Why were Captain Riker and Lt. O'brien demoted?

sonnikku · June 2013

It is almost as though the best of both worlds never happened. Riker made Captain did he not? The next thing you know after the borg incident Riker is a commander again and it is as though it never happened. Ditto for O'brien. He's a full blown commissioned officer with the rank of Lieutenant, only to be demoted to an enlisted rank and become subordinate to Nog. What happened?

jonsills · June 2013

sonnikku wrote: »

It is almost as though the best of both worlds never happened. Riker made Captain did he not? The next thing you know after the borg incident Riker is a commander again and it is as though it never happened. Ditto for O'brien. He's a full blown commissioned officer with the rank of Lieutenant, only to be demoted to an enlisted rank and become subordinate to Nog. What happened?

Riker was brevetted Captain in order to assume command of the Enterprise. His permanent rank was still Commander; when Picard returned to duty, Riker's brevet was revoked, as is standard procedure. He would only be promoted if he accepted a command.

As for O'Brien, so far as I know he was never actually promoted to LT - he was still referred to as "Chief" in DS9. If there was a bit where someone called him Lt. O'Brien, the writers must have forgotten it as quickly as I did. (Although I did find it a bit odd that a warrant officer was placed in charge of operations for a major space station...)

risingstar2009 · June 2013

Riker's advancement in rank was a Field Commission that was revoked shortly after the Borg Cube blew up.

O'Brien was never a commission officer. He was offer the rank of Lt. once, but didn't want it because of the added responsibility. And because he believe that a majority of those given a commission had a frontal lobotomy done, removing their common sense.

sonnikku · June 2013

I guess it just seems a bit crazy how Kirk saves the world, goes from Cadet to Captain in one day. Riker saves the world, gets told to go back to his 1st officer post. Also Picard was manipulated by an alien race the Federation doesn't fully understand and went on to kill thousands of people, but sure. Put him back in command of the Enterprise. No worse for ware. :P Seems to me like there's some seriously screwball logic at play here.

aurelias1 · June 2013

sonnikku wrote: »

I guess it just seems a bit crazy how Kirk saves the world, goes from Cadet to Captain in one day. Riker saves the world, gets told to go back to his 1st officer post. Also Picard was manipulated by an alien race the Federation doesn't fully understand and went on to kill thousands of people, but sure. Put him back in command of the Enterprise. No worse for ware. :P Seems to me like there's some seriously screwball logic at play here.

Well, keep in mind, I'm pretty sure it's actually referenced in the same episode, Riker had been offered a Captain's chair several times, and he kept turning it down. I'm pretty sure in Part 1 we're told he had just been offered another command. So it's not that he was 'told to go back to his 1st officer post', he decided to.

It's a conceit of Trek in general, in order to maintain the same cast of characters. In an actual military organization, staying in the same position at the same post for the better part of a decade would be a good way to kill your career, not advance it.

Unknown · June 2013

This content has been removed.

jonsills · June 2013

f2pdrakron wrote: »

Yes, he was offered the command of the Melbourne.

Which was destroyed at Wolf 359 - good thing he turned it down, huh?

And at the end of part 2, it was mentioned that he could have his pick of commands as Starfleet rebuilt. He preferred to remain as Picard's exec, which is another thing that strikes me as being odd - as Aurelias says, in a real military organization, staying in one place means that you'll eventually be booted. (When I was at SAC HQ in '86, our squadron commander got busted for sexually harassing female enlisted personnel. He accepted an Article 15 punishment, and was removed as squadron commander and sent to be deputy squadron commander at Thule AFB, in Greenland. That was pretty much the end of his career...)

javaman1969 · June 2013

O'Brien was refereed to as Lieutenant in a few early episodes of TNG. It seems that he simply became a CPO as the writers finally fleshed out his character.

ferdzso0 · June 2013

jonsills wrote: »

(Although I did find it a bit odd that a warrant officer was placed in charge of operations for a major space station...)

to me, that was one of my favourite bits of the shows. on the Enterprise, he didnt do much, but he got a full space station to repair.

now first off, he was on the Enterprise, the best of the best of the bestest

and DS9 wasnt to be as important as it turned out to be. so it was a kind of nice touch imo

tc10b · June 2013

Riker basically took the demotion to remain on the Enterprise after it was immediately given back to Picard for no apparent reason other than to keep the status quo. By rights, as Picard had been declared dead the Enterprise was his ship until either he was formally promoted to Captain (likely considering they'd offered him a post which was later destroyed) or they handed over the Enterprise to a more senior captain, but considering the losses at 359 seems unlikely as most of the senior captains would have been killed.

