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DPS: DHCs vs DBBs
krodh
Member Posts: 45 Arc User
I've been doing a number of experiments with comparing damage output of DHCs vs DBBs, and the numbers make no sense.
Using a single mk 1 plasma DHC/DBB at 125(+10) wep energy against a wild romulan mogai (lvl 12). The experiment has two phases:
1) First, I test the damage against shields (+bleedthrough).
2) Then I de-shield the target with tachyon beam and test against just the hull.
I tested this out on over 30 separate mogais, and discarded any contaminated data (such as accidental debuffs, other players attacking the targets, plasma procs, etc.).
Here is a rough breakdown of the performance:
> Between 9.5-10 km, DBBs do roughly 200% the damage of DHCs to both shielded and unshielded targets alike.
> Between 4.5-5.5 km, DBBs do roughly 133% the damage of DHCs to shielded targets, and roughly 100% the damage of DHCs to unshielded targets.
> Between 1-2 km, DBBs do roughly 115% the damage of DHCs to shielded targets, and roughly 85% the damage of DHCs to unshielded targets.
Does this make sense? I always thought that DHCs are supposed to outclass the DBBs in all but around the 9+ km distance mark. But the DPS output clearly favours the DBBs. Am I doing something wrong? I have a good setup with DHCs, but I can easily switch to DBBs. Should I? Would it be worth it? Or is there something that I am not doing with DHCs that would increase the DPS? Would the use of CSV/FAW cause the numbers to shift towards favouring DHCs? What is going on? I am so confused...
Using a single mk 1 plasma DHC/DBB at 125(+10) wep energy against a wild romulan mogai (lvl 12). The experiment has two phases:
1) First, I test the damage against shields (+bleedthrough).
2) Then I de-shield the target with tachyon beam and test against just the hull.
I tested this out on over 30 separate mogais, and discarded any contaminated data (such as accidental debuffs, other players attacking the targets, plasma procs, etc.).
Here is a rough breakdown of the performance:
> Between 9.5-10 km, DBBs do roughly 200% the damage of DHCs to both shielded and unshielded targets alike.
> Between 4.5-5.5 km, DBBs do roughly 133% the damage of DHCs to shielded targets, and roughly 100% the damage of DHCs to unshielded targets.
> Between 1-2 km, DBBs do roughly 115% the damage of DHCs to shielded targets, and roughly 85% the damage of DHCs to unshielded targets.
Does this make sense? I always thought that DHCs are supposed to outclass the DBBs in all but around the 9+ km distance mark. But the DPS output clearly favours the DBBs. Am I doing something wrong? I have a good setup with DHCs, but I can easily switch to DBBs. Should I? Would it be worth it? Or is there something that I am not doing with DHCs that would increase the DPS? Would the use of CSV/FAW cause the numbers to shift towards favouring DHCs? What is going on? I am so confused...
Post edited by krodh on
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Devs hate beams for some reason.
@deokkent: How can I submit pictures? Is there some specific place I have to upload them?
I will redo the experiment, process the data with the ACT tracker, and get back to you.
Thanks.
It becomes 7 to 8 weapons with scatter or rapid fire V 4 DBB's with beam skills.
But you are correct in observing that beam weapons do not suffer as severe of a range penalty as cannons do.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
In general i find the following to be true over about a weeks of testing
Beams on the average player performs between 1400-1800 Dps.
Beam potential can reach up to 4.2k Dps
Cannons on the average player performs between 2800 and 3200 dps
Cannon potential can reach up to 6.4kdps.
I have heard rumors of special cannon builds that can sustain 9.4k Dps
but i am unable to believer this is single target or sustained, though i can
believe it is aoe and burst / cd popped related
Beam damage is directly proportional to its statistics
Cannon damage is directed proportional to its related abilities
Beam damage has very accurate rates of hitting a target
Cannons are generally very inaccurate
Beams consume large amounts of energy
Cannons consume moderately low amounts of energy
Beams deal damage over any distance (as seen) with no decay
Cannon damage decays over distance
From these we learn
Beams are long range, high powered, Constant Damage Dealing classed weapons
With little to no skill dependencies.
Cannons are close to Moderate range, High rate of fire weapons, with ligh power requirements and large skill dependencies.
