Why is the Scimitar larger than in Nemesis, JamJamz?

toiva · July 2013

JamJamz, I take it you designed the Scimitar type ships (seems so from the first blog), so it's to you that I'm adressing this post.

While I wasn't sure before those Scimitars were released on Holodeck, as the couple pictures and videos leaked could be misleading, now, I can safely state: The Scimitars are way too large. Larger than they should be, larger than the original Scimitar was in Nemesis.

As you can see from this picture from Nemesis production (or this smaller one), the wingspan of the Scimitar is clearly smaller than 2 Mogai (Valdore, Norexan) type warbirds next to each other. The main body of the Scimitar should be about the lenght of a Sovereign.

In game though, the Scimitar is actually wider than 2 Mogai (Valdore/Norexan) type warbirds next to each other (a Valdore has about the size of one Scimitar wing, that with the Valdore closer to camera than the Scimitar wing). And the main body of the Scimitar is longer than a Sovereign (again, even with the Sovereign closer to the camera than the Scimitar).

How come that's the case? I could understand scaling down a very large ship (as the Jem dread is scaled down from about 1500 meters to 1200 meters) as well as I can understand scaling up some smaller ships (of course, I'm not happy with either). But why would you scale up an already massive vessel? I though you reduced the Dread size exactly because you didn't want too large ships in players hands, and now this?

I'm just clueless here. It's a very well done ship, nothing to be uset about there, but why making one of the largest ships available even larger...

reximuz · July 2013

Your image link won't load the image.

Sitting over a Scimitar in my Mogai right now, and my wing tip is lined up with its wing tip, and the other wingtip is past the middle of the main hull.

At best the variance in size from canon is a few percent, or barely noticeable.

toiva · July 2013

The link isn't directly to the image, rather to a page with the image, and works fine for me (what browser you use?).

Are you close enough to the Scimitar when seeing that you're larger than I report? Perspective might be toying with you.

I'll have to get some pictures for the case to be clear...

perfectself82 · July 2013

Image doesn't load.

Chrome and firefox both tested.

toiva · July 2013

No clue what's the problem with the pic, here's another version I found of it (though it's missing the roduction trade marks).

EDIT: And here another one: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schematics/nemesis-chart.jpg.

mewmaster101 · July 2013

the pic loads for me and i use chrome

as for the size issue, I am pretty sure it is at least nearly the canon size as when compared to a sovereign-class it looks about the same as it did in the movie

reximuz · July 2013

toiva wrote: »

Are you close enough to the Scimitar when seeing that you're larger than I report? Perspective might be toying with you.

It finally loaded, but I had seen that before.

Obviously matching up in game is imperfect, but I tried form below, above, and behind. And I fly a Valdore/Mogai mix, so my ship might not be the exact width, but I'd still say even if its a bit bigger, it's not massively bigger.

sander233 · July 2013

I don't think the problem is the Scamitar being too big, but rather the Mogai/Valdore being too small.

ursusmorologus · July 2013

I've looked at them from the outside and they actually seem alright, the main fuselage isnt very big and the wings dont seem to bulk up the ship too much. It is probably quite different while flying it. The D'D seems bulkier, and the Hapex/Hanom is much bulkier

dashuk2381 · July 2013

The majority of the Romulan ships are way too large as it is. The D'deridex is massive compared to what it looked like in TNG.

toiva · July 2013

Just a reminder, this is what I'm comparing to: http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20071010234610/memoryalpha/en/images/8/8f/Nemesis_comparison.jpg

So, firstly:
http://postimg.org/image/c7m4cfvcv/
The hull of the Scimitar being below the Odyssey is about the same lenght, so 1060 meters. That's already 15% longer than on the production image.
(I know, just a single picture, this could be deceiving. If I get to find a cooperative Scimitar with my oddy, I'll take other pictures.)

Then:
http://postimg.org/image/3vk2quh0r/
A Mogai below the Scimitar, notice it spans from (not even) the tip of Scimitar's wing to the furthermost side of main hull. That's already notably smaller than on the production picture where the Mogai spans from Scim's wingtip to the other wing's 'joint'.

And as following pictures (taken without the Mogai's or Scimitar's movement) show, the Mogai is a good deal closer to the 'camera' than the Scim, because of its collision box, meaning it appears bigger than it actually is (and it's already smaller relatively than it should be).
From in front: http://postimg.org/image/xdm93g6nb/, http://postimg.org/image/dx25b2xi9/
From both sides: http://postimg.org/image/6c0onynkt/, http://postimg.org/image/y3m4zh6kf/
And another from below, for good measure: http://postimg.org/image/6tud0o4xh/

I'd say the front pictures should be the most accurate as both ships are at the similar distance from the 'camera' and so there's the least perspective involved. And based on those, the Scimitar would be up to twice as large as the Mogai, at about 1 800 meters, being a whopping 33% wider than it should be.

