... what I find confusing is why so many people seem so eager to throw out STO from even the possibility of some canonicity in its storylines. Is it a bad thing to continue Star Trek beyond Nemesis?
Paid STO subscriber since December 2010, and DJ for mmo-radio
Is it a bad thing to continue Star Trek beyond Nemesis?
Not if it's done well.
The only problem is, everyone who seems to get their hands on the IP aims for Pax Foederare Galaxiae while trying to slip in as much politically correct nonsense as possible.
I'm taking bets on which LGBT flavor the next prime canon captain will be.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
The only problem is, everyone who seems to get their hands on the IP aims for Pax Foederare Galaxiae while trying to slip in as much politically correct nonsense as possible.
I'm taking bets on which LGBT flavor the next prime canon captain will be.
um... explain Pax Foederare Galaxiae please, as well as LGBT.
And again, I was referring to timeline of events as candidates for canon. That is WHEN the Hobus Nova occurred, when New Romulus was founded, when the Klingon war began,... things like that. Canonicity does NOT mean every single little teeny thing in STO must therefore also be fully-canon. We (at least some of us) are only intending for basic storyline events and major plot points to be included, thus adding legitimacy to STO, rather than canonic shovelware like the Starfleet Command series (great games in their own right).
Paid STO subscriber since December 2010, and DJ for mmo-radio
um... explain Pax Foederare Galaxiae please, as well as LGBT.
Galactic peace, Federation style. It seems an inevitable conclusion, because everyone wants to trump the last guy who got his hands on the IP, ie powercreep for stories. But once the Federation rules the entire Milky Way, what's left? War against the Q?
The LGBT line should be obvious. We've hit several key demographics already; dramatic men, bald men, black men, power suit women, however you'd want to classify Bakula.... my point being, the IP has suffered from an overt attempt to push some sociopolitical views. Characters don't even seem to struggle over doing the right thing; they exhibit hardly more critical thinking than a Borg drone.
This is why I find gutting the RSE so frustrating; eliminating or subjugating every potential antagonist of the Federation just solidifies the march towards PFG (that really is a mouthful). Cliched villains, like what STO offers Sela, the RSE and the Tal'Shiar up as, just aren't as compelling, or as realistic.
I think they hit on a few elements that had the potential for success; a new Fed-Klingon war would be great, but failed here for whatever reason. Seeing the prophets return the Dominion fleet was great, and I'd love to see a future series use that. I could probably find a few more things worth holding onto, but that's really the way to treat any soft-canon or fan-fiction; use it for a handful of good ideas, but otherwise toss the bulk of it.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
Galactic peace, Federation style. It seems an inevitable conclusion, because everyone wants to trump the last guy who got his hands on the IP, ie powercreep for stories. But once the Federation rules the entire Milky Way, what's left? War against the Q?
The LGBT line should be obvious. We've hit several key demographics already; dramatic men, bald men, black men, power suit women, however you'd want to classify Bakula.... my point being, the IP has suffered from an overt attempt to push some sociopolitical views. Characters don't even seem to struggle over doing the right thing; they exhibit hardly more critical thinking than a Borg drone.
This is why I find gutting the RSE so frustrating; eliminating or subjugating every potential antagonist of the Federation just solidifies the march towards PFG (that really is a mouthful). Cliched villains, like what STO offers Sela, the RSE and the Tal'Shiar up as, just aren't as compelling, or as realistic.
I think they hit on a few elements that had the potential for success; a new Fed-Klingon war would be great, but failed here for whatever reason. Seeing the prophets return the Dominion fleet was great, and I'd love to see a future series use that. I could probably find a few more things worth holding onto, but that's really the way to treat any soft-canon or fan-fiction; use it for a handful of good ideas, but otherwise toss the bulk of it.
Using "its not that good" as reasoning is a bit of a fallacy, as there are many events in Voyager that are utter TRIBBLE (reference "Threshold") and yet ARE official canon. Once again, canonicity depends entirely on what the studio and/or franchise owner determines is such. Good or not.
