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The art of war; how not to be a whiney pugger
thishorizon
Member Posts: 1,158
As a player that pugs 95% of the time, and as a part of a fleet that has players that have the ability to excel in premade and pug matches, I wish to share with you how we apply ourselves and our minds to the battleshpere.
The text is very old, and invaluable.
1. All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.
2.If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.
3. The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand.
4. It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle.
5. It is the rule in war, if ten times the enemy's strength, surround them; if five times, attack them; if double, be able to divide them; if equal, engage them; if fewer, be able to evade them; if weaker, be able to avoid them.
6. One defends when his strength is inadequate, he attacks when it is abundant.
7. Management of many is the same as management of few. It is a matter of organization.
8.When torrential water tosses boulders, it is because of its momentum. When the strike of a hawk breaks the body of its prey, it is because of timing.
9. The expert in battle seeks his victory from strategic advantage and does not demand it from his men.
10. Treat your men as you would your own beloved sons. And they will follow you into the deepest valley.
11. Speed is the essence of war. Take advantage of the enemy's unpreparedness; travel by unexpected routes and strike him where he has taken no precautions.
-Sun Tzu
Have fun kill bad guys
-thrusters on full-
The text is very old, and invaluable.
1. All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.
2.If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.
3. The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand.
4. It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle.
5. It is the rule in war, if ten times the enemy's strength, surround them; if five times, attack them; if double, be able to divide them; if equal, engage them; if fewer, be able to evade them; if weaker, be able to avoid them.
6. One defends when his strength is inadequate, he attacks when it is abundant.
7. Management of many is the same as management of few. It is a matter of organization.
8.When torrential water tosses boulders, it is because of its momentum. When the strike of a hawk breaks the body of its prey, it is because of timing.
9. The expert in battle seeks his victory from strategic advantage and does not demand it from his men.
10. Treat your men as you would your own beloved sons. And they will follow you into the deepest valley.
11. Speed is the essence of war. Take advantage of the enemy's unpreparedness; travel by unexpected routes and strike him where he has taken no precautions.
-Sun Tzu
Have fun kill bad guys
-thrusters on full-
Post edited by thishorizon on
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Comments
Are they running for running's sake, or is it a "tactical retreat" they will capitalize on by returning and killing someone?
More like life in general in mind. If you follow the teachings of Sun Tzu and Miyamoto Musashi you will realize life is war, everything we go through in our lives is a battle. Live by their words, follow their advice, and you will come out on top more often than not in almost everything you do.
That's exactly what they are trying to do. Make you fight the battle their way so you lose everytime. It's a classic strategy, and they use a false sense of honor to try and shame you into fighting their battle and losing. It's so obvious that I find it funny. People think they are being smart by trying to ridicule you into death and loss. Some people fall for it, others don't. It all depends on the ego, people with huge egos can't take the loss of control and ridicule so they rush in and die. Sun Tzu was a genius.
Aid in leading the Romulan Star Empire back to its former greatness.
Join the Romulan Praetorian Guard and teach those epohh loving hippies what it means to be a true Romulan!
They need to rename PvP to PvS. Player versus spam.
in a purely political definition, its not war. but these are good guidelines for every sort of conflict IRL or in game. really, what human interaction, no mater how pleasant it is, not a conflict?
Don't know if you're being sarcastic or not. . .but he's referring to the mind, our 'temple of intellect'.
This. It always amuses me when someone complains about BoP pilots retreating and cloaking after making an attempt to kill a target. Especially when they start saying how 'crappy' you are because you don't have a 100% kill chance while decloak alpha-striking skilled players.
Fact of the matter is, it is exceedingly difficult to tank in a BoP. The best players can do it for a while, but often have to break off under heavy fire. I myself can't do much against a full alphastrike other than try to dodge part of it or hit RSP and hope the bleedthrough doesn't kill me or someone doesn't subnuke it away. There's a reason BoP pilots run away a lot :P
I suspect part of my problem lies in that I'm still using KHG shields rather than one of those higher-resist shields like Adapted MACO or a Fleet shield. Even with two Field Generators, people can flense away my shield HP.
They were saying things like - "run to spawn like a baby" - standard TRIBBLE
Yeah so I am supposed to sit there until 6 guys final blow me up - respawn and do it again?? Dumb F'ks
American military and most others have done this as a standard tactic whenever outnumbered - retreat and try to draw the enemy into artillary range.
I know right? Also, if they can't kill you, they say HAX!! or ZOMBIE!!! It's really a no-win-situation. All they really want is for you to sit there and die...a lot. That goes for both Feds and KDF. People that say TRIBBLE about cloaking and retreating in a BoP, have never played one lol.
