since it's contributing so little to the whole.
You people still want to nerf the only thing that helps out cruisers? Look at the big picture!
Not helpful. I suggest you read more of the thread than just the title. Like, the actual discussion.
To people claiming that A2B is the only way cruisers are viable in endgame content: does it not bother you that the only way to run a cruiser is by using a gimmick build that costs either many millions or lots of time to gear up?
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume the answer will be yes, seeing as build diversity and choices are nice.
Right then. Consider that A2B does things to a core mechanic no other method can get even close to matching, in terms of effectiveness - the benefits have been compared to running 8-12 doffs, some of which do not actually exist, such as RSP & DEM cooldown doffs.
Then, consider this position: A nerf to A2B (or, rather, to technician doffs) is not necessarily disastrous, as long as it is accompanied by other tweaks to cruisers. Preferably buffing non-tac cruisers without buffing escorts overly much.
Sounds reasonable, no?
That's the general thrust of constructive discussions going on, it seems to me, and it feels like that's what we should be aiming for.
Went from an AtB Plasma Torp/Mines build where I was going to grab the Elite Scorps to the AtB FAW R-Tet and looking at the Elite Widows. I just picture the Scorps HY Torps disappearing in all the rest of the FAW going on...meh.
To me, Plasma's been neutered in PvP because of that combination of AtB HE, WCE(Cleanse), and even the 2pc Borg doing enough healing to counter the burns. Heck, the 2pc Borg proc is the best defense I've seen against the Sensor Scan/Nukara Mine abomination.
PvE on the other hand, heh - wish all my guys had that fun mix of Plasma going for them that some of them do.
Fair enough, I guess I was being a tad short sighted and not seeing how rubbish elite scorps would be in PvP. AtB FAW JHEC is a force to be reckoned with in the right hands but no more so than the JHAS tbh, just different play styles.
Ask hank about the dkora he faced in the near past in premades vs premades and I bet you'll soon change your mind.....
To be honest, op/not op, hawk already spoke on this matter. Even he admitted it was op. The thing is, its that prolific, the outcry from everyone in sto would be too much for cryptic so its going to probably remain untouched.
A2B before Marion doff was slightly op, post it was super buffed. Dem runs off power, weapons do more damage for 8 secs and dem does more, ergo super buff. Before you had a tail off in power which lead to less damage over time. This semi kept it in check.
Also, before, you never had super resists aka fleet shields / rep / consoles. This gave the A2B user a noticeable drop in survivability. Now, survivability has become a none issue.
In summary, A2B gains more and more with power creep. If it isn't checked, it will be worse
than the bfi doff ever was. Probably already is.
I know , i guess you didnt read my previous comments, where i confirmed that aux2batt cruisers in earlier seasons were definetely overpowered, see smeagols or your d'kora, but i am talking about today's aux2batt builds, which lost on power considerably due to all those changes, like rep system,, a new faction letting feds and klings look very badly and so on. from these changes escorts profitted way more than aux2 batt cruisers.
Not helpful. I suggest you read more of the thread than just the title. Like, the actual discussion.
To people claiming that A2B is the only way cruisers are viable in endgame content: does it not bother you that the only way to run a cruiser is by using a gimmick build that costs either many millions or lots of time to gear up?
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume the answer will be yes, seeing as build diversity and choices are nice.
Right then. Consider that A2B does things to a core mechanic no other method can get even close to matching, in terms of effectiveness - the benefits have been compared to running 8-12 doffs, some of which do not actually exist, such as RSP & DEM cooldown doffs.
Then, consider this position: A nerf to A2B (or, rather, to technician doffs) is not necessarily disastrous, as long as it is accompanied by other tweaks to cruisers. Preferably buffing non-tac cruisers without buffing escorts overly much.
Sounds reasonable, no?
That's the general thrust of constructive discussions going on, it seems to me, and it feels like that's what we should be aiming for.