And once again, I am only talking about timeline of events here, not little details.
and by "explain LGBT" I meant what does that acronym stand for. All I see is meaningless letters, unless you establish it beforehand (without requiring someone to scroll up to previous posts). As for "flavor of captain"... what, you wanted the same character type in each series? Since Star Trek has always used itself as a platform to explore sociological issues, it is only appropriate that each captain have different traits as a potential focus for this.
Paid STO subscriber since December 2010, and DJ for mmo-radio
If you can get Cbs to allow you to create such a large game and if you can get Leonard Nimoy to narrate think it should be canon. Almost all events in the game correlate with fact.
STO is not Canon
The Galaxy class , Nebula Class and Intrepid class prove that by any Doubt
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
"Canon" is basically whatever the suits in charge pick, even if it's terrible.
The TV shows and movies are all canon, even the JJ Abrams films. Those are just in a separate timeline from our 'main' universe.
Books and videogames, like STO, are "soft canon", meaning that they're not really established as canon, but as long as they don't contradict canon, can probably be used to explain things.
Sometimes the suits will decide to incorporate soft canon into one of the tv shows, promoting it to canon.
STO is not technically canon. But simply deriding it as "non-canon" would be incorrect. There are some definitely non-canon bits, but in all it's probably just "soft-canon".
Using "its not that good" as reasoning is a bit of a fallacy, as there are many events in Voyager that are utter TRIBBLE (reference "Threshold") and yet ARE official canon. Once again, canonicity depends entirely on what the studio and/or franchise owner determines is such. Good or not.
Actually, as far as I understand it, it's whatever the writer of "canonical" material determines it to be, which includes overturning previous canon. So all those Voyager foibles could be easily resolved by hiring a writer willing to readily dismiss them as necessary, especially the more egregious ones. Admittedly, I haven't watched Voyager comprehensively, and actually like some of their more ludicrous moments (Janeway and Paris becoming warp 10 salamanders, for one).
And once again, I am only talking about timeline of events here, not little details.
In some cases, I don't know how you separate the two. Romulus destroyed? Fine. By a subspace super nova triggered by the Tal'Shiar in the next sector over? Silly, to the point of being ridiculous. Merging the RSE and the Tal'Shiar into essentially a single entity because it facilitates both Cryptic's implementation of the Romulan player faction and Cryptic's own personal desire for a hippy-fest? Beyond ridiculous.
But where would you draw the line? Where would you trust someone else to draw the line?
and by "explain LGBT" I meant what does that acronym stand for. All I see is meaningless letters, unless you establish it beforehand (without requiring someone to scroll up to previous posts). As for "flavor of captain"... what, you wanted the same character type in each series? Since Star Trek has always used itself as a platform to explore sociological issues, it is only appropriate that each captain have different traits as a potential focus for this.
TRIBBLE TRIBBLE Bisexual Trans-something (transgender, transvestite, IDK, I don't even know if they know).
My point being, diversity is fine, but don't make it the focal point of a character or the series. The IP doesn't exist to promote same sex marriage, or any other contemporary sociopolitical cause, but rather to question our humanity in the face of the unknown/alien.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
"Canon" is basically whatever the suits in charge pick, even if it's terrible.
The TV shows and movies are all canon, even the JJ Abrams films. Those are just in a separate timeline from our 'main' universe.
Books and videogames, like STO, are "soft canon", meaning that they're not really established as canon, but as long as they don't contradict canon, can probably be used to explain things.
Sometimes the suits will decide to incorporate soft canon into one of the tv shows, promoting it to canon.
STO is not technically canon. But simply deriding it as "non-canon" would be incorrect. There are some definitely non-canon bits, but in all it's probably just "soft-canon".
I would like to further emphasize the "elements of" part, as people continue to look at STO as a whole being canon or not. ... quite frankly, I really wish people would stop making issues be a "black or white", "this or that" problem.
Everything is a matter of degree, and in this case, its that the basic timeline of major events is canon, as approved by CBS.
