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Energy vs. Kinetic Weapons
johnnyquantum
Member Posts: 6 Arc User
I read numerous times that kinetic weapons do little shield damage and lots of hull damage, and the energy weapons do damage to both shield and hull. Can someone quantify this a bit?
Post edited by johnnyquantum on
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Here comes a mix of very little direct knowledge/testing, some real numbers, some speculative/hypothetical numbers, and some he said/she said...
First, some he said/she said...there's 75% kinetic shield damage reduction inherent to shields. Probably easy to test, but it's nothing I've ever tested. Enough folks have said, I'll go with it.
Second, some real numbers...based on a toon wth 9 Weapon Training, 9 Energy Weapons, 9 Projectile Weapons, Omega Weapon Training, and no Tac Consoles or other damage boosting gear. @125 Weapon Power.
Common Photon Torpedo Launcher Mk X 4273.4 DPV - 657.4 DPS - 1/6.5 cycle
Common Phaser Beam Array Mk X 790 DPV - 632 DPS - 4/5 cycle
Common Phaser Dual Heavy Cannons Mk X 1374.6 DPV - 916.4 DPS - 2/3 cycle
Third, some speculative/hypothetical numbers...where do the cycles for those three meet up? They don't. So we can't use the DPS numbers. We can still use the DPV numbers though.
Going with 15 seconds, we'll see the following (the Array and DHCs meet at 15s):
Common Photon Torpedo Launcher Mk X 3 shots - 12820.2 damage
Common Phaser Beam Array Mk X 12 shots - 9480 damage
Common Phaser Dual Heavy Cannons Mk X 10 shots - 13746 damage
Fourth, okay then - we're going to look at shields. These shields will just have the 75% Kinetic Damage Reduction and 35% Energy Damage Reduction (125 Shield Power). There will be the standard 10% bleedthrough. These shields have infinite capacity - we don't want them going down, have to figure in healing, etc, etc - speculative/hypothetical numbers!
Common Photon Torpedo Launcher Mk X
Base Damage: 12820.2
-Bleedthrough: 11538.2
vs 75%: 2884.6
Common Phaser Beam Array Mk X
Base Damage: 9480
-Bleedthrough: 8532
vs 35%: 5545.8
Common Phaser Dual Heavy Cannons Mk X
Base Damage: 13746
-Bleedthrough: 12371.4
vs 35%: 8041.4
Even the Array which did less base damage, did more damage against the shields because of the difference in shield damage reduction.
Fifth, let's take a look at the hull hit then - we'll run a guy with no skills and a pair of Rare Neut Mk XI's giving him 25.7% damage resistance.
Common Photon Torpedo Launcher Mk X
Base Damage: 12820.2
vs 25.7%: 9525.4
Common Phaser Beam Array Mk X
Base Damage: 9480
vs 25.7%: 7043.6
Common Phaser Dual Heavy Cannons Mk X
Base Damage: 13746
vs 25.7%: 10213.3
And the Photon does more than the Array again...woot! But it's not that simple, really. Cause that pesky DHC is doing more damage than the Torp.
Which goes back to the cycles...ugh, more? Yep, let's roll through based on the cycle of the Torp...a 6.5s period.
vs. Shield...
Common Photon Torpedo Launcher Mk X
Base Damage: 4273.4 (one shot - one torp)
-Bleedthrough: 3846.1
vs 75%: 961.5
Common Phaser Beam Array Mk X
Base Damage: 3950 (five shots)
-Bleedthrough: 3555
vs 35%: 2310.8
Common Phaser Dual Heavy Cannons Mk X
Base Damage: 5498.4 (four shots)
-Bleedthrough: 4948.6
vs 35%: 3216.6
vs. Hull...
Common Photon Torpedo Launcher Mk X
Base Damage: 4273.4 (one shot - one torp)
vs 25.7%: 3175.1
Common Phaser Beam Array Mk X
Base Damage: 3950 (five shots)
vs 25.7%: 2934.9
Common Phaser Dual Heavy Cannons Mk X
Base Damage: 5498.4 (four shots)
vs 25.7%: 4085.3
Hrmmm, that didn't help any - did it? Weapon drain! Er...maybe? I'm not going to calculate it.