I know , i guess you didnt read my previous comments, where i confirmed that aux2batt cruisers in earlier seasons were definetely overpowered, see smeagols or your d'kora, but i am talking about today's aux2batt builds, which lost on power considerably due to all those changes, like rep system,, a new faction letting feds and klings look very badly and so on. from these changes escorts profitted way more than aux2 batt cruisers.
i dont need to ask hank i faced those myself
how is that? last time I checked the new rep got some console for beams and a dem passive for more shield bleethrough .
So the next logical steps is what I said many pages ago, come up with a viable alternative that lets cruisers compete, considering factors like stacking of tactical buffs, captain buffs, 5 people doing it vs 1, both PvP and PvE settings (where in one it might be OP but the other is not better than rolling escort) and it's effects on other parts of the game as well.
Oh and don't forget it has to use current game mechanics, not break everything under the sun AND not involve changing several abilities?
It's not easy but come up with a viable alternative which conforms to all the above and I will be behind you 100%.
how is that? last time I checked the new rep got some console for beams and a dem passive for more shield bleethrough .
the answer is very simple: escorts especially romulans, have more defence than ever before, outrageous dps, due to powerful crith and critd, nukara rep system, combo of plasmonic leech and elite warpcores and so on... boosting ur dps into ridiculous values, the spike they can pullout will hit a cruiser awfully hard and it pops like if u face a bird of prey ^^
yes the console, granting higher accurancy, is good but this accurancy is pretty much neutralized due to the new elusive captains trait and the romulan boffs.
in season 6 an escort usually had a base defence of 70%. now it has been increased by 25 to 95% BASE defence ( boff abilities or passive buffs are excluded)
hmm, and concerning bleedthrough: escorts have equally profitted from those.
Then, consider this position: A nerf to A2B (or, rather, to technician doffs) is not necessarily disastrous, as long as it is accompanied by other tweaks to cruisers. Preferably buffing non-tac cruisers without buffing escorts overly much.
Sounds reasonable, no?
Why preferably buffing non-tac cruisers? Non tac cruisers are fine, no problems with them whatsoever. In fact they work best without an ATB build.
Otherwise yes, reasonable. Not going to happen though. Ever. The amount of time and effort it'd take to rebalance all cruisers most likely means cryptic will never touch them.
As it stands now, cruisers are fine. Still useless in PvP unless it's a premade, but okay for PvE.
So the next logical steps is what I said many pages ago, come up with a viable alternative that lets cruisers compete, considering factors like stacking of tactical buffs, captain buffs, 5 people doing it vs 1, both PvP and PvE settings (where in one it might be OP but the other is not better than rolling escort) and it's effects on other parts of the game as well.
Oh and don't forget it has to use current game mechanics, not break everything under the sun AND not involve changing several abilities?
It's not easy but come up with a viable alternative which conforms to all the above and I will be behind you 100%.
The problem is, and one which I have waffled on about is that cryptic never gave us the rules of balance which they abide by. Frankly, they make it up as they go along which has lead to what we have today.
Good example of a potential rule for balance would be:
Tactical toons cannot maintain power levels anywhere near as good as an enginner ergo tac = spike and engineer = suppression.
Incentivise engineers for being in cruisers by giving + 5 to all systems, scis by giving buffs to particle gens etc for being in sci ships etc etc?!?
Once these types of rules are clearly laid out, only then would balance of any form occur.
What I'm trying to say is balance from one person to the next is very subjective unless it can be judged against a defined criteria. In the absence of that, most can spot things that stick out and point it out as such.
As for a viable alternative, specific doff for single beams?!?!
the answer is very simple: escorts especially romulans, have more defence than ever before, outrageous dps, due to powerful crith and critd, nukara rep system, combo of plasmonic leech and elite warpcores and so on... boosting ur dps into ridiculous values, the spike they can pullout will hit a cruiser awfully hard and it pops like if u face a bird of prey ^^
yes the console, granting higher accurancy, is good but this accurancy is pretty much neutralized due to the new elusive captains trait and the romulan boffs.
in season 6 an escort usually had a base defence of 70%. now it has been increased by 25 to 95% BASE defence ( boff abilities or passive buffs are excluded)
hmm, and concerning bleedthrough: escorts have equally profitted from those.
