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Ship Damage model is strange
skanvak
Member Posts: 16 Arc User
I wonder if I am the only on to find that receiving "Damage" after respawning is strange. I mean the system though a bit strange on ground can have explanation : when you get KO it is because you receive a sever injuries, so when a team mate heal you you still have it. It makes a little sense but still some.
But for space ship you are always fine then you blow up to pieces and come back ina ship... with damage from the previous combat...err...this time that does not make sense at all.
I see another problem in the ship combat model : the healing rate of hull. The shield system is a very good depiction of how the shield works in Star Trek. Not bad. But the hull integrity should not work the same at all!
Either you have shield up and well, the system is correct as only minor damage are done to the ship itself as the damage does not impact the ship directly. But when you see in the movies a torpedo that hit a ship without shield (or even phaser) the impact does damage that are way beyond repair.
As we see in the movie that badly damaged ship (crippled) does not explose immediatly and stay alive quite a long time if they are pound to death I think we can improve the system to be more Star Trek like and therefore more immersive :
_ any impact without shield will cause a damage (minor, major or critical).
_ when the ship integrity is reduce to 0% the ship is crippled (it take another mandatory damage). The ship cannot move or fire. It can only repair itself slowly (at least 60 s to begin normal ship hit point regeneration). Though it can be repair a bit quicker by other ship (like a ground raise).
_ if the ship take let say another 10% of its hit point (may increase with the slow repair) before being out of crippled state it explosed. Alternatively, the ennemy ship has to make a death pass (like a fatality) to finish off the ship.
_ if the ship really exploded I would say that it depend of the need to respawn : in pvp, the ship respawn with no damage; in pve I would say no respawn (if alone respawn at the nearest starbase with no damage) if with team mate, the character will be assummed to have escape on another ship so it will be able to watch and eventually beam down with the team.
If you really want dying to be a gold sink at high level, make an EC cost to commission a new ship.
I really think it will improve the game as it is.
But for space ship you are always fine then you blow up to pieces and come back ina ship... with damage from the previous combat...err...this time that does not make sense at all.
I see another problem in the ship combat model : the healing rate of hull. The shield system is a very good depiction of how the shield works in Star Trek. Not bad. But the hull integrity should not work the same at all!
Either you have shield up and well, the system is correct as only minor damage are done to the ship itself as the damage does not impact the ship directly. But when you see in the movies a torpedo that hit a ship without shield (or even phaser) the impact does damage that are way beyond repair.
As we see in the movie that badly damaged ship (crippled) does not explose immediatly and stay alive quite a long time if they are pound to death I think we can improve the system to be more Star Trek like and therefore more immersive :
_ any impact without shield will cause a damage (minor, major or critical).
_ when the ship integrity is reduce to 0% the ship is crippled (it take another mandatory damage). The ship cannot move or fire. It can only repair itself slowly (at least 60 s to begin normal ship hit point regeneration). Though it can be repair a bit quicker by other ship (like a ground raise).
_ if the ship take let say another 10% of its hit point (may increase with the slow repair) before being out of crippled state it explosed. Alternatively, the ennemy ship has to make a death pass (like a fatality) to finish off the ship.
_ if the ship really exploded I would say that it depend of the need to respawn : in pvp, the ship respawn with no damage; in pve I would say no respawn (if alone respawn at the nearest starbase with no damage) if with team mate, the character will be assummed to have escape on another ship so it will be able to watch and eventually beam down with the team.
If you really want dying to be a gold sink at high level, make an EC cost to commission a new ship.
I really think it will improve the game as it is.
Post edited by skanvak on
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Comments
Great idea! lets make pug estf's impossible to complete rather than just annoying. /sarcasm Sorry but the ideas are really bad ideas.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
I actually like the idea of a PROPER death penalty. Injuries are fine and all, but I do think we should have a proper death penalty. This isn't the one I'd pick, but it opens the door for a discussion/
Kirk's Protege.
If they add in a death penalty then they need to remove the invisible 1 hit kills NPC's can do, nothing like being at full health with no agro and then the NPC does agro you and kills you with 1 shot that you dont see coming. being penalised for something that shouldnt be possible would be wrong.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
The only time this happens is in Hive Elite (lances are bugged)
Anyone who gets "one shotted from an invisible torp" in any other STF or piece of PvE is lying or has a terribly squishy setup.
Kirk's Protege.
The gateways are the most notorious for this invisitorp [doing 40k+ dmg on crits +plasma burn] Heck even I have invisitorped enemies on 20 player ques because the graphics and/or game can't keep up with all the action.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
40k+ damage isn't enough to one-shot someone if they have shield facings up. Tanking the gate is pretty easy with a dedicated tank, hell, I can tank it for about 90 seconds in my escort. These are not "invisible one shots" that everyone constantly moans about. For the most part the "invisible one shots" are regular run-of-the-mill small green plasma torpedos that crit for 80k+ when you have a gap in your shield facings. I see it time and time again and people say "wth man I got one shot by something invisible".
Kirk's Protege.
Yes you are correct on them being small green plasma torpedo's, but do to graphical issues with this game they can at times appear invisible on someone's screen. And as for the 40k+ it is a base for being able to do 40k-80k easy, and yes even thru shields as you still face the plasma fire which seems to have the possibility of a crit for the borg. Either that or the torp does over 100k+ hence knocking out a full shield and applying the left over damage to your now exposed hull.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
I've had it happen to me in Infected Space Elite a couple days ago. I'm engineer running an eng oddy. Believe me, I was at almost full health (mid- to upper-nineties), with nearly full shields (same as hull, almost completely full; I would be lying if I said it was completely full). The Tactical Cube was not draining my shields, and I didn't see any torps (heavy or otherwise) headed my way. I could be wrong on the torps, though, because my camera angle covered up the majority of the center of the cube. I looked at the combat log, too. It had just slightly less that the hull of my ship damage. The plasma burn took care of the rest before I realized what happened. Regardless, nothing should be able to take an Engineer running an Odyssey Operations with Engineering Team III/II and Miracle Worker (with Grace under Fire) ready to go in one shot.
But more to the point, we do need an re-do.
And for the Odyssey Escort Aquarius ~visual~ Escort Bug A.K.A. Inflatable escort to be fixed :mad:
I hope STO get's better ...
What I am not is that the Damage are done after you explode! My proposal is to make the damage done before you explode.
So let's put back this thread on the proposal not this one shot think or the death penality that I don't really care anyway.
Skanvak Drakken
http://lamaisondesdrakkens.clan-box.com/index.php
Incorrect, as my Fleet Excelsior got quite a high rating for "tankiness", by a very experienced PvP'er, and I've gotten one-shotted a few times by the "Gozer torps of doom", that you can't even see. Just because it hasn't happened to you, doesn't mean hundreds, if not thousands of others haven't had it to them.
And while the OP suggestions may not be quite "workable", I personally think that he is on to something.
My suggestions: 1>Make respawns in STF's actually have a longer delay. Make that valiant charge into stupidity actually penalize that player, by keeping him out of it. Also, any loot drops generated while waiting, you cannot roll for, as you aren't actually involved, at that time.
2>Mission deaths (as in solo player type stuff)- Make you have to either abort, or restart from scratch. Make it where just constantly spamming your spawns just can't happen, fairly stupid way to get through (try that in any single-player game, it ain't happening, have to start back from your last save).
3> Make injuries not only consume "parts", but also time. As in, while repairing, that ship cannot be used by the character. Granted, an easy way to get around that, would be, just play another character. (And time on the ground, or not logged in, still counts, just like for doff missions). It would make it more strategic, in that, you either would have to have multiple copies of the same ship, to be able to run the same ship type as normal, while another is repairing, pick another ship to run, or play another character entirely.
4>Injuries, in particular ship damage, not be a part of "death", but make them as part of a critical hit system, such as traditional RPG's tend to have. A ship explosion should result in a lengthy downtime, while your ship is being rebuilt. (Such as a minimum of 1-day, mayb e even up to 1 week)
5> Along with 4, totally revamp the whole crew damage thing, and make it where crew deaths have to be organically replaced. This is where your "older" ships, could come in, since you still have them crewed even while their moth-balled, those crews could help replace dead crew on your current ship. But you only get to replace dead crew at a certain rate, with maybe doff missions to increase basic crew recruitment. (Maybe a crew replacement factor of something like 20*your current rank*number of ships currently owned/week)
That's about all I have for now, but I'm sure I could come up with more ideas if I sat down, and actually thought on the subject for a while.
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
count me in with the "if you lose your shields there's a very good chance an elite tac cube can crit you for 43,000+ damage". with regular torpedo or plasma fire no less. this is very real, and instant dead if you don't keep your facing shields up.
As for repairs, I think injuries for both your persons and your ship are sopposed to cost EC. they just don't for some reason or another.
Exactly. I can guarantee you that 90%+ of the people that were "one shotted from invisitorps" were just hit with a plasma torp from a cube.
It not only hasn't happened to me, but it hasn't happened to anyone I've run with since I stopped running in public queues and with the ESTF lot.
You got hit by a plasma torpedo, deal with it.
Kirk's Protege.
earlnyghthawk, yes, we are totally on the same line. It is especially point 4 that is important for me. Point 2 is something that bother me and you option is a good midle ground.
For point 5, I think the crew replacement might come from crew that are not on duty though that is not what is depicted. After, this time you might be a bit hard on crew replacement. Though I agree dead should not be replaced in combat but when you go to starbase or may be as a duty officer mission. That should be enough to make crew dying realist.
After, I might have a better for the respawn thing : instead to go to the nearest starbase or get you ship brand new or strangly damaged, why not got to spawn with one of your other ship? The mission will be either aborted (earlnyghthawk proposal) or my controversial proposal) only when you get no more ship to spawn. This will mitigate the problem and make all the ship we have in drydock usefull!
As for people who want a real death penalty : destroyed ship should be payed to have a new one (though at something not too expensive). You can still continue to play with one of your other ship but you need to go back to a starbase to get your destroyed ship. I think that middle ground can make everyone happy and immersed in the game.
Skanvak Drakken
http://lamaisondesdrakkens.clan-box.com/index.php
my suggestion...getting hit already can trigger an injury, makeing it therefore an integral part of the game to repair your ship and visit the sickbay from time to time. After all the interior has not much use anyway.
any sort of injury can't be cured during a mission...only before and after in the engi section or sickbay of your ship or starbase.
you can't join an event (private, public queue) with a critical injury
PVP would not be affected.
also there should be additions to " visit bridge", like "visit engineering" and "visit sickbay"
So what you are saying because you havent seen it it doesnt exist? THAT is an award winning statement!
And where do you think these things are happening? ESTF! If i am rolling in a ship with full near 60K worth of hit points of hull, getting nailed for 96K but what seems to be nothing shouldnt happen.
is your next argument that the borg beamed a massive torpedoe onto my shipwhile the shields were down?
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Then you may as well quit playing STO because none of these wishes will happen, the majority of players are casual players and PWE/Cryptic does not want to turn them away and have a small subset of elitist TRIBBLE players. Small groups do not pay the bill the coffee machine makes much less development.
What might happen is the crew loss and injuries might actualy affect ship performance as it is supposed to but we all know how fast Cryptic fixes bugs unless the bug is exploitable.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
People let's be innovative and optimistically realtist.
Skanvak Drakken
http://lamaisondesdrakkens.clan-box.com/index.php
I
DO
NOT
WANT
TO
JOIN
EVE!
Got it? :P
Anyway:
Yeah the damage model needs a MASSIVE IMPROVEMENT.
I think ANY weapon that hits the hull, one would receive an injury, eventually resulting in a system not functioning.
Then when you respawn , you lose all your injuries. Perhaps.
Look on my Sig for more details for the damage system that SHOULD be included!
I hope STO get's better ...
I have post in your thread by the way.
Skanvak Drakken
http://lamaisondesdrakkens.clan-box.com/index.php
I like the idea of respawning with your other ships actually, it will really drive home the a need to keep all of your ships well equipped. One should have control of what order that the ships come out with. It would also lead to interesting scenarios where people try and beat an ESTF in their tier 1 ship, and then when that ship gets destroyed, BOOM they warp in with their Tier 5 ship next.
As far as crew, as a Captain I can't STAND the idea of my crew dying and replacing them all willy nilly. A mission or a DOFF assignment to deliver the dead crew to their families could be compelling though.
But I look at the idea of battle stations.
IRL, On my ship when we went to battle stations, everyone went to our specific areas of the ship. Now during battle stations drills if your part of the ship was hit, then it would be evacuated some people declared injured others dead, and people sent back in to fight the fires.
I don't think crew should die (not like it does in this game) but you should instead lose habitable volume and thus access to portions of the ship. And when your next ship warps in, it should fly in with a skeleton crew, and recovering the escape pods of the previous ship should be important. Having an F button prompt pop up just before a ship explodes. If you hit it in time, you get an abandon ship and you recover more crew with the next ship. (a short shuttle mission to tractor your ship's wreck back to a Starbase would be interesting too, though some people may get annoyed after a while).
If you look at some of the graphics in the shows and movies they have diagrams of the ship by section and by deck and when they're hit they glow red. That should show up on the ship U/I.
It may be complex on the whole to calculate where on your ship you've been hit, but it would make sense. If you take a hit to your deflector dish then your sensors would lose effectiveness; making it a priority target for Romulan and Klingon ships if their play style is to be in an out of cloak. A hit to the deflector dish could weaken the Heavy Graviton Beam (though that would be redundant for all the strength it has, you wouldn't notice), or it would weaken science abilities like Tyken's Rift and Gravity Well that fire from the Deflector.
Making the areas inaccessible increases the time that it would take for them to heal over time and come back to full power. You should also be able to upgrade equipment for your crew, for example plasma fire resistant EVA suits. Maybe tied into the suits that you get from the Rep system for instance.
But by having your ship damaged and taking ship injuries, you start losing systems over time. For a cruiser losing the deflector isn't a big drawback, taking damage to the shield grid shouldn't be a game ender either though. Losing weapons....sitting duck. Take out an escorts engines and they're in deep trouble.
Which brings me to another point.
If you're gonna put in more logical or more severe ship injuries and permanent damage, you need to make the hulls of the ship a hell of a lot tougher. Throughout Star Trek against weapons of comparable technology level the ships themselves are solid. The ships in this game are ALL effectively tissue paper.
Wrath of Khan the Enterprise fought the entire movie with her shields down. Matter of fact so did Reliant.
In Undiscovered Country she was pounded into dog meat by Chang's Bird of Prey. Her shields went down and she didn't.
Generations, the Enterprise-D. Even though she took heavy ultimately fatal hits, they still had the chance to repair her after the battle was over i.e. she lived through the fight. The D-12 Bird of Prey by comparison got one shotted with a photon torpedo- Point, it was a fifty year old and thus technologically inferior ship. By comparison, Kruge's Bird of Prey took a photon torpedo to the face from the 1701 and stayed in tact. Why? Same technology level.
The Defiant, took unshielded hits constantly on DS9 and in First Contact. Dominion Phased Polaron weapons, the Lakota's upgraded phasers, a Borg Cube, the Breen had to strip it of all power (i.e. Structural Integrity Field) to destroy her.
Voyager, Year of Hell speaks for itself.
The point is these ships are TOUGH even without their shields. No meaningful damage system, or crew disabling system, will be workable as long as the ships themselves are so blasted fragile. A critical hit shouldn't boost damage so high that it vaporizes the ship, that's absurd (an 80,000 hp damage should be something caused by a Tricobalt explosion, but there's no reason any torpedo should do more damage). A critical hit should cause serious injury to the ship, disabling something that needs to be repaired by the crew. If you want to do a critical that will destroy the ship, then the hit would have to hit the Anti-matter containment, so on a Galaxy class it should be a result of focusing fire on the underside of the Stardrive section. A hard shot since the ship would always be moving perpendicular to someone targeting that.
That said you should have the option to abandon ship before it's destroyed and pick it up later. Depending on how badly damaged it is, it should have a refit time in a shipyard (a nice graphic seeing it be rebuilt). Having to pay for it seems like picking up your car from the repo man's impound lot, Starfleet is going to rebuild a salvageable ship. The time it takes to rebuild will depend on how much damage it took before you abandoned ship. If the ship was effectively destroyed then you get the max, like 24 hours. (None of that should apply to PvP of course).