Amen there. And the truly hypocritical thing is all these Romulan players who have their Battle Cloaks now are flying around, in a T'varo, or Scimitar, or Dhe'lan or whatever, and trying to pull de-cloaking alphas, which are all of a sudden ok for THEM to do it, yet for all those years it was the 'evil BoPs' and their 'super-duper-mega-ultra OP' Battle Cloak was just bad bad bad.
Usually they aren't even that good at it, unless they are a long-time vet at it in the first place. They just simply think that it's the 'I win' button they expect it to be and then it isn't.
Sun Tzu's teachings can be applied to business, politics, sports, etc.
Generally wherever different groups or individuals are competing.
What do you mean this is a game!?
"He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him! I'll chase him round the Moons of Nibia, and round the Antares Maelstrom, and round Perdition's flames before I give him up! Prepare to alter course!"
"Full impulse power!!! Damn you!"
Neither I, nor anyone else, is "selling" anything.
Sports are about competition, this is at the heart of pretty much every sporting event in the world.
Anyone who told you different was lying to you.
Nothing says you can't have a winning mindset when playing a game even against people you are friendly with.
That's why it's called "friendly competition".
This goes especially one that pits players specifically against each other.
one word...Olympics. That is all.
Please use google - or your favorite search engine -, and search the meaning of "can be applied to" and once you have a firm grasp of that, we can pick up this conversation where it is now.
Hint: just because it's a philosophy on war, doesn't mean the modern day executives in China who've studied it literally kill each other in boardrooms.
They DO!!! .... in Kill Bill
In a nutshell, sports is competition, but sports without fair play becomes meaningless. There is a saying in the english language: "if you don't cheat your not trying hard enough".
What a terrible mindset. It is the source of a lot of misery in sports. In most sports they have somewhat functional regulatory bodies (see L. Armstrong stripping of titles etc, football -> forced relegation to the second division) and sometimes also self-regularoty mechanisms (bad fouling -> being sent to the emergency Room by the means of retaliation bludgeoning).
I have never played a MMO and [with the exception of Street Fighter] not really played any other online game. For me It was almost like a culture shock when I entered STO PVP.
What makes PVP so exciting to me is the competitive aspect of it. In that sense it is really like sports. Team sports, to be precise. Coordination, practise. I love it.
However, applying fair play sports ethics to STO PVP is problematic.
First of all: the required framework conditions simply do not exist in this game. And that is by design. It's a RPG grindfest. Some people have better ships/gear than others and so on.
And there is no regulatory body. No referees. If people unleashed everything that can be brought into a PVP match, if we considere the totality of all the implementend game mechanics (all skills/consoles and their possible spamming) as the lowest common denominator, then this game is deeply, deeply unfair and there is little we can do about it.
Secondly: What constitutes fair play in the first place? Ask ten PvP'rs and you get ten different answers.
Doing sports for such a long time has deeply shaped my understanding of what competition and fair play means. For the majority of my youth my circle of friends consisted mostly of people who were practising sports thus having comparable attitudes to mine.
I talk to players, I listen, notice their attitudes and social behaviour. And guess what, PVP'ers are no athletes. They are gamers who are playing a game. Not sports, but a video game. Nothing wrong with it though. But you cannot really demand sportsmanship in an environment where most people have an entirely different concept of what it even means.
One might say that some players only have very rudimentary understanding of what fair play means. But from whos perspective? And can you really blame people? I mean, how could they know? They are gamers ffs and not athletes. Other people might have a completly different upbringing than you. Pity them, move on. In a sense, sportmanship in an unregulated game gives you a disadvantage. I don't mind loosing though, I'll stick to my ethics. And to be hated for that by some pale overweight person on the other side of the world, why the f+++ would I care.
STO PVP doesn't even meet the conditions for E-Sports. But I still love it.
Have fun kill bad guys.
I like Sun Tzu though. He is boss.
For me it was competitive Paintball. I've played in tournaments in Canada, Pennsylvania U.S. as well as with the Military Academy's Black Knights team at WP vs the Naval Academy Cadets. These guys are competitive. There was fair play. This may seem counter intuitive, but when everyone had a paintball gun, there was very rarely even any harsh language. No really.
Online its a different world entirely. So I entirely see your point here. A while back someone posted a link to a video where a "Pro Gamer" basically said what you did. If you don't cheat your not trying hard enough. And the implication was that deceit wasn't deceit. It was "trying harder" and "being creative". No. Other people see it as well. Other people have figured it out. They just don't do it. It's a recreational sport. Not an actual fight to preserve humanity against zombie invaders from the Republican National Convention.
Whoops! How'd that get in there?
So there's really no call for the "anything goes" mentality.
Anyways cheers and happy flying.
I have nothing against Clausewitz, but there is a reason people revere Sun Tzu.
Clausewitz: 1780 - 1831 CE (AD)
Sun Tsu: 544 BCE - 496 BCE
Sometimes there is something to be said for being "first", or near enough to it.