So why not use a Ronnie with a2b and Marion? Same issue just amplified.....
yup, might be one solution. a rommy galor would be definetely a tougher opponent than a fed or klink one. It is noticeable that rommy aux2 batt builds will endanger escorts more in combat. they wont be superior though but they can match those new uber escorts in some way
Comments
Sometimes that power creep offsets things that were otherwise balancing something. Those same changes, if they're not part of the balancing for something - well, they're not going to mean the same thing.
Don't go all Buddha on me virus
Wow, that made my head hurt reading what I typed there...lol.
X is balanced by A.
Y is not balanced by A.
Power Creep offsets the influence of A.
X benefits more than Y.
It is pretty much as Bpharma said:
Photonic Officer, not even PO 3, can hold a candle to even a single A2B with 3 Technician DOFFs in comparison.
Yeah pet debuffs are bs too. That should be the realm of sci boff powers.
You want cruisers to be more viable, in pvp anyway? Dump fleet shields and tone down MACO shields. Those resists began the end of pressure damage from energy weapons.
Most Cruisers turned too slow for Scis to reliably apply SNB et al in the past, you want that back nerf EPtE and go back to slow boats.
Drop some of the passive repairs and power handouts and Tacs couldn't fly them as effectively as Engineers either.
But none of that is going to happen as much as it would be nice.
Just like nerfing Aux2batt would be nice, it's not going to happen unless cryptic has a lotto doff they want to sell to have a similar effect.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Your search skills need improving.
1st I know I've mentioned problems w/aux2batt for far longer than 2 months, I just let it go after awhile. Not to rehash the past, but I was accused of flaming and all other kinds of things. Keep in mind this was before fleet shields killed spray and pray type cvs/crf builds, it was b/c I flew them including single aux2batts that I knew how strong they were. Fleet Torkaht and KDF Vet in particular were strong w/aux2batt.
Fyi, tech doffs changed about 1 year ago (no more shared cooldown w/eptx), but even before those changes there were people who knew how to cycle it well in between epts etc.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Aux2batt searchs 500 results total where aux2batt is mentioned in a thread but the majority of those are build advice question only the 2 I specifically quoted have nerf or overpowered and aux2batt in the title and only 6 threads mention "aux2batt, nerf, overpowered" together
and all those are in the pvp subforum so seems search works fine. Although you must be referring to this thread Top Concerns of PvP Balance
Edit: So is A2B being "OP" mainly a PvP concern then?
That was one of them. You'll note the one you pointed out was made in January hardly w/in the last 2 months nor all of the sudden. So yeah, you still need to work on your search skills, or at least basic math.
Edit: Here's an older one for you
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=490811
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Searching can be hampered by the following:
"aux2batt, nerf, overpowered"
aux2batt, Aux to Battery, Emergency to Battery, AtB, A2B...etc, etc, etc.
overpowered, over powered, OP...
Sometimes you have to hit up Google, Bing, etc - to do the search with a better chance of success than you might get with the forum's own search feature.
It is kind of fun to go back and search old things, mind you...
This was kind of funny...08-01-2011, 01:02 PM
...as an aside, the old threads are often far more entertaining than the new threads - imho of course.
Also from the PvP subforum so is the main A2B issue when it is used in combination with other items (Elite Fleet shields for example) in the PvP setting generally?
Granted I have A2B Galor I use use occasionally on a Fed engineer but I also use the KCB, spiral waves and Wide-Angle Quantum torp in that build mainly for lols in pve.
Ahh TY virus I don't generally search that far back as things get changed and broken with each patch it seems.
So basically, every single KDF Cruiser, none of which have a second Lt+ tactical ability, and therefore, by extension, every single KDF ship, since every other KDF ship is already completely obsolete, is worthless, since their only ability is unusable.
TacInit has TRIBBLE uptime, which puts you in exactly the same problem.
At the significant cost of 3 doff slots, leaving you with pretty much no other standard 3-doff schtick, and the loss of most of your on-demand aux utility. Sure, there are ways to mitigate some of these effects, but they all carry their own costs and drawbacks.
And after all this, it's not like the ships which were saved from the junkheap by this have suddenly become the greatest things ever.