Names and events themselves are more a soft-canon, as they are open for revision based on CBS and Paramount's wishes for further continuation.
details and anything related to gameplay experience and player control are non-canon, as they have no justification from the franchise itself, and thus no basis in approved storyline, and therefore non-canon
So, as we see, there are canon, soft-canon, and non-canon elements all throughout STO. So the correct answer would be both yes and no.
There is NO reason to not include the timeline of major events into Star Trek canon, some of which are (arguably) already there.
Paid STO subscriber since December 2010, and DJ for mmo-radio
Everything is a matter of degree, and in this case, its that the basic timeline of major events is canon, as approved by CBS.
We really don't know that for sure. I believe the story about CBS prompting Cryptic to make STO more compatible with the at the time forthcoming JJTrek. Beyond that, the only CBS input I've heard about is on the T5 connie, stupid as their position is given that even (or especially) they probably don't give this game more than soft canon status (hard to argue, given that they'll readily overturn "hard canon" and have done so often enough in the past).
Names and events themselves are more a soft-canon, as they are open for revision based on CBS and Paramount's wishes for further continuation.
details and anything related to gameplay experience and player control are non-canon, as they have no justification from the franchise itself, and thus no basis in approved storyline, and therefore non-canon
So, as we see, there are canon, soft-canon, and non-canon elements all throughout STO. So the correct answer would be both yes and no.
There is NO reason to not include the timeline of major events into Star Trek canon, some of which are (arguably) already there.
So, Romulus is destroyed. From what I recall of 2009, that's the most specific they got regarding Hobus. Any slight additional specification is too minute to consider hard canon.
There's also a Federation-Klingon cold war going on, but not really going anywhere (this story was really weak on the Fed side; is it better on the Klingon side?).
Any other timeline notations you feel are worth considering canon? I mean, if D'Tan and the RR are soft canon, as you suggest, then I suppose the founding of NR can be considered canon, though the group that found it and its location are up for grabs.
I really don't remember there being all that much else across the STO timeline.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
We really don't know that for sure. I believe the story about CBS prompting Cryptic to make STO more compatible with the at the time forthcoming JJTrek. Beyond that, the only CBS input I've heard about is on the T5 connie, stupid as their position is given that even (or especially) they probably don't give this game more than soft canon status (hard to argue, given that they'll readily overturn "hard canon" and have done so often enough in the past).
I haven't said that CBS is calling it canon, because we do not know. This is a matter of us discussing whether the idea has merit, and asking if they SHOULD call (at least some of) it canon. I, for one, say yes.
As for the T5 Connie, that is a Paramount decision, not CBS. The Constitution (refit) is under the ownership of Paramount, as its appearance was in feature films, not television. And the deal Cryptic cut with Paramount is complete and utter TRIBBLE, as they have to negotiate for every single little piece of the movie franchise separately, for amounts of money they just do not have.
Personally, I just think Paramount has been bitter, ever since The Motion Picture was not the epic Star Wars counter that they had hoped for.
Paid STO subscriber since December 2010, and DJ for mmo-radio
The Constitution (refit) is under the ownership of Paramount, as its appearance was in feature films, not television.
I'm sure they just own rights to the model.
No one says a T5 connie needs to use the same model as Paramount's. I'd personally prefer if it used the skin already in-game. I don't see why it absolutely needs to use the model from JJ Trek, or (refit) in its title.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
No one says a T5 connie needs to use the same model as Paramount's. I'd personally prefer if it used the skin already in-game. I don't see why it absolutely needs to use the model from JJ Trek, or (refit) in its title.
Its still covered under Paramount's contract, not CBS's. All Constitution variants are central to the original refit model, and you cannot have one without the other. If they tried, Paramount would certainly cause a stink about it, and Cryptic cannot afford it.
Paid STO subscriber since December 2010, and DJ for mmo-radio
All Constitution variants are central to the original refit model, and you cannot have one without the other.
I'm really not following what you're saying here; Paramount owns the 2009 model, what you title the "refit." You're saying they also own all possible variants? Even the original TOS skin?
