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Advice for my Vesta?
kirscht
Member Posts: 95 Arc User
Here is the link to my build and skill tree:
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=kirschtsciship_4495
I know, I know. A lot wrong with it. That's why I'm here. But trust me - it's a major improvement over where I used to be. Anyhow: I have it built for crowd control. But at the same time I'd like to have some fairly decent firepower, at least so people don't just shrug me off and wonder if a gnat got queued up into their match. Or maybe "effective" firepower relative to my role would be a better way putting it?
My biggest issues right now are shields and hull. They disappear rather quickly. I don't do much PvP with it because when I try I don't get much play time if you know what I mean. So that's what I need the most advice on. One of the reasons my skill tree looks so bad is that I figured that as a science captain, tactical and engi stuff would be a natural weakness so I should build them up. Not working. So how do I keep my shields up and hull intact? I know everyone says neutronium, but with my hull problem I thought having the higher kinetic rating with the monotanium would help.
Power levels: never changed the preset values, usually have them set to shield (trying to keep them up and all).
Thanks in advance for any CONSTRUCTIVE criticism
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=kirschtsciship_4495
I know, I know. A lot wrong with it. That's why I'm here. But trust me - it's a major improvement over where I used to be. Anyhow: I have it built for crowd control. But at the same time I'd like to have some fairly decent firepower, at least so people don't just shrug me off and wonder if a gnat got queued up into their match. Or maybe "effective" firepower relative to my role would be a better way putting it?
My biggest issues right now are shields and hull. They disappear rather quickly. I don't do much PvP with it because when I try I don't get much play time if you know what I mean. So that's what I need the most advice on. One of the reasons my skill tree looks so bad is that I figured that as a science captain, tactical and engi stuff would be a natural weakness so I should build them up. Not working. So how do I keep my shields up and hull intact? I know everyone says neutronium, but with my hull problem I thought having the higher kinetic rating with the monotanium would help.
Power levels: never changed the preset values, usually have them set to shield (trying to keep them up and all).
Thanks in advance for any CONSTRUCTIVE criticism
Post edited by kirscht on
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Comments
A few thoughts:
- Get HE 1 & 2. Works well as a sci version of Engineering Team.
- Are you trying to hold everyone in place for CC or offensive because Tractor Beam Repulsors and GW don't exactly do the same thing.
-Don't mix beams with cannons... pick one based on what you like and stick with it.
-Add another MK XII blue or higher shield regen console for that empty sci console slot.
-Get on the exchange a MK XII Resilient shield array and ditch the one you have. It has bad regen and doesn't stop bleedthrough.
-Consider Chroniton torps: they slow down enemies
My rec:
Lt. Cmd Uni: PH 1, HE 2, TSS 3
Ens Un: TTT1
Lt. Tac: TorpSpread 1, CRF 1 (cannon build) or Torp spread 1, BFAW 2 (beam build)
Lt. Eng: EP2S 1, Aux to SIF 1
Cmd Sci: HE1, ST2, Tractor Beam 2, GW 3
-You've maxed too many skills. I've said this recently in another thread but it bears repeating: it is almost never worth the expense of maxing a skill, as the diminishing returns outweigh the cost of investment. There are 6-7 exceptions to this rule, starship manoeuvres, targeting systems, structural integiry, hull repair, shield emitters and shield systems are worth maxing. Flow capacitors as well for energy drain builds. Read this: http://home.comcast.net/~amicus/Skill%20Point%20Effects.htm
-You've spent more in ground than you perhaps should. You can have a maximum of 300k skill points spent in space skills, and 66K is what's left over for ground. That's more than enough for ground IMO, while Space needs all it can get IMO.
-The above poster says that you shouldn't mix beams and cannons, I would provisionally agree, however DBBs and turrets are a good combo. If you want to make use of the Vesta's subsystem targeting innate abilities, then you'll need a beam of some sort. The turn rate of the Vesta is good enough that you don't really need beam arrays in the aft, because that will encourage you to just try and broadside. Either get a cannon set up, with turrets in the back and CRF or CSV in one of your lieutenant slots; go for a DBB in the front and ditch the BAs at the back in favour of turrets and maybe a borg kinetic cutting beam; or go for a torpedo boat with the aux cannons the only energy weapon you fire, with mines in the back. If you go for beam arrays you kinda need a good amount of them both fore and aft to make any kind of meaningful damage. The Vesta's turn rate is pretty good, same as the Intrepid's actually (although I personally think that's BS, the Intrepid is smaller and should turn better IMO). Meaning you don't have to broadside like a cruiser beamboat does. The Vesta is also unique in being able to equip DHCs and gets the aux power DHC as its gimmick, so I'd argue a cannon build is close to optimal.