Okay, okay - how about just one shot?
vs. Shield...
Common Photon Torpedo Launcher Mk X
Base Damage: 4273.4
-Bleedthrough: 3846.1
vs 75%: 961.5
Common Phaser Beam Array Mk X
Base Damage: 790
-Bleedthrough: 711
vs 35%: 462.2
Common Phaser Dual Heavy Cannons Mk X
Base Damage: 1374.6
-Bleedthrough: 1237.1
vs 35%: 804.1
vs. Hull...
Common Photon Torpedo Launcher Mk X
Base Damage: 4273.4
vs 25.7%: 3175.1
Common Phaser Beam Array Mk X
Base Damage: 790
vs 25.7%: 587.0
Common Phaser Dual Heavy Cannons Mk X
Base Damage: 1374.6
vs 25.7%: 1021.3
Um, yay? If you've only got one shot on the target...1s on the target! Torps rule! Beyond that... /facepalm, eh? I'll get to that in a moment, but first...
Sixth, it has been reported (I can neither confirm nor deny, I just haven't looked) - that the way it works creates an additional issue.
5000 damage torp hits 100 remaining shields.
5000 * 0.9 = 4500 damage after bleedthrough.
4500 * 0.25 = 1125 damage after shield damage reduction.
1125 - 100 (remaining shields) = 1025 damage done to the hull.
But wait, if there was only 100 shield remaining - why is it resisting damage that it's not there to resist? Tada..the other issue that has been reported.
Seventh, okay - I said I was going to get to something positive: Critical Damage.
Let's look at that single shot again - where the shot is a critical with the base +50% critical severity.
Common Photon Torpedo Launcher Mk X
Base Damage: 6410.1
-Bleedthrough: 5769.1
vs 75%: 1442.3
Common Phaser Beam Array Mk X
Base Damage: 1185
-Bleedthrough: 1066.5
vs 35%: 693.2
Common Phaser Dual Heavy Cannons Mk X
Base Damage: 2061.9
-Bleedthrough: 1855.7
vs 35%: 1206.2
vs. Hull...
Common Photon Torpedo Launcher Mk X
Base Damage: 6410.1
vs 25.7%: 4762.7
Common Phaser Beam Array Mk X
Base Damage: 1185
vs 25.7%: 880.5
Common Phaser Dual Heavy Cannons Mk X
Base Damage: 2061.9
vs 25.7%: 1532
So you see the spike potential there of the torp against the hull?
Let's say it was somebody using a [CrtD]x3 torp w/ 9 Projectile Specialization for +60% and +25.01% vs. [CrtD]x3 DHC w/ 9 Energy Weapon Specialization for +10%, +60%, and +25.01%...
135.01 severity vs. 145.01 severity...235.01% damage vs. 245.01% damage...
Common Photon Torpedo Launcher Mk X
Base Damage: 10042.9
vs 25.7%: 7461.9
Common Phaser Dual Heavy Cannons Mk X
Base Damage: 3367.9
vs 25.7%: 2502.4
And that's just Mk X vs. Mk X, no Tac Consoles, no abilities/buffs/debuffs...etc, etc, etc.
So that's the Torp vs. Hull, Energy vs. Shields thing...potential critical spike.
...but I heard somebody say a BO DBB could do more vs. Hull? Er, I've heard that as well; but I've definitely never looked at that...and...that's another discussion, eh?
The reason I recommend this attitude is that given the slow travel time of torpedoes, and the fluidity of ship maneuver, it's very hard to reliably predict on which shield your torpedo will be hitting, and I'm also of the opinion that the sooner you fire your torps, the sooner they can come off cooldown and fire again.
Somebody asking for more info has taken a step toward learning more about the game - shouldn't we encourage that rather than discourage it?
No type of ship, no career, nothing was mentioned by the OP. A recommendation for what to include on a ship might want to consider the ship, etc, etc, etc.
To put it at its most basic though (ignore cycles etc.):
For shields, given the 75%/35% reduction, energy weapons do about twice as much damage as kinetic ones.
For hull, you are using 25.7% for both, so energy weapons do the same amount of damage as kinetic? I thought kinetic did more damage to hull than energy?
The 35% for energy was just a base, looking only at 125 Shield Power. If it's lower, there will be less shield damage reduction. There are also various abilities that provide additional shield damage reduction as shields that provide shield damage reduction. The 75% for kinetic though - it's there regardless.
It's possible to buff up to 75% for energy as well - but the 75% for kinetic is "free" - it's just there.
For the hull, I just gave them a resist based on that particular gearing. The guy I'm on right now, has 24.6% Kinetic and 27% Energy before any buffs (AtS, APO, PH, HE, BFI). That too is going to vary.
Projectile will show a DPS value just like Energy does. The DPS tends to be a somewhat smaller number, because the "recharge" before the projectile fires again (whether torps or mines).
The damage for a single shot (or a group of mines, etc) - will be higher than a single energy shot. But there's that period of time until you can use it again, where things like DHCs can often produce as much DPS or more - even against the hull.
Projectile though...because of the higher damage, benefits more from things like critical severity.
Very rough example:
1000 Damage
5000 Damage
+50% Critical Severity
1500 Damage
7500 Damage
That second one actually got a bonus alone larger than the first one with the bonus.
Something else to keep in mind are the various types of projectiles - Plasma does kinetic like Photon or Quantum (different amount of damage, but kinetic) as well as applying a DoT. Chrons slow, Trics "stun", Trans have increased bleedthrough but less damage (better for shielded targets, but worse for unshielded targets).
Recent discussions, discussions from a couple of years, and going back to the dawn of time - that I've come across, have all stated the 75% (which is the shield damage reduction cap).
The first step in determining the damage though, is the 0.9 - because you're determining the bleedthrough. 10% of the damage is "lost" to bleedthrough (even with resilient shields where 5% bleeds, 5% is absorbed, that's still 10%).
BO gives a massive damage modifier (BO1 +600%, BO2 +725%, BO3 +850% damage according to stowiki) that basically brings any beam weapon up to torpedo-level damage. Without the issue of the shield resistance, plus it gains the benefit of power levels to it's damage. But yes that's another discussion but it can be easily mathed out.
That's because kinetic simply does more base damage as Virus has said and posted numbers for. Compare the DPVs (damage per volley) of each in his post: torpedoes far and away do the most damage there.
Example case using these hypothetical numbers:
Torpedo: 1000 DPV, 1 shot.
Beam Array: 100 DPV 5 shots.
Hull Resist: 25%
Torpedo: 1000 * (1-.25) = 750 * 1 = 750 total damage.
Beam: 100 * (1-.25) = 75 * 5 = 375 total damage.
Kinetic base damage per volley is the highest in the game to balance out the 75% kinetic resist in shields.
I would if Cryptic would actually post authoritative information on how the game mechanics actually work, however I've seen a great deal of misinformation and conflicting opinions as to the effects of shields on kinetic weaponry, such as how/whether the shield resistance from energy level or emergency power stacks with the 75% resistance. Also, my point is less about suppressing your desire to understand mechanics than to point out that the resistance formulae shouldn't really have a great effect on how you use torpedoes in practice. Keep your torp on cooldown and you won't go far wrong.
I suppose if you're determined to run a 8x broadside beam boat, you might not bother with a torpedo at all, however it's been my experience that having a torpedo is better than not having one in every build I've tried. But I'm admittedly a great fan of Projectile Weapon Officers.
Simple version: Kinetic damage to shields does 25% damage. 75% of the damage is lost.
Don't forget to account for the difference between Energy and Kinetic vs. Resilient shields.
w/Energy, 5% is absorbed into the ether and magically disappears.
w/Kinetic, 5% is absorbed by the shields.
Res shields take 0.9 of the damage from Energy.
Res shields take 0.95 of the damage from Kinetic.
But yes, then that Kinetic turns around to do 0.25 because of the innate 75% Kinetic resist.
Fun stuff with Cryptic mathssssss..../sigh.