Yeah, it's definitely not "squishy," as those who have tried to kill me will (hopefully) attest. And I do slot a Mark XI neutronium with the the [Turn] modifier from time to time - keep it handy in inventory for when I run into Elachi spam. However, I always swap-out Nukara for it instead of one of the FCs.
My thinking behind the 2x FCs is to keep the Leech sucking as much power from the enemy as possible (along with the less reliable Pol procs). Draining them, even a little, is the only way to allow my anemic DPS (12-13K nominal in PvE runs) to wear them down. I suppose I could swap out [Pla] for [Huh] on the second FC, however, I'm scrounging for every incremental DPS boost I can find, and a little plasma damage couldn't hurt.
To reiterate, my main problem is spikey escorts with shield penetration. As soon as I start slotting armor to compensate, I eat into my offensive potential. 1x fleet neutronium - at the sacrifice of Nukara - seems to be a reasonable compromise. However, even then I'm susceptible to elite-level players with their "one-pass-and-you're toast" DPS levels. I could slot more neutroniums, but then I'm shading into "zombie cruiser" territory where I live forever but can't hurt a fly.
As for swapping TSS for HE, this is another example of sacrificing a shield heal for a hull heal. Against opponents with penetration damage, yes it makes sense. But for the vast majority of players who need to wear down my shields first (as opposed to shooting straight through them), dropping TSS takes away one of my more effective buffs.
In practice, I use TSS to bridge between RSP activations (I also have the RSP doff for 20.1 sec uptime). Without it, I'd be relying on my EPtX cycle alone, which I doubt would be enough to close the RSP gap during sustained, multi-target engagements.
Bottom Line: There simply aren't any complete solutions to the spikey escort problem. If I slot armor, I lose offense. If I slot hull heals, I lose shield heals. Everything is a tradeoff, and finding the right "balance" to meet the majority of scenarios is harder than it looks.
RCK
I was wondering how long it'd take for someone to dig up that old thread of mine.
Ah, youth, when I was far more ignorant about the game just but a few months ago.
I agree pretty much every klink ship is obsolete yes.
Tac Init Uptime is 33%... so I was wrong I should have said 1.33 cannon abilities. Of course if your decloaking you should have rapid fire constant for 1 min before your tac init cools down.
Yes the significant loss of doff slots.... lol The point I was making is 3 doff slots for 3 tech doffs... If you wanted to do the same thing on say your klink cruiser with out using tech doffs... you would need.
3 Dmg Control
3 Cannon Doffs
2 Tac Team doffs
That is 8 doffs.... and on top of that Tech doffs also give you 2 copies of RSP (No doff for that) 2 copies of DEM 3 (No doff for that either)... depending on the ship perhaps 2 copies of Eject Warp Plasma (no doff for that).
What does it cost you... ya 3 doff slots... ohhh my expensive.
What else does it cost... you have to run one copy of Aux to bat... again OHHH my no.
1) the skill isn't as useless as people let on.
2) it no longer shares a global with EPTx.... if it still did I would shut up.
Honestly everyones love of aux to bat on there klink cruisers is the reason we are not all screaming holy murder at Cryptic to fix the painfuly obsolete Klink faction these days. (on a wider level Cruisers in general... for the most part all anyone flys is the half escort or half sci ship cruisers these days... how many people fly Cruisers with Commander and Lt Commander Engi slot versions these days)
I'd switch out he FC instead of the nukara the more ACC the better
No question, accuracy is good - especially vs. those EPtE speed demons who flit in and out of range constantly. However, against bigger targets - cruisers and dreads - I've found the drain helps wear them down during the inevitable slug-fest/broadside "beam measuring" competition.
So...another case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't." There's just no right answer to some of these questions.
I may take others' advice and slot another Embassy FC with the [HuH] modifier and give up on my [Pla] version since it's contributing so little to the whole.
RCK
Not helpful. I suggest you read more of the thread than just the title. Like, the actual discussion.
To people claiming that A2B is the only way cruisers are viable in endgame content: does it not bother you that the only way to run a cruiser is by using a gimmick build that costs either many millions or lots of time to gear up?