This tells us that
As long as these variables are in this situation, that in principle Beams should
out damage (this is not dps, but actual damage done) cannons to a single target
And cannons will out Dps beams on Aoe mobs
Actually, Its more accurate to say that devs dislike beam skills
Because cannons are only good in your view (and others) because
the games combat system is directly interlinked and proportional to
skill/abilities buffs to damage. If these issues were resolved, Beams
would likely prove to be around 5-10% superior to cannons.
This is one of the many addressments in my combat revisions for the game.
I think the solution here is to nerf cannon skillls
- Reduce duration on Scatter shot
- Reduce spread range on scatter shot
- Reduce Cannon recharge timer from 2 seconds to 4
- Increase beam rechange from 4 to 3 Seconds.
My guess in your notice of the damage differential are directly related to
energy. It may be that your damage taken on shields is sapping energy
which normall keeps weapons at peak levels.
But i would have to see more or have more info to decide on that.
Actually, I didn't use a parser. Instead, I recorded a vid of my attacking the targets with beams and cannons, and then calculated the DPS manually. Long winded, but it got the job done.
More significantly, shortly after posting the initial experiment, I did a second, in which I timed how long it took to kill a mogai with a single mk 1 DHC/DBB.\
> At >8 km, the beam took a mean average of 20 seconds, and the cannons took a mean average of 40 seconds.
> At 4-6 km, the beam took a mean average of 15 seconds, and the cannons took a mean average of 27 seconds.
> At <2 km, the beam took a mean average of 11 seconds, and the cannons took a mean average of 20 seconds.
The beam seems to have been performing better than the cannon.
That said, I am yet to perform the experiment with FAW and CSV.
Now, I understand that cannons with CSV do 'true' splash, while beams with FAW do splash that is limited by the number of targets being attacked. However, this set of tests is essentially to gauge single target damage.
The DHC has a higher sustained dps than the DBB as a function of its base damage being higher and its rate of fire being slower. If you miss or fail to fire, because of arc, the DHC more frequently than the DBB the former may seem less effective than the latter when the former is more definitely designed to be more powerful within the game.
There are two reasons I can think of assuming power levels are the same - whether or not the target stays in arc and the special abilities being used. Otherwise:
Base damage:
DHC > DBB > SBA > DC > SC > Turret
Sustained damage:
DHC = DC > DBB > SC > SBA > Turret
As for your entire dialog about what beams and cannons are/are not it doesn't really apply given how liberally the developers have implemented those specific game assets to a degree where they bear no actual semblance to the fiction.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Couple of things:
1) No, I do not miss, nor does the target move out of the firing arc, and my power levels are being maintained quite well (I have the Romulan enhanced weaponry console set from the valdore and mogai retrofit, so power drain is negated, at least for a single DHC/DBB). I can control my ships quite well. I made sure that the tests were quite thorough, and free of silly things like the target moving out of the firing arc.
2) I tested the DPS out with the Advanced Combat Tracker. The base damage dealt was greater for the DBB, and while the DHC did the higher average damage per volley, the DBB did more DPS.
3) Testing out FAW and CSV changed things a bit, but only at close range. CSV caused the damage output of DHCs to jump quite a bit - more than FAW at close range. However, at long range, FAW still outdid CSV, except for the condition of...
4) When attacking 4 or more enemies at the same time, CSV does more overall damage (and DPS), even at long ranges, than DBBs with FAW.
5) Ultimately, the most important factor here is the time it takes to kill an enemy; and the DBBs kill faster than the DHCs in almost all cases, except for when CSV is used at close range (<5 km), or when CSV is used on 4+ targets.
I don't know why this is happening, but it is happening. And it's frustrating the hell out of me. Why should I stick with DHCs if DBBs are performing so much better? Am I doing something wrong with DHCs?
Well, you should almost always be fighting at close range, because any weapon will put out more DPS close in. There was heavy testing on this done a while back, which resulted in this tool, last updated for Season 4: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=236545 Basically, beams do their best damage at 1 km and closer, dropping off to about 2/3 at 10 km, while cannons do best at 2 km and closer, dropping off to about half at 10 km. In fact, even according to that a single DBB will do more DPS than a single DHC at 5 km and up, not counting any abilities or additional targets. That means that the very limited circumstances under which you're finding DHCs to be better actually encompass the majority of combat.