Certainly, it's possible the Mogai is smaller in game than it should be, but I doubt it's that much smaller (given this thread, I think I'd notice such a large mistake in size). But the Odyssey is made in game to be 1060 meters long, as per the charts devs have been so kind to post on the forums.
I understand there must be some margin of error when creating ship models, but 15% (If Mogai's scaled correctly, up to 33%) seems a bit much, the more so as the ship in question is currently the biggest player controlled collision box in game.

EDIT: Added the production image to top.

voxius · July 2013

When I first read this I wanted my reply to read something like how silly it was that you felt the need to write up this huge post over something as simple as the ship not being 100% identical to canon. But that wasn't constructive at all.

I'm a fan of many fandoms, for sure, and I understand how the little things can sometimes get under your skin (for instance, in Game of Thrones there is a scene where Petyr Baelish quotes something and the quote is entirely wrong and for some reason that just irks me.) I'm also a role player, as well as a writer and aspiring author, and I absolutely love the Star Trek franchise as a whole.

However, you have to remember. The scimitar you buy isn't THE Scimitar. That scimitar was the basis for this scimitar and that scimitar happened in canon...100 years ago? Technology has changed, so have desires. You also have to take into account that the Romulan Republic is just getting itself together to start pumping out new ships (presumably) instead of what they've been liberating from the Tal Shiar. So no, it's not going to be exact. Maybe it was recreated bigger for intimidation, maybe the specifications for it in the current STO day and age required it to be bigger.

stirling191 · July 2013

voxius wrote: »

However, you have to remember. The scimitar you buy isn't THE Scimitar. That scimitar was the basis for this scimitar and that scimitar happened in canon...100 years ago? Technology has changed, so have desires. You also have to take into account that the Romulan Republic is just getting itself together to start pumping out new ships (presumably) instead of what they've been liberating from the Tal Shiar. So no, it's not going to be exact. Maybe it was recreated bigger for intimidation, maybe the specifications for it in the current STO day and age required it to be bigger.

The battle of Bassen Rift was in 2379. STO is set in 2409. It's only been 30 years. Things haven't changed that much.

Secondly, player-flyable Scimitars are explicitly stated to be Republic vessels, not commandeered Tal Shiar warships.

Finally, STO is typically fairly good about it's capital ship scaling. The Scimitar is a glaring departure from that. Asking why that is is not an unreasonable question.

wufangchu · July 2013

Wellll, perhaps they didnt see that image?? perhaps the image they saw and had to draw from was the image of poor little enterprise sitting in front of a scimitar which on screen is easily four times larger than them.. Even the ramming scene does nothing to contradict the size difference. instead, it emphasizes it.. either way you look at it, its still an incredibly well done ship ( beyond my one dissatisfaction mentioned elsewhere ). I'm going to just enjoy it as it is.. Although, JamJamz?/ Could you Please drop the inertia rate to 18 or something more reasonable?? The drift on this ship is monstrous..It makes Tokyo Drift look like a movie about African sand dunes.

pyryck · July 2013

You guys might want changes made to YOUR purchase, but I do NOT want any changes made to MY purchase. :eek:

You guys can get some glasses or a magnifying lens or even fly your ship differently.

I like what I bought and have been enjoying it immensely. Thank you devs for the new toy!

voxius · July 2013

stirling191 wrote: »

The battle of Bassen Rift was in 2379. STO is set in 2409. It's only been 30 years. Things haven't changed that much.

Secondly, player-flyable Scimitars are explicitly stated to be Republic vessels, not commandeered Tal Shiar warships.

Finally, STO is typically fairly good about it's capital ship scaling. The Scimitar is a glaring departure from that. Asking why that is is not an unreasonable question.

30 years ago, it was 1983. That should be all I have to say to tell you how quickly technology advances. Generations in technology are something like 2-3 years at best before something with newer technology comes out and if you haven't noticed, the more advances we make in technology the quicker we come out with better technology. I shudder to think of what 30 years in a technology advanced world like Star Trek can accomplish.

As to your second point, I did say "You also have to take into account that the Romulan Republic is just getting itself together to start pumping out new ships (presumably) instead of what they've been liberating from the Tal Shiar." in which I meant that the Republic HAS created these ships, not the Tal Shiar. But its previous ships have been commandeered and salvaged from the tal shiar.

Thirdly, yes they have been. The ship scales are pretty mark on for the most part, however, a lot of them are not 100% accurate. Neither is the scimitar/tulwar/falchion, it's not THAT much bigger than it was in canon.

toiva · July 2013

voxius wrote: »

When I first read this I wanted my reply to read something like how silly it was that you felt the need to write up this huge post over something as simple as the ship not being 100% identical to canon. But that wasn't constructive at all.

I'm a fan of many fandoms, for sure, and I understand how the little things can sometimes get under your skin (for instance, in Game of Thrones there is a scene where Petyr Baelish quotes something and the quote is entirely wrong and for some reason that just irks me.) I'm also a role player, as well as a writer and aspiring author, and I absolutely love the Star Trek franchise as a whole.

And I thank you for that, I know this is silly compared to in game bugs (but yes, specifically, this one thing irks me a lot). As it is silly, I'm not asking for a rescale (though it'd be great), I simply want to know why there was the need to make such a departure from trying to keep ships reasonably 'small' (as I said, the Jem dread is smaller, I have a feeling the Big D is also a bit smaller than it should be). Or if it was a simple mistake, I'd like to know that and hope they're a bit more careful next time.

voxius wrote: »

However, you have to remember. The scimitar you buy isn't THE Scimitar. That scimitar was the basis for this scimitar and that scimitar happened in canon...100 years ago? Technology has changed, so have desires. You also have to take into account that the Romulan Republic is just getting itself together to start pumping out new ships (presumably) instead of what they've been liberating from the Tal Shiar. So no, it's not going to be exact. Maybe it was recreated bigger for intimidation, maybe the specifications for it in the current STO day and age required it to be bigger.

True, and the original Scimitar was clearly a unique vessel built in large part for Shinzon personally, so any future versions couldn't even be 100% replicas.

But now we are to play in a game with those enormous warbirds and I just can't think of why they couldn't actually make them a bit smaller or simply keep the size. Now the spawns are even less pleasant place to be in, sector space is also getting crowded...

wufangchu wrote: »

Wellll, perhaps they didnt see that image?? perhaps the image they saw and had to draw from was the image of poor little enterprise sitting in front of a scimitar which on screen is easily four times larger than them.. Even the ramming scene does nothing to contradict the size difference. instead, it emphasizes it.. either way you look at it, its still an incredibly well done ship ( beyond my one dissatisfaction mentioned elsewhere ). I'm going to just enjoy it as it is.. Although, JamJamz?/ Could you Please drop the inertia rate to 18 or something more reasonable?? The drift on this ship is monstrous..It makes Tokyo Drift look like a movie about African sand dunes.

Sure it's a well designed (artistically, as for stats, I have a ... different idea) ship.

Btw, the higher the inertia, the faster the ship reacts to commands (speed changes). I know it's illogical, but that's what it is in game, the largest ships have the lowest inertia value (and I'm glad the Scim doesn't have it too high).

voxius · July 2013

Personally I am 100% content with the aesthetic of the dreadnaught warbirds. I remember back when I was playing a federation toon (a year ago, I quit when I hit level cap and came back a year later to the release of the Romulans) and my captain was tactical. I know I didn't have to use only escort ships but I have OCD so I had to use only escort ships, lol.

I remember thinking each time I got a new ship, "Yeah it's tough...But it's kinda puny. I want one of these massive ships that just dominates sector space with its huge bulky hull!"

Well, as a Romulan, I get that. The Mogai, the D'Deridex, the Ha'Feh and now the dreadnaught. I love having HUGE warships.

As for spawn in zones, that's a completely different. That needs to be re-worked in and of itself, or enable the ability to go through each other in non-combat maps (sector space and certain planets) or just make a broader zone for spawning in.

cidstorm · July 2013

Something definitely seems off here.

amosov78 · July 2013

I've not pulled my D'deridex-class up beside one yet, generally speaking they should be about this size to each other: Size Comp #1 Size Comp #2

toiva · July 2013

amosov78 wrote: »

I've not pulled my D'deridex-class up beside one yet, generally speaking they should be about this size to each other: Size Comp #1 Size Comp #2

I personally don't have the Big D (yeah, I could claim the Tier 4 ...), but the problem there is their collision boxes. You can't get them very close to each other.

But, from a purely subjective glancing over spawn zones, the D'Deridex seems dwarfed by the Scimitar. Definitely not the relative sizes those pics you offer present.

(It's btw a video with a Scimitar from Tribble as viewed by someone flying a D'Deridex that was the first thing to look strange. From all the angles in the video, the D'Deridex looks small.This is it, look at about 8:30, there the two ships fly relatively close to each other.)

Why is the Scimitar larger than in Nemesis, JamJamz?

Comments