O'Brien was initially a Lieutenant in the scripts but then the writers decided they didn't want everyone on board to be an officer and show some enlisted men (like a real navy) and so he was re written as an NCO and officially never was an officer. (Retcons for the win!)

f9thaceshigh · June 2013

brevet promotions are pretty commonplace in crisis situations, in fact, most wartime promotions are considered brevets, battlefield promotion or not (at least that was the case in WWII, this may not be the case anymore). it's standard procedure for a brevetted officer to revert to his old rank after the crisis has passed, as I understand, the service convenes a board to determine if you need to keep your rank in the peacetime service. The only case where you automatically would not revert is if you are brevetted to five-star admiral/general, because that is considered a permanent rank (5-stars are even entitled to active duty pay for life).

Technically, your character's battlefield promotion in the Tutorial would be considered a brevet. All of our toons would revert back to ensign when the Borg are defeated or when the Klingon War ends.;)

aurelias1 · June 2013

f9thaceshigh wrote: »

Technically, your character's battlefield promotion in the Tutorial would be considered a brevet. All of our toons would revert back to ensign when the Borg are defeated or when the Klingon War ends.;)

There's a war with the Klingons? I hadn't noticed.

jonsills · June 2013

f9thaceshigh wrote: »

Technically, your character's battlefield promotion in the Tutorial would be considered a brevet. All of our toons would revert back to ensign when the Borg are defeated or when the Klingon War ends.;)

It was a brevet at the time; however, when you get back to ESD, Admiral Quinn confirms your promotion to Lieutenant and assigns you command of the ship you arrived on. (Interestingly, that also grants you the title of Captain while you're aboard; it's longstanding naval tradition that no matter what the rank of the ship's commander, he is to be referred to as Captain. There have been admirals commanding aircraft carriers in the US Navy who have been properly referred to as "Captain" during duty hours.)

wanderer89 · June 2013

sonnikku wrote: »

I guess it just seems a bit crazy how Kirk saves the world, goes from Cadet to Captain in one day.

Thankfully, this never happened in the Prime Universe

onehappytapeworm · June 2013

jonsills wrote: »

(Although I did find it a bit odd that a warrant officer was placed in charge of operations for a major space station...)

Actually I have served in two branches in the military and it is very commonplace for Warrant Officers to be in charge at all levels. Warrant Officers have to be an NCO to put in a package for selection. They also have to have (currently) 5 years experience in the field that they are seeking to be a Warrant Officer in. Warrant Officers only stay in there field of expertise, whereas Officers can be assigned where ever (as example in my unit we had a Transportation LT as platoon leader even though we are a Quartermaster platoon [she was in fact damned near useless]).

It is also very common to find Warrant Officers in charge of motorpools, maintenance shops, and various shops at the battalion levels.

eldarion79 · June 2013

wanderer89 wrote: »

Thankfully, this never happened in the Prime Universe

No, more outrageous things have happened like space salamanders, space TRIBBLE (ENT and TOS), Greek Gods and their giant space hands, space amoeba, Picard becoming a teen for a day, Tasha and Data having sex.

sjokruhlica · June 2013

O'Brien got the post on DS9 because he was a veteran of the Cardassian War and was familiar with their technology.

redsnake721 · June 2013

I remember in the TNG "The Wounded" It mentioned that O'Brien served as tactical officer aboard the USS Rutledge during the Cardassian War. Strange that a Chief Petty Officer would be the Tactical officer of a Starship. That's 5th in the Chain of command, CO, XO, OPS, CHANG, TAC.
I always thought that was strange. But it was war time, perhaps they were short on personnel

grylak · June 2013

I always figured the Chief in TNG was just referring to him being the transporter chief. Only in DS9 did they state he was a non comisioned officer.

marcusdkane · June 2013

When Worf's parents came on board the Enterprise, Sergei immediately addressed O'Brien as Chief Petty Officer, despite the fact he was wearing identical rank pips to Worf's

As for Riker, as mentioned above (and as Admiral Hansen said to Picard) having remained a commander a long as he had would realistically have destroyed the chances of him getting an active command. Realistically, rather than the promotion shown in Nemesis and the written adventures of the Titan, he would more likely have recieved a name-only promotion and some kind of position at Command or instructor's position at the Academy...

javaman1969 · June 2013

grylak wrote: »

I always figured the Chief in TNG was just referring to him being the transporter chief. Only in DS9 did they state he was a non comisioned officer.

I think that's what they intended. He was called "Chef" O'Brien on the Enterprise because he was the transporter chef with his actual rank not being too clear in the script until DS9. Kind of like chief Galen Tyrol in BSG being flight deck chef, a CPO and later Chef Engineer.

Previous comments in this thread state O'Brien was a Chef Warrant officer. I had him figured as a chef Petty Officer. I'm not sure what the technical difference is other than the title.

oldschooldork · June 2013

marcusdkane wrote: »

When Worf's parents came on board the Enterprise, Sergei immediately addressed O'Brien as Chief Petty Officer, despite the fact he was wearing identical rank pips to Worf's

Sergei to Chief O'Brien...
"Don't call me sir, I worked for a living..." as an Army veteran I can honestly say no truer words have ever been spoken

Loved that episode.

fmgtorres1979 · June 2013

jonsills wrote: »

Which was destroyed at Wolf 359 - good thing he turned it down, huh? And at the end of part 2, it was mentioned that he could have his pick of commands as Starfleet rebuilt. He preferred to remain as Picard's exec, which is another thing that strikes me as being odd - as Aurelias says, in a real military organization, staying in one place means that you'll eventually be booted. (When I was at SAC HQ in '86, our squadron commander got busted for sexually harassing female enlisted personnel. He accepted an Article 15 punishment, and was removed as squadron commander and sent to be deputy squadron commander at Thule AFB, in Greenland. That was pretty much the end of his career...)

Well, if he was on the Melbourne, probably no one would have died at Wolf359 as Q wouldn't let Riker die LOL

crypticarmsman · June 2013

lets just be honest and say that if they WERE approaching the aftermath of BOBWI & II properly:

1) iker would have retained his Captain rank and gone to another ship as soo as it became available around the start of Season 5 -- assuming they were able to get the Fleet up and running in less then a year as Cmdr. Shelby stated. Also, he really wouldn't have been given that much of a choice as the experienced pool of senior officers was effectively decimated.

2) A good portion of the existing 1701-D Senior officer staff would have been re-assigned to augment new ship crews as the ships became available - again, because of the severe shortage of experienced officers.

3) The 1701-D would have received a fair amount of 'raw recruits' as replacements for the re-assigned senior officers.

now, why didn't this happen -- because TNG was a TV show, the cast was locked in and needed to continue for Season 4 and beyond -- and overall (except for a few callbacks in later seasons to BoBW) -- the proverbial reset button was firmly pressed and in play after TNG's "Family" aired.;)

captiandata1 · June 2013

well by 2366 riker had already turned down 2 commands of his own to stay on the enterprise and how many other ship commands did riker turned down and probally including voyager before admial k janaway said to will that the titian might be you last chance for you own command. riker got the luna class titian which has the fire power between a heavy cruiser and a light scout cruiser and qually good in engineering.

yes riker wanted to be the captain of the flag ship. in a way the luna was the flag science flag ship by 2379 with almost as strong phasers and shields as the sovy and torpedo fire power between intrepid class and sovy class

marcusdkane · June 2013

oldschooldork wrote: »

Sergei to Chief O'Brien...
"Don't call me sir, I worked for a living..." as an Army veteran I can honestly say no truer words have ever been spoken Loved that episode.

Indeed, I've been told that my grandfather was a Chief Petty Officer (memory is sketchy if it was Royal Navy or merchant, but I'm told he served on a mine-sweeper at some point in his career) and he turned down promotion as he didn't want to become 'one of them'

marcusdkane · June 2013

captiandata1 wrote: »

well by 2366 riker had already turned down 2 commands of his own to stay on the enterprise and how many other ship commands did riker turned down and probally including voyager before admial k janaway said to will that the titian might be you last chance for you own command. riker got the luna class titian which has the fire power between a heavy cruiser and a light scout cruiser and qually good in engineering.

yes riker wanted to be the captain of the flag ship. in a way the luna was the flag science flag ship by 2379 with almost as strong phasers and shields as the sovy and torpedo fire power between intrepid class and sovy class

I've not read any of the Titan novels, but realistically, I think Riker's last chance at command would have been the Melbourne, or an immediate transfer off the Enterprise-D immediately after Picard returned to duty. By remaining as Picard's first officer, realistically, most of the admiralty would have seen him as someone unwilling to work without the safety net of a captain above him and unsuitable for command... (which on a personal level, like the author of this article I don't think he was suitable for...)

Why were Captain Riker and Lt. O'brien demoted?

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