What's stopping Cryptic from offering the original TOS skin as an endgame ship? They can easily call it the Fleet Constitution, and avoid any mention of a refit.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
I'm really not following what you're saying here; Paramount owns the 2009 model, what you title the "refit." You're saying they also own all possible variants? Even the original TOS skin?
What's stopping Cryptic from offering the original TOS skin as an endgame ship? They can easily call it the Fleet Constitution, and avoid any mention of a refit.
No no no, by "Refit" it is not the redesign seen in 2009. It refers to the "refit" of the original Enterprise, seen on Star Trek: The Motion Picture, and then seen again on Wrath of Khan, Search for Spock, and as the 1701-A on Voyage Home, Final Frontier, and Undiscovered Country. All such feature films are under the ownership of Paramount, not CBS.
Paid STO subscriber since December 2010, and DJ for mmo-radio
I wouldn't go that far. The DoW games had, by far, superior stories.
I can't say I know what DoW is? STO is pretty much the only game I play these days. To be fair some elements of the game like the 8472 being called undine or the Elachi etc could become canon. Its just STO is a video game and it is written as a video game so it is so very different from tv Star Trek and like I said multiple wars on multiple fronts plus an Iconian/ Undine infiltration is just too much.
A TIME TO SEARCH: ENTER MY FOUNDRY MISSION at the RISA SYSTEM Parallels: my second mission for Fed aligned Romulans.
No no no, by "Refit" it is not the redesign seen in 2009. It refers to the "refit" of the original Enterprise, seen on Star Trek: The Motion Picture, and then seen again on Wrath of Khan, Search for Spock, and as the 1701-A on Voyage Home, Final Frontier, and Undiscovered Country. All such feature films are under the ownership of Paramount, not CBS.
So the TOS skin is good to go.
I assume that's what people are looking for when they say T5 connie. Besides, doesn't Cryptic already have access to the TMP models?
I can't say I know what DoW is? STO is pretty much the only game I play these days. To be fair some elements of the game like the 8472 being called undine or the Elachi etc could become canon. Its just STO is a video game and it is written as a video game so it is so very different from tv Star Trek and like I said multiple wars on multiple fronts plus an Iconian/ Undine infiltration is just too much.
I agree that there are very different demands placed on this format versus something on screen. Certain considerations (*cough*T5 connie*cough*) should be made given that as a game, it isn't going to become hard canon, and abiding certain elements of canon interferes with Cryptic's ability to deliver a product players want. In the end, disappointing players doesn't serve Cryptic's, PWE's, CBS's or even Paramount's goals.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
Dawn of War, a series of games in the Warhammer 40k universe from Relic (the guys who did the Homeworld games). The first set - Dawn of War and its expansion-sequels (Winter Assault, Dark Crusade and Soulstorm) - are base-building, army-building RTS games, whereas Dawn of War II and its expansions (Chaos Rising and Retribution) are more RPG-ish in nature.
I assume that's what people are looking for when they say T5 connie. Besides, doesn't Cryptic already have access to the TMP models?
This is part of the crappy deal that they have with Paramount. They have permission to access the TMP models ONLY as an early-level ship. In order to create a T5 retrofit, Cryptic would need permission for this craft to be used on a much larger scale than originally negotiated for. This may sound stupid... because it is. Paramount is literally treating STO as a cash cow every opportunity they get, and should Cryptic break any of the stated agreements, Paramount execs already have lawyers on speed-dial.
As for using the TOS Connie... they have the right to do so... but then we get into a situation of whether or not that would even be feasible in 2409. I mean, honestly... the idea of a T5 TOS Constitution-class is just absurd. There comes a point where it begins to break the illusion, and become nothing more than blatant fan-service. I, personally, agree with the idea of NOT making the TOS Connie a T5 or fleet retrofit.
Paid STO subscriber since December 2010, and DJ for mmo-radio
but then we get into a situation of whether or not that would even be feasible in 2409. I mean, honestly... the idea of a T5 TOS Constitution-class is just absurd.
There comes a point where it begins to break the illusion, and become nothing more than blatant fan-service.