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume the answer will be yes, seeing as build diversity and choices are nice.
Right then. Consider that A2B does things to a core mechanic no other method can get even close to matching, in terms of effectiveness - the benefits have been compared to running 8-12 doffs, some of which do not actually exist, such as RSP & DEM cooldown doffs.
Then, consider this position: A nerf to A2B (or, rather, to technician doffs) is not necessarily disastrous, as long as it is accompanied by other tweaks to cruisers. Preferably buffing non-tac cruisers without buffing escorts overly much.
Sounds reasonable, no?
That's the general thrust of constructive discussions going on, it seems to me, and it feels like that's what we should be aiming for.
Fair enough, I guess I was being a tad short sighted and not seeing how rubbish elite scorps would be in PvP. AtB FAW JHEC is a force to be reckoned with in the right hands but no more so than the JHAS tbh, just different play styles.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
I know , i guess you didnt read my previous comments, where i confirmed that aux2batt cruisers in earlier seasons were definetely overpowered, see smeagols or your d'kora, but i am talking about today's aux2batt builds, which lost on power considerably due to all those changes, like rep system,, a new faction letting feds and klings look very badly and so on. from these changes escorts profitted way more than aux2 batt cruisers.
i dont need to ask hank i faced those myself
-=Hannibal - Inner Circle PvP-Department=-
Hannibal's YouTube PvP-channel (under construction)
More Inner Circle PvP-Action worth watching from: Hank, Mira Theng and Zimbilimbim
Nailed it perfectly.....
how is that? last time I checked the new rep got some console for beams and a dem passive for more shield bleethrough .
Nailed it again.....
Oh and don't forget it has to use current game mechanics, not break everything under the sun AND not involve changing several abilities?
It's not easy but come up with a viable alternative which conforms to all the above and I will be behind you 100%.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
the answer is very simple: escorts especially romulans, have more defence than ever before, outrageous dps, due to powerful crith and critd, nukara rep system, combo of plasmonic leech and elite warpcores and so on... boosting ur dps into ridiculous values, the spike they can pullout will hit a cruiser awfully hard and it pops like if u face a bird of prey ^^
yes the console, granting higher accurancy, is good but this accurancy is pretty much neutralized due to the new elusive captains trait and the romulan boffs.
in season 6 an escort usually had a base defence of 70%. now it has been increased by 25 to 95% BASE defence ( boff abilities or passive buffs are excluded)
hmm, and concerning bleedthrough: escorts have equally profitted from those.
-=Hannibal - Inner Circle PvP-Department=-
Hannibal's YouTube PvP-channel (under construction)
More Inner Circle PvP-Action worth watching from: Hank, Mira Theng and Zimbilimbim
Why preferably buffing non-tac cruisers? Non tac cruisers are fine, no problems with them whatsoever. In fact they work best without an ATB build.
Otherwise yes, reasonable. Not going to happen though. Ever. The amount of time and effort it'd take to rebalance all cruisers most likely means cryptic will never touch them.
As it stands now, cruisers are fine. Still useless in PvP unless it's a premade, but okay for PvE.
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
The problem is, and one which I have waffled on about is that cryptic never gave us the rules of balance which they abide by. Frankly, they make it up as they go along which has lead to what we have today.
Good example of a potential rule for balance would be:
Tactical toons cannot maintain power levels anywhere near as good as an enginner ergo tac = spike and engineer = suppression.
Incentivise engineers for being in cruisers by giving + 5 to all systems, scis by giving buffs to particle gens etc for being in sci ships etc etc?!?
Once these types of rules are clearly laid out, only then would balance of any form occur.
What I'm trying to say is balance from one person to the next is very subjective unless it can be judged against a defined criteria. In the absence of that, most can spot things that stick out and point it out as such.
As for a viable alternative, specific doff for single beams?!?!
So why not use a Ronnie with a2b and Marion? Same issue just amplified.....
-=Hannibal - Inner Circle PvP-Department=-
Hannibal's YouTube PvP-channel (under construction)
More Inner Circle PvP-Action worth watching from: Hank, Mira Theng and Zimbilimbim