DHCs vs. DCs

torsten1009 · July 2013

Hi,

I created a little spreadsheet to optimize the front-weapon layout of ships. The reason is, that I wanted to see the effects of DHCs (higher powerdrain, but +10% CrtD) compared to DCs (lower powerdrain, twice the rate of fire, but no critical boosts).

The results may be a little surprising, in most cases after the first DHC the superior critical stats aren't worth as much as the higher rate of fire of a DC.

I created the spreadsheet in LibreOffice (OpenOffice) and made an export to Excel, so there are two versions:
OpenOffice-Version
Excel-Export

There are still some limitations, I don't handle "too much power" to energy-weapons (powerlevel above 125). But the first results (of an older version) look good, somebody made a test run on Starbase 234 and increased his DPS from 4300 to 4600 (just good luck or the optimization is unknown).

Please leave your feedback and show me everything, where I failed in math...

EDIT: Exported to Google-DOCs (only read-permissions):
Google-DOCs

EDIT2: I received a few reports of corrupted files, in A34 is a function, not a static value. It seems to be a translation-problem of the german word "Summe" (english Sum). The function in A34 is
"=SUM(B24:F25)+SUM(B30:F31)"

aarons9 · July 2013

i think its been tested over and over and over and DHCs win every time.
they have the +10% crtD but also the power drain, even tho its rated more, its actually less cause the DCs have 2 shots per 1 shot of the DHC.

torsten1009 · July 2013

aarons9 wrote: »

i think its been tested over and over and over and DHCs win every time.
they have the +10% crtD but also the power drain, even tho its rated more, its actually less cause the DCs have 2 shots per 1 shot of the DHC.

Well, I didn't start the usual discussion, I asked for feedback on the spreadsheet.

If you fail on reading the first post and don't even look at the links, what is your feedback/answere/reply based on? Let me guess, you saw the title of the Thread and posted the usual stupid 2 lines you allways post on these Threads.

aarons9 · July 2013

i cant even open an ODS file.. so maybe make it in google docs?

but this subject has been talked over many many many times and it comes down to DHC always winning.

they should widen the arc of DCs to 60deg or so to make them more useful.

torsten1009 · July 2013

aarons9 wrote: »

i cant even open an ODS file.. so maybe make it in google docs?

I used free software to create the document, you can download OpenOffice/LibreOffice for free, you can also get the free Excel-Viewer from Microsoft, so it's up to you.

I personally hate those large online-applications with long loading-times and causing a lot of useless traffic.

aarons9 wrote: »

but this subject has been talked over many many many times and it comes down to DHC always winning.

they should widen the arc of DCs to 60deg or so to make them more useful.

And you are whining again, because you are unable to see the use. I don't want to comment this further, it's just something like background-noise.

adamkafei · July 2013

I had a look at the sheet and it looks to me like a work in progress. For one you are missing the "Starship weapons proficiency" and "Starship energy weapons" skills on the sheet and a whole lot of other percentage stats that make STO weapons mechanics horrible to reverse engineer.

I would also lay out two tables that work from one set of weapon and character mods set by the user adding in any stats on the weapons themselves to show the two layouts side by side.

On a final note, you may want to drop by the pvp subsection and ask for the weapon damage calculations.

torsten1009 · July 2013

adamkafei wrote: »

I had a look at the sheet and it looks to me like a work in progress. For one you are missing the "Starship weapons proficiency" and "Starship energy weapons" skills on the sheet and a whole lot of other percentage stats that make STO weapons mechanics horrible to reverse engineer.

I would also lay out two tables that work from one set of weapon and character mods set by the user adding in any stats on the weapons themselves to show the two layouts side by side.

On a final note, you may want to drop by the pvp subsection and ask for the weapon damage calculations.

Thanks for the first real feedback in this Thread...

Well, there are "Energy-Weapon-Specialization" (adds to critical stats, is in the sheet) and "Starship Energy Weapon" (increases the Base-Damage, just like Mk V have another Base-Damage then Mk XII), this is not in the sheet and is not necessary, because I only compared those types of dual-cannons.

I can't include everything, "Starship Targeting System" increases the accuracy for all your weapons, but it's different applied in PvE (low defense values) and PvP (high defense values).

adamkafei · July 2013

torsten1009 wrote: »

Well, there are "Energy-Weapon-Specialization" (adds to critical stats, is in the sheet) and "Starship Energy Weapon" (increases the Base-Damage, just like Mk V have another Base-Damage then Mk XII), this is not in the sheet and is not necessary, because I only compared those types of dual-cannons.

I can't include everything, "Starship Targeting System" increases the accuracy for all your weapons, but it's different applied in PvE (low defense values) and PvP (high defense values).

While not everything is needed (See targeting systems) everything that affects the damage level of a weapon should be accounted for, I have done a similar spreadsheet that can be found here, I do need to work a few small errors out of it but it should be helpful to you regardless.

Notes:
Turrets don't work properly
Torps don't exist yet
DCs need base figures but should work if they are inserted

hasukurobi · July 2013

There are two other hidden problems that will monkey wrench what you are trying to do here.

1) There are a lot of ways to boost up your Critical Chance and if you can really pump it up high that extra CTD, especially with Antiprotons, can become a lot more important than it is just on a standard level.

2) When talking PvP (at least) and sometimes PvE sustained DPS is not important. Spike Damage is what generally makes the kill. This means that DC's with possibly higher Sustained DPS (if what you have here is correct) is good but not as important as the higher Spike that a higher base damage and the CTD from the DHC's can produce.

I really wanted to point out 2 there because thanks to being able to keep them on target so easy Single Cannons and Turrets can actually have VERY high Sustained DPS but they fall down on Spike DPS.

foorged · July 2013

adamkafei wrote: »

spreadsheet that can be found here, I do need to work a few small errors out of it but it should be helpful to you regardless.

Your file isnt opening with Chrome or Mozilla

voporak · July 2013

OP... this topic has come up before, multiple times. Each time DHCs always came out on top. I don't want to sound rude, I just wanted to point that out.

adamkafei · July 2013

foorged wrote: »

Your file isnt opening with Chrome or Mozilla

I changed the link, you'll have to download the file but it should open in open office

torsten1009 · July 2013

voporak wrote: »

OP... this topic has come up before, multiple times. Each time DHCs always came out on top. I don't want to sound rude, I just wanted to point that out.

I wonder, did you read the first post, did you take a look at the spreadsheet?

havokreign · July 2013

I didn't check your work, I'm with the guy on the "use google docs" remark. If you want people to dig into it you should make it as readily accessible as possible.

as others have said, this has been worked out before, and you're requiring people to possibly go out of their way to install third party software (hurdle, disincentive).

don't let them dissuade you though, there's a lot to be gained in breaking down the numbers, from personal delight to reinforcing some core arithmetic. It's win win baby

voporak · July 2013

torsten1009 wrote: »

I wonder, did you read the first post, did you take a look at the spreadsheet?

I did. And the spreadsheet won't open on my computer. I'm just pointing out that DHC vs DC has been worked out before.

torsten1009 · July 2013

havokreign wrote: »

I didn't check your work, I'm with the guy on the "use google docs" remark. If you want people to dig into it you should make it as readily accessible as possible.

as others have said, this has been worked out before, and you're requiring people to possibly go out of their way to install third party software (hurdle, disincentive).

don't let them dissuade you though, there's a lot to be gained in breaking down the numbers, from personal delight to reinforcing some core arithmetic. It's win win baby

Ok, now there is a Google-Docs-Version... Are you happy now?

Look at the numbers, look at my math and make comments based on that, not based on other discussions.

warmaker001b · July 2013

Something I want to throw into the fire, something from last year.

Personally, I am of this frame of mind in the DC vs DHC dealio:

If you intend to use something heavier than single cannons for close range work, DHCs all the way, everyday, any day of the week. One simply has to look at the damage per attack of the weapons. Ignore the DPS. What you simply see is that DHCs have:
1. Inherent CritD% trait that you did not have to go out of the way to acquire. It CAME with the DHC.

2. Of all energy weapon types, DHCs have by far the highest damage per attack.

Now, combine that with some combination of Emergency Power to Weapons, Weapon Battery, and whatever mix of TAC Buffs, then DHCs are supreme at close ranges. This already high base damage that is super-buffed up is what shreds shields and ships apart in very short time. Buffed DHCs with Cannon Rapid Fire are only equaled by Dual Beam Banks with Beam Overload 3. These high damage attacks in very short time spans (or in the case of BO3, instantaneous), are what makes high Spike Damage possible, to be followed up with maybe even a Quantum Torp volley for finishing the target off. And as someone mentioned earlier, Spike Damage is king in PVP. Spike Damage is king in PVE when something needs to be destroyed now. Not in 2 minutes, not in 1 minute, and not 30 seconds. Now. Sustained damage does not do this.

Power Drain from cannon fire in today's STO is nothing at all like when the game first released. Back then, energy drain after any energy weapons are fired was gradually replaced. Today? It is essentially, almost instantaneously replaced. This greatly negated the usage of other weapon types.

Back in the day, DHCs were still very nasty and ideal for the alpha strike, but their weapon drain was monstrous when one had CRF / CSV going. Lower power consumption weapons were quite viable for weapons that didn't hit as hard but didn't strip you of all your power to very slowly try to regain it. Since weapon power drain is no longer an issue now with STO, go DHCs. The only thing that drains alot is a Beamboat with too many arrays, or a Beam Overload attack. Even then, there are temporary workarounds to that drain.

matrix0 · July 2013

Here the difference between dhc n dc. DHC hit hard because all in 1 shot dmg. However, if the shot misses, all dmg is lost. DHC works well with large targets such as cubes/gates. DC divides the damage into more shots, so the chance of completely wasting dmg is less, and also it work better with small targets. Also, there are more chance to hit the target when its shield is down due to faster firing rate. Most of the dmg calculations between dhc n dc are done in STFs which favor DHC over DC because of large and unshielded targets.

I always switch 1 dhc out for dc when doing azura pug or tholian patrols/red alert because of the small targets.

torsten1009 · August 2013

Ok, the only thing my spreadsheet currently can't handle is weapon-powerlevels that exceed 125 - usually with Emergencypower to weapons, Plasmonic Leech, Aux2Bat, Batteries,...

In this particular case, you can shoot DHCs without a drop to your weapons' powerlevel, so you don't get an advantage from using DCs instead of DHCs.
I will try to resolve this in the next few days.

corvalle · August 2013

Use all the spreadsheets you want, DHC's win every time :P

aarons9 · August 2013

yeah they really should widen the DCs arc a tad.. i wouldnt make it 90, maybe 60.

they are useless and so many people dont know not to use them.. cause they are cheap.

DHCs vs. DCs

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