A MMO based on a pre-existing IP basically is a blatant fan-service, especially when its leaning on a cash shop. The illusion is already broken, anyway; have you logged in lately? They couldn't do more damage if they tried (actually, they'd probably improve the situation if they tried to actively destroy it; Cryptic works in baffling ways).
T5 connie and a viable Galaxy class would probably shift players away from Escortcraft and JH/TS monstrosities.
As for "feasible," a 25th century connie built using 25th century materials and technology doesn't seem unreasonable. AFAIK, most ship designs are driven by warp theory; slapping a sector speed penalty on a T5 connie seems punitive, but wouldn't be game breaking. I mean to say, my fleet defiant is (or should be) smaller than a connie, but still sits somewhere near the top of the potency rankings.
I don't see any reason why even a NX-01 couldn't be given a T5 version; anything to combat every other player ship being a dominion or Romulan vessel (sadly, only a slight exaggeration).
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
A MMO based on a pre-existing IP basically is a blatant fan-service, especially when its leaning on a cash shop. The illusion is already broken, anyway; have you logged in lately? They couldn't do more damage if they tried (actually, they'd probably improve the situation if they tried to actively destroy it; Cryptic works in baffling ways).
T5 connie and a viable Galaxy class would probably shift players away from Escortcraft and JH/TS monstrosities.
As for "feasible," a 25th century connie built using 25th century materials and technology doesn't seem unreasonable. AFAIK, most ship designs are driven by warp theory; slapping a sector speed penalty on a T5 connie seems punitive, but wouldn't be game breaking. I mean to say, my fleet defiant is (or should be) smaller than a connie, but still sits somewhere near the top of the potency rankings.
I don't see any reason why even a NX-01 couldn't be given a T5 version; anything to combat every other player ship being a dominion or Romulan vessel (sadly, only a slight exaggeration).
I think it can only do more harm than good. Because once you go down that road, and create a T5 TOS Connie, they will be flooded with requests for the refit Connie, and when they are unable to cut a deal with Paramount and cannot fill these wishes, they will be seen as a failure and players will feel like their wishes are being intentionally ignored.
Besides, more people would want a ship they can customize, than the oldschool ship with only a single design.
IF they are going to add a new Tier 5 ship, I say that it be a variety kitbash ship. Open up an advanced ship tailor, and release three types (escort, cruiser, science) and use virtually all the pieces of each preceeding their, allowing players to build their own custom ship from scratch, not just variants of a basic design.
Now THAT I would pay money for
Paid STO subscriber since December 2010, and DJ for mmo-radio
In one word ... Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
IF they are going to add a new Tier 5 ship, I say that it be a variety kitbash ship. Open up an advanced ship tailor, and release three types (escort, cruiser, science) and use virtually all the pieces of each preceeding their, allowing players to build their own custom ship from scratch, not just variants of a basic design.
Now THAT I would pay money for
Yeah I would be all for that just because I am a customization nut.
A TIME TO SEARCH: ENTER MY FOUNDRY MISSION at the RISA SYSTEM Parallels: my second mission for Fed aligned Romulans.
Yeah I would be all for that just because I am a customization nut.
As am I. Wouldn't even need additional permissions, because they already have all the necessary pieces. Though I suppose the pieces would be limited to ships that already have a VA or fleet version, so the Miranda, Constitution and NX would be omitted.
Paid STO subscriber since December 2010, and DJ for mmo-radio
I think it can only do more harm than good. Because once you go down that road, and create a T5 TOS Connie, they will be flooded with requests for the refit Connie, and when they are unable to cut a deal with Paramount and cannot fill these wishes, they will be seen as a failure and players will feel like their wishes are being intentionally ignored.
Besides, more people would want a ship they can customize, than the oldschool ship with only a single design.
IF they are going to add a new Tier 5 ship, I say that it be a variety kitbash ship. Open up an advanced ship tailor, and release three types (escort, cruiser, science) and use virtually all the pieces of each preceeding their, allowing players to build their own custom ship from scratch, not just variants of a basic design.