The other factor here is weapon power drain. If you're actually managing to negate that entirely for the purpose of these tests, that will boost the DPS of both weapons, but do more for DBBs since beams are less power efficient (yes, DHCs drain more power at once, but keep it drained for a shorter time, resulting in a higher average power level, so power efficiency goes something like DHC>Turret>DC=Single Cannon>DBB=Beam Array). That would help to push you away from the standard results and toward the ones you're seeing.
Aah, ok. That makes sense. I know that FAW tends to drop my power levels like crazy. FAW off of 4 DBBs drops my power levels lower than CSV off of 4 DHCs and 3 turrets. So it would make sense that the power levels affect the overall DPS.
While what you say is logical, I disagree with the premise that it encompasses most combat. At least in my case, it does not, and should not. I don't want to attack targets at close range. I usually build my ships to be glass cannons, and if they get too close, they can get killed easily. So, I prefer to play a hit and run style, keeping enemies at around 7.5 km.
Furthermore, a large chunk of my gameplay is STFs. These occasionally involve needing to attack a bunch of enemy targets in clusters (which results in the 4+ targets scenario), but also require you to attack 'boss' targets, such as Donatra's valdore.
And so now it comes down to the decisions. Beams or cannons...? Assuming that I go with cannons, what could I do to optimise my damage potential, especially against single targets at long distance? Assuming that I go with beams, what could I do to improve my AoE damage, or negate energy drain? Questions, questions...
This is why cruisers are pidgeonholed into broadsiding with Beam Arrays (except KDF cruisers which can turn on a dime) and every other ship utilizes DHCs/Turrets. DBBs have one purpose, really: to mount ONE of them up front for a Beam Overload spike. Everything else is DHCs and Turrets.
I see your point, but I don't intend to use my rear weapons. Rather, I intend to put 2 or 3 reputation weapons there (omega plasma torp, romulan plasma torp, and cutting beam; maybe not even the cutting beam) to bolster the DPS of the fore weapons.
I think I'm going to go with DHCs and see what happens. Any tips for how to maximise DHC DPS?
I'm not trying to bolster my fore dmg with rear weapons. Rather, they're for the set bonuses.
Unless you're suggesting that I could get more DPS from discarding the set bonuses in favour of turrets...?
Of course you can. You should use the KCB, it's like a turret but for the most part better, but on the others the set bonus isn't worth what you're giving up. The 3 piece bonus from using the Omega torp isn't a damage boost at all, it's a tanking boost, and a pretty minor one at that. The 2 piece Romulan does give a DPS boost if you're using Plasma energy weapons, but it's only 7.6% and calculated the same way the tac consoles are, so you're looking at maybe an extra 20 DPS per weapon, which is a lot less than a turret. So it's useful if you were going to use it anyway (a 3 DHC 1 torp setup, for example), but not worth giving up a weapon slot for.
You, Sir, have given me hope for playing this game...
Ok, so, if my understanding of the situation is correct: I can go with 4 DHCs, 2 turrets, and KCB, and get more DPS than if I had gone with 4 DHCs, Omega torp, Rom torp, and KCB?
That means that I don't need to stick with plasma... perhaps I should go with antiproton?
Ok, I know I'm moving away from the initial premise of the thread, but I have more questions:
I have a fed tac and a rom (KDF aligned) tac. My plans were to get:
1) Andorian Kumari with the fed, and get 5 plasma DHCs, omega torp, and rom torp.
2) Fleet Ha'feh with the rom, and get 4 plasma DHCs, omega torp, rom torp, and KCB.
So, now, if I replace the omega torp and rom torp with turrets, and get antiproton or disruptors instead of plasma my DPS should increase, right?
Which would improve my DPS more: disruptors or antiproton? According to my calculations, it should be antiproton, but I figured I would ask first.
Also, which do you think would do more burst damage? The Kumari or the Ha'Feh? According to my calculations, the Ha'Feh will suffer from less power drain (I also have the enhanced weapon systems console set from the valdore and mogai retrofit), and with the cloak bonus from romulan battle cloak, plus the crit bonuses from romulan BOFFS, plus antiproton weapons; the Ha'Feh should do more burst damage than the Kumari. However, that additional DHC could do a world of hurt, especially when Omega Weapon Amplifier procs, removing the power drain problem. Additionally, the 2 piece andorian set gives additional accuracy.
Any thoughts on what I should focus on?
Yes. The loss in burst from your DHCs is made up for by sustained damage from your aft 360 degree weapons. This excellent post shows the damage progression graphically.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=162618
Unless you have access to a Fleet with a Tier II Engineer and a Fabricator, you can't find Mk XII Antiproton weaponry. Also, the 2 piece Singularity Harness bonus really does make Plasma the preferred choice in PVE.
Really, the differences in the weapon types are so small, just go with whatever colour of skittles pleases you most. Antiproton is theoretically the highest DPS in the hands of a TAC, and you'll certainly bring higher crits, but it's in the nature of crit damage to frequently be wasted in overkill. Just stack accuracy so you don't miss, and get cost-effective weapons. If cost is no object and you crave the highest possible weapon DPS, yeah, get Fleet AP with Accx2.
APs will increase your personal DPS more, but disruptors increase everyone's DPS, which produces more victory.
The Omega Weapon Amplifier is not useful for a cannon boat, imo. The proc duration is 3 seconds, which means that by the time your hits score on the enemy, your DHCs have finished their firing cycle, and won't recharge until the proc has expired. Much better with beams, which have a near-instant travel time and a much longer firing cycle, plus a broadsiding beam boat will get more procs by virtue of firing 8 beams simultaneously.
I prefer the Ha'Feh. The soft advantages more than make up for the extra weapon slot. The Ha'feh as better shields, more hull, and battle cloak.
Hmm, I am still somewhat upset by the turrets resulting in reduced DHC damage, but DPS is DPS.
I have access to fleets on my Fed and Kling chars, but not yet with my Rom char. I'm looking for a Tier 5 fleet, so that I can get my Ha'Feh.
Yes, I always get the highest ACC weapons.
See, my goal is to deal very high burst damage, to take out clusters of enemies before anyone (enemy or ally) can react. While team-play is great, I would prefer to be selfish in this regard and maximise my own DPS. So: is the plasma conductive circuitry bonus (the 2 piece romulan singularity set bonus) worth sacrificing a turret? That is my question. If so, then plasma it is. If not, then antiprotons it is.
I see your point, but I intend to use CSV extensively, and that is an instant-hit attack. Even so, you're right - relying on the proc is too much of a gamble.
Thus, I embark on a weekend of Romulan-ing it up...
I have a friend who runs a burst build, actually, and if what you care about is burst over sustain, then I recommend this: Drop the turrets for mines, aft. One surprisingly useful option is the Tractor Beam Mine Launcher, which you can pair with the Breen Transphasic Cluster Torpedo. The mines will ensure that your target sticks around for the cluster pummeling, and they're just plain useful period. Tractored opponents have reduced defense, so you'll get more crits/crit damage against them, and they're also really useful on STFs like the Cure and Conduit. Your sustained damage won't be as good, but it brings a LOT of utility and burst.
In the meantime, may I recommend the Fleet T'Varo Retrofit. Solid, all round ship, and available with only a Tier I shipyard.
Well, I'm assuming you've maxed out your Starship Weapon Training and Starship Energy Weapons skills. With max-quality consoles, you're looking at +348% of base Mk 0 damage from your energy weapons. The 2 piece synergy only boosts that figure by another 7.6%. So no, I don't think it's going to have an enormous effect, ESPECIALLY if you itemize and skill to overcap your Weapon System Energy.
Well, no reason you can't use the KCB + Assimilated Console for their direct effects. The extra crit/critd and weapon power from the console will not go amiss on a build designed for burst. Six points in Warp Core Potential, plus Six in Starship Weapon Performance, that's +12 weapon energy, for a total of 132 weapon energy. 4 forward-bearing DHCs and the KCB will draw a maximum of 44 energy (in practice less, thanks to the DHC's efficient firing cycle). That by itself is going to make some pretty big holes in teeth.
One other reason to go Rom: Easy access to Romulan Bridge officers with the 'Operative' trait. Free crit anyone?