-Also get rid of the transphasic console and stick another phaser relay in there, if you go with energy weapons. Doing the omega and new rom reps gives you access to two particularly good consoles, and if you have the lobi then the tachyokinetic converter is another good option.
-I agree with the above poster about the shield. I would instead of his recommendation, put the Jem'hadar shield in there as a stop-gap for when you get something better, either through the reputation system or through a Fleet.
-Sci powers are fairly underpowered. I'd argue with the above poster that TBR is a very effective sci power, one of the few truly effective sci powers, if used correctly. I'm still getting experience with it. I can tell you though I used to use GW3 for a long time, and eventually it became apparent to me that it sucked. As CC, it didn't do a great job. As damage it sucked. TBR is great CC, and does good damage, but it has a bit of learning curve to it. Aux power affects its repel strength, NOT its damage. Particle generators (the skill) affects its damage and so does anything that boosts this skill (like consoles and some of the high-end deflectors). One potential idea I'm thinking of to maximise TBR's damage on target while at the same time reducing its repel strength is to use aux2batt in someway. But really the thing about TBR is that there is a time and place in which to use it. Here are some good times to use it: Starbase blockade, pop TBR and Evasive and push those ships off the freighter; in Infected, when the nanite spheres are about to cost the team the optional because a generator was popped too early; in Khitomer, if a probe is about to go into the time vortex; in Cure, if someone popped a cube too early and now you have a squad or raptors en route to the Kang. Other, more general times: to push enemies away from a team member who is about to blow up. Anytime you're getting smashed and need to get out of dodge. Also cubes are not affected by the repel strength, which means it's always a great idea to use it on cubes and tac cubes, especially when they've launched a plasma torpedo. Also I haven't played it but I hear it's really good for No Win Scenario.
Bad times: any time where by doing so, you prevent another team member from putting damage on target. This is one of those things you have to have a feel for and be observant about. Don't just pop it because you can, be mindful of your surroundings and pop it if and when the situation calls for it. Since you've already got tractor beam 3, you can use that with a tractor beam doff (if you don't already use one) most of the time, and that would put TBR on a cooldown often enough that you'll only use it when you have to.
My advice, since you're going full science, is to drop the energy weapons entirely and switch completely over to transphasic or plasma torpedos. This will save you from having to waste any power on weapons and instead use it all in Aux and Shields. The Breen Set will really help transphasic damage and the cluster-launchers will be able to one-shot smaller ships.
Skillwise, it's largely preference, but I see you haven't got Transfer Shield Strength, but you are running Science Team. Do you primarily PvP? Generally Speaking; use TSS for PvE, Science Team for PvP. The Former does not share cooldowns with most other abilities, actually strengthens shields instead of simply 'healing' them, and can be used on other people like science team.
I noticed you commenting on trying to keep your shields up.. and honestly, I think you've fallen into the common trap of high capacity shields. Yes, a Paratrinic on a Science Ship will give you some stupidly large numbers, but the problem is sustainability. High Capacity Shields are moreso for attack ships that are designed to kill things before their shields run out. With a ship that is able to run high power in shields, you really should be considering regeneration shields. The shield modifier of science vessels naturally offsets the lower capacity of regen shields, and you gain all the regeneration benefits of the shields themself as well as the benefits of high shield(natural regen and resistances) and aux power(aux to shields and TSS).
The Borg/Assimilated set is an excellent goal you should be going for with the Vesta. Not only does it have an excellent Regen shield, but the 2-part set bonus will help offset the bleedthrough weakness of the Vesta due to its low hull strength(which is really the only 'solution' for the ship).
Meanwhile, the Breen set (and weapons) should probably be the shorter term goal. You are going to be a bit fragile with it, but it will provide you with some 'teeth' to go with your support capacity. Try to find a nice purple regen shield on the exchange(should be relatively cheap) to hold you over until you get into Omega Rep.
One thing I forgot to mention is that in the empty sci slot there is actually the sympathetic fermion transceiver console, I just couldn't find where it was listed on the build planner.
I have been thinking of dropping either the cannons or the torps in front on favor of some sort of beams in order to better take advantage of the subsystem targeting.
I put the paratrinic on there because the Hilbert guide recommended it as a good stop gap until one could get the borg stuff, which I am finally getting close to. I don't think I've tried the breen that was suggested but I have tried a few others and they didn't seem to hold up as well so I switched back to the paratrinic. Or maybe I just looked at numbers, or didn't try the right ones.
I have don't use the TBR except in the situations mentioned, unless I'm playing an episode. In that case I will sometimes use them if I am a bit to close to the target as I'm coming about to line up my cannons, I can just push them out in front of me to give me some more distance and line them up. I've been iffy about GW. Some say its great, some say its not. I'm not sure I've noticed much with it in PvP. but on the other hand there aren't a tremendous amount of CC powers to choose from.
Since I want to maximize the sci build (I bought the sci version, afterall,), should I drop the tac ensign in the universal spot, and put a sci ensing in there?
I think I get my thinking stuck sometimes. Like my hesitancy to get rid of the cannons simply because it came with one so that must mean it should have cannons right? I need to let go fo these things I think.
Let me ask a couple other things: Shield emitter amplifiers: worth anything? Also the warp cores: Lets say I use something that has a [A->W] modifier. (I won't on this ship, its just an example). It says that it adds 7.5% of my aux power to my weapons power. Does that mean it TAKES 7.5% AWAY from my aux power and throws it into weapons?
Love the feedback overall, throw some more at me. Like skill tree secifics. Also, what do you think my power levels SHOULD be?
(at least nobody said that they looked at my build and threw up in their mouth like I saw with another vesta poster.)
GW3 is only useful when there are large mobs to get caught up in them if you position ur ship 5km from the GW and hit TBR the ships will get pushed out then pulled back in by GW so they get hit again with TBR also hit with AOE weapons or powers and they all get caught in them, such as trico's, torp spread or csv
GW and TBR are very good in CE, TBR is useful for doing extra damage against cubes and other large/stationary objects.
if you want to keep GW then get the grav sci doff as that will improve the effectiveness of GW, anything the improves graviton generator and particle generator will help GW and TBR
TBR are good against fighter swarms, destructible projectiles and tholian web as they do cause damage and prevent damage from them, just hit it when their within 5 km. GW can also be used to stop these but the 90 arc make it less useful then TBR
drop the cannons and pick up beam you can take dbb if you can maintain target in front arc you lose a bit of dps from dhc but will be able to use subsys targeting
as for warp core say A->w it mean if A is 100 then u get 7.5 extra power added to W without affecting A
not a lot of advice for shield emitters as i find neutronium hull more usefull and i put mostly universal console to enhance crit and torp/mine damage
if you go with torps then get the pw doff to reduce torp cooldown
Mine Trap Supporter
No I didn't know that. Are you sure? I hate to try and then lose my ship. (I got 3 kids, so 25 bucks on pretend ships isn't always a priority). Am I correct in assuming that I should run a sci ship at full aux to maximize the sci powers, and therefore I should run weapons that draw off aux rather than weapons systems in order to maximize those? if I chose DBB's to get the subsystem targeting, do they make aux versions of those? I like the canons because they do nice damage, but right now I have to fly through or swing around in order to utilize the sub sys targeting. Almost feel like I'm wasting a major sci ship asset.
I've been thinking about the armor. I suppose if I could afford two neutronium MK XI or XII uncommons, I would get just as much kinetic resist as I have with the one monotanium, plus the same for all energy, instead of switching out consoles depending on the type used by whatever NPC I'm going to fight, plus the fact that PvP hits you with multiple types. Am I catching on there?
Thoughts?
I'm absolutely positive about that. I've done it myself as I have 2 Aux cannons on my ship as I mentioned earlier. Some people run 3 of them and skip a torpedo launcher as well. You see all the ships you buy in the C-store are account bound. That means that it's a one time only purchase. You can dismiss and claim the ships as many times as you want on any and all characters on your account. All you do is dismiss your ship and then reclaim it from the C-store window. It costs you nothing extra, you never have to pay another fee for a ship you already bought. Just make sure that you take any gear you have equipped off your ship before you dismiss it. Any gear that you leave on it will be lost when you dismiss the ship, so just make sure you empty it out and you will be fine.
And yes, Aux enhances the effects of your science powers. The beauty of the Vesta is that you can run full blast Aux at 125 (or 130 if you have the core for it) power for your science powers and still get max damage from the cannons since those scale off of your Aux power and not your Weapons power. Right now the only weapons that scale off of Aux are the cannons that come on the Vesta, so you won't be able to get a DBB that uses Aux.
When it comes to the subsystem targeting, look at it this way. Just because your ship can do something doesn't mean that you have to use it. Personally I find that the damage I get from the cannons and turrets far outweighs the loss of the subsystem targeting powers. They're nice, but those are more useful on the sci ships that can't use the Aux cannons.
Ultimately though it's your choice on how you run your ship. However as others mentioned above, don't mix beams and cannons. Pick one style and capitalize on it.
Mine Trap Supporter
That all makes a lot of sense, actually. And as I thought about all the times I've used the subsystem targeting, I can't think of a time when it really had much impact. It's certainly never been the thing that gave me the victory or saved me from defeat. So now you have me leaning toward three aux cannons up front.
Then I can max out my aux power, equip a warp core with A->E modifier help which should give a little boost to turn rate, right? I think I've noticed my turn rate goes up when I set my power level to the engine preset, is why I'm thinking that.
Will my shield strength suffer by not having more power placed in shields? I've started the borg regen shield project so hopefully I'll have that soon.
Personally, I think the Aux DHCs are a trap to sucker people into using a poor weapon choice for a science ship, but their ability to run off of Aux power is a nice enough 'feature'(it does still mean that your science skills will be less effective than they could be while the cannons are firing). Furthermore, turrets(there are no aux versions) will do next to no damage unless you've got power in weapons - and if you are running power to weapons, you're probably just better off with regular DHCs.
That said, if you really want to run them, then yes, you can dismiss and reclaim your Vesta multiple times to get several of the cannons(only the Vesta can equip them). The Vesta is an account unlock, and you're free to claim it as many times as you like at no additional charge. (Lockbox and fleet ships are the ones you have to be careful with.)
I would combine the aux dhc with the andorian phasers and seemed to work great, the enemies shields would just wash away with a single AOE cannon attack in that setup.
Power levels on all of my science ships especially those with cannons would be kept at 100 wp 50 shield lowest I could get the engines, and as high as I could get the aux.
50 in shields ensures it's basic functions for regen. I'd also max my resist to power drains with the skill tree so this would never drop. I resist the borg drains all the time in elites.
I'd also suggest you get rid of your points in grav gens because they are completely useless in PVE. They don't do a single thing to improve holds honestly. I've had 0 on mine forever now and the holds work the same as when I tested it using 9 in that skill and having all blue grav gens, completely worthless skill drain imo. If you're using it for anything I'd suggest maxing part gen and WC efficiency and potential. Honestly as a science power levels have been my worst bane.
Also impulse thrusters are pretty much useless. I'd put my points in WCP WCE and then three points in thrusters if you really want to have a little extra maneuve when positioning for the DHC limited range.
The advice I'm giving is for PVE mind you definitely not for PVP as I never PVP at all. I have so many science and tac slots on mine that I have science and tactical team for any debuffs that come my way. I only use EPTX skills on my engineer slot that way with the new warp cores out I can push my power levels up above their limit. I also would recommend getting the Doffs for power levels. I have been using the battery equipment and consoles as well for shields/aux/all power levels. I use doffs for getting a bonus when using a battery type, and a bonus to all power levels when using any EPTX skill. This is essential imo as it gives you more to work with than just 1 boff skill with a cooldown.
Yeah your engine power boosts turn rate. It should help you keep your front pointed where you need it for the cannons.
As for your shields, there's a few things you can do but it depends on what your goals are for your ship. For example, my ship is set up to be primarily a support ship with enough firepower to hold it's own. I'm not looking to top any DPS charts lol. So what I did is rather than putting skill points into Starship Energy/Projectile Weapon Specialization, I put those points into Starship Warp Core Potential and Starship Shield Performance. Both of those give me a flat bonus to my shield power levels. However if your goal is to get more damage out of your ship, then you might want to keep those. You can also use a Plasmonic Leech console to get a bit more power in all of your systems. There's a bunch of other stuff you can do, but like I said it all depends on what your goal is for your ship.
Mine Trap Supporter
I'd say our goals are similar. I want enough firepower to hold my own, but mostly be able to survive a match while making a contribution through my sci abilities.
Ok. Thought I'd update and post my build so we have something fresh to work with. SO here is the link:
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=kirschtscibuild_4495
Only made a few tweeks so far. Namely, I put the three aux cannons up front, switched out my warp core for an overcharged with [a->e] and replaced the transphasic compressor with a third phaser relay.
I've adjusted my power levels (tell me if this is ok) to: 123 aux, 50 sh, 33 wp, 34 eng.
Going forward:
I think I'll switch out my armor with two neutronium mk XII greens. Those are the best I can get right now, and everybody seems to be saying that the nuetronium will help me out a lot.
As for deflector/engines/shields, everyone is talking about the borg rep stuff so I will work towards that. I am tier two on that so I've opened up those projects now.
As to my aft weapons. I'm thinking all beams, all torps, or a mix. (I just don't like turrets for some reason). Any thoughts on that?
Also: Should I dump that shield emitter amplifier? If so should I get another generator, or go with something that boosts my sci powers?
Also: When choosing my passive abilities throughout the rep system should I choose the ones that improve my weapons or ship health/protection?
Also: Help me define stacking exactly. For example: if I install a MK XII fiddle-faddle counsel with +10% to my fuzzy-wuzzy systems which have a base value of 100 I now have a fuzzy-wuzzy value of 110. So does stacking mean that if I install a second fiddle-faddle counsel that I will gain another 10% off of the original 100 base value, or that it will now add that 10% to the 110 value? My innate sense of the idea of stacking would lead me to believe the latter is the case. Otherwise it might as well just add points instead of a percentage.
Thanks again and I just want to say how awesome and helpful you all have been. I appreciate the time you've taken with me so far.
Yeah the Omega stuff is the good stuff. You're definitely going to want to get some of that.
For aft weapons since you don't want to use turrets...maybe some mines? I've seen some Vesta captains use the Cloaking Tractor mines for extra tractor beam harassment (since you're using Danubes as well) or the Nukara Web Mine Launcher. Might have to play around with a few weapons here to see what you like based on your playstyle. I'm still not a fan of putting beam arrays in the back lol.
Personally I would dump the shield emitter. I find the innate shield regen, even with emitters, to be inadequate. I tend to rely on my BOff skills for that instead. Although I use Transfer Shield Strength II in combination with EptS. You might see more benefit from another generator since you don't use TSS. I usually go with more shield capacity over regen.
For passives I went more of the defensive route, choosing shield buffs over crit buffs. I might go with the more offensive buffs from the Nukara rep though since I took all defensive ones from both Omega and Romulan reps. If you're having trouble keeping your shields up, it might not be a bad idea to pick up the defensive buffs here.
Stacking...from what I understand of stacking is that it boosts your base numbers. So if you put a second console it will give you a boost based off of your base number and not of the already boosted number. These also don't have diminishing returns with the exception of resist consoles.
Mine Trap Supporter
lol. Yeah I think I'm one of the few that does that. My thinking is that turrets don't really seem to do much damage. I know when I'm getting hit with turrets I feel more like I'm getting a quick break. So I use beams to keep the pressure on while I'm coming about again.
But the mines are an interesting idea. Would it be considered mixing weapon types to equip different types of mines? I have three aft slots so I was specifically thinking one tractor mine, one of the nukara web mine (I get that off the nukara rep?) and maybe a chroniton mine. All of these would contribute to the CC goal of my build. And if I use mines in the back, would I really be using weapons power at all, now that I have aux dhc's forward? I could then take that subsystem down to whatever is considered minimum (25?) and redistribute it to my engines maybe?
Yep. As you suspected, you wouldn't be using any weapons power at all since mines and torpedoes don't scale off of it. So with the Aux DHCs up front and mines in the back you could drop weapons to minimum and put that energy somewhere else.
And yeah the Nukara web mines come from T4 Nukara rep. Might take a while to get there (if you don't have it already) but from watching others use it in battle, it seems pretty solid. Not only does it trap them in the web, but it deals kinetic damage to the ship that's caught. It's pretty cool actually.
Mine Trap Supporter
Not to be rude or anything, but do you actually have some data to back up this rather bold claim, or did you just look at the animation 'and it looked about the same'?
LOL. I advise everyone, including myself, to get 9/9 in Impulse Thrusters. Plus the 'Helmsman' trait. Everyone needs to turn fast: the guy zipping by in his bug ship, as well as me trying to strafe in my Recluse.
You go from one exteme to another.
I'm close to a borg assimilated module, any suggestions where I should slot it?
Not that I don't believe everyone about the borg stuff (I do) But when I compare, like, the borg subtranswarp engines to my Jem 'hadar, the borg looks slower? I'm probably not reading it right. I think the neutronium is working out fine. I kind of wish my turn rate was a bit more. Got it up to 22.4/sec right now. Only two engi slots so I can't really add an rcs without sacrificing much needed hull armor.
All in all I'd say it's improving. Really appreciate all the advice.
I could use some more help with the skill tree (which to max, which to leave empty, and anything else important.) I'll check in every couple days to see if anybody has anything to say about it. Other than that, thanks again, and I hope I'll run into you all in-game.