Now THAT I would pay money for
If this option ever opened up, I know of a few people personally that would be "Here, Take my wallet."
Star Trek Battles: For those who want to Play Star Trek Online as it WAS MEANT TO BE!!!
I think it can only do more harm than good. Because once you go down that road, and create a T5 TOS Connie, they will be flooded with requests for the refit Connie, and when they are unable to cut a deal with Paramount and cannot fill these wishes, they will be seen as a failure and players will feel like their wishes are being intentionally ignored.
I think that's rather weak reasoning. They're already seen as a failure on this issue for that very reason; at least some (many?) complaints would be silenced if they introduced a T5 TOS connie (which is usually what people are asking for when they're subsequently informed of Cryptic's poor deal with Paramount), and most people seem to understand that they won't negotiate for any more of Paramount's material.
Besides, more people would want a ship they can customize, than the oldschool ship with only a single design.
Perhaps. As we've discussed, the game is a basically just a fan service. At least, that's the most profitable way for Cryptic to approach it; trying too hard to adhere to canon just gets in the way of selling zen and retaining players. Few are the people so unable to suspend disbelief that they'll enter apoplectic fits of rage over a T5 TOS connie.
IF they are going to add a new Tier 5 ship, I say that it be a variety kitbash ship. Open up an advanced ship tailor, and release three types (escort, cruiser, science) and use virtually all the pieces of each preceeding their, allowing players to build their own custom ship from scratch, not just variants of a basic design.
Now THAT I would pay money for
You and some others. Others still would be perfectly content with a T5 TOS connie.
Why? What is so horrible about including timeline events of STO into official canon?
Nothing really seems so awesome that it should be included. That happens when writers consistently aim low. Nothing is memorable, except that dominion fleet suddenly popping up again. Hard canon unfortunately can aim low and fail to provide any memorable moments, but for soft/non-canon to make the leap it should be spectacular.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
Whenever one plays in a given game, it must be accepted that the universe in that game is going to be 'canon' for the duration of that game. When you then jump to another game whose authors disagreed with those who wrote the previous game, you will have to accept the new authors' version of that universe as 'canon' within that game, or you will make mistakes and generally be unsuccessful.
That's even supposing that an established canon exists, which in ST's case can be debatable. Are the Star Trek: Destiny novels canon? Then doesn't that invalidate any future appearance of the Borg as a threat to the Federation? What about Star Trek: Enterprise, where the Klingon homeworld is only a few hours away from Earth at Warp 5?
Bottom line: As long as you are playing in STO, STO is canon for you, and Star Trek: Legacy is not. When you go and play Star Trek: Legacy, then Star Trek: Legacy is canon, and STO isn't.
Comments
The only problem is, everyone who seems to get their hands on the IP aims for Pax Foederare Galaxiae while trying to slip in as much politically correct nonsense as possible.
I'm taking bets on which LGBT flavor the next prime canon captain will be.
um... explain Pax Foederare Galaxiae please, as well as LGBT.
And again, I was referring to timeline of events as candidates for canon. That is WHEN the Hobus Nova occurred, when New Romulus was founded, when the Klingon war began,... things like that. Canonicity does NOT mean every single little teeny thing in STO must therefore also be fully-canon. We (at least some of us) are only intending for basic storyline events and major plot points to be included, thus adding legitimacy to STO, rather than canonic shovelware like the Starfleet Command series (great games in their own right).
The LGBT line should be obvious. We've hit several key demographics already; dramatic men, bald men, black men, power suit women, however you'd want to classify Bakula.... my point being, the IP has suffered from an overt attempt to push some sociopolitical views. Characters don't even seem to struggle over doing the right thing; they exhibit hardly more critical thinking than a Borg drone.
This is why I find gutting the RSE so frustrating; eliminating or subjugating every potential antagonist of the Federation just solidifies the march towards PFG (that really is a mouthful). Cliched villains, like what STO offers Sela, the RSE and the Tal'Shiar up as, just aren't as compelling, or as realistic.
I think they hit on a few elements that had the potential for success; a new Fed-Klingon war would be great, but failed here for whatever reason. Seeing the prophets return the Dominion fleet was great, and I'd love to see a future series use that. I could probably find a few more things worth holding onto, but that's really the way to treat any soft-canon or fan-fiction; use it for a handful of good ideas, but otherwise toss the bulk of it.
Using "its not that good" as reasoning is a bit of a fallacy, as there are many events in Voyager that are utter TRIBBLE (reference "Threshold") and yet ARE official canon. Once again, canonicity depends entirely on what the studio and/or franchise owner determines is such. Good or not.
And once again, I am only talking about timeline of events here, not little details.
and by "explain LGBT" I meant what does that acronym stand for. All I see is meaningless letters, unless you establish it beforehand (without requiring someone to scroll up to previous posts). As for "flavor of captain"... what, you wanted the same character type in each series? Since Star Trek has always used itself as a platform to explore sociological issues, it is only appropriate that each captain have different traits as a potential focus for this.
STO is not Canon
The Galaxy class , Nebula Class and Intrepid class prove that by any Doubt
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
"Canon" is basically whatever the suits in charge pick, even if it's terrible.
The TV shows and movies are all canon, even the JJ Abrams films. Those are just in a separate timeline from our 'main' universe.
Books and videogames, like STO, are "soft canon", meaning that they're not really established as canon, but as long as they don't contradict canon, can probably be used to explain things.
Sometimes the suits will decide to incorporate soft canon into one of the tv shows, promoting it to canon.
STO is not technically canon. But simply deriding it as "non-canon" would be incorrect. There are some definitely non-canon bits, but in all it's probably just "soft-canon".
In some cases, I don't know how you separate the two. Romulus destroyed? Fine. By a subspace super nova triggered by the Tal'Shiar in the next sector over? Silly, to the point of being ridiculous. Merging the RSE and the Tal'Shiar into essentially a single entity because it facilitates both Cryptic's implementation of the Romulan player faction and Cryptic's own personal desire for a hippy-fest? Beyond ridiculous.
But where would you draw the line? Where would you trust someone else to draw the line?
TRIBBLE TRIBBLE Bisexual Trans-something (transgender, transvestite, IDK, I don't even know if they know).
My point being, diversity is fine, but don't make it the focal point of a character or the series. The IP doesn't exist to promote same sex marriage, or any other contemporary sociopolitical cause, but rather to question our humanity in the face of the unknown/alien.
I would like to further emphasize the "elements of" part, as people continue to look at STO as a whole being canon or not. ... quite frankly, I really wish people would stop making issues be a "black or white", "this or that" problem.
Everything is a matter of degree, and in this case, its that the basic timeline of major events is canon, as approved by CBS.
Names and events themselves are more a soft-canon, as they are open for revision based on CBS and Paramount's wishes for further continuation.
details and anything related to gameplay experience and player control are non-canon, as they have no justification from the franchise itself, and thus no basis in approved storyline, and therefore non-canon
So, as we see, there are canon, soft-canon, and non-canon elements all throughout STO. So the correct answer would be both yes and no.
There is NO reason to not include the timeline of major events into Star Trek canon, some of which are (arguably) already there.
So, Romulus is destroyed. From what I recall of 2009, that's the most specific they got regarding Hobus. Any slight additional specification is too minute to consider hard canon.
There's also a Federation-Klingon cold war going on, but not really going anywhere (this story was really weak on the Fed side; is it better on the Klingon side?).
Any other timeline notations you feel are worth considering canon? I mean, if D'Tan and the RR are soft canon, as you suggest, then I suppose the founding of NR can be considered canon, though the group that found it and its location are up for grabs.
I really don't remember there being all that much else across the STO timeline.
I haven't said that CBS is calling it canon, because we do not know. This is a matter of us discussing whether the idea has merit, and asking if they SHOULD call (at least some of) it canon. I, for one, say yes.
As for the T5 Connie, that is a Paramount decision, not CBS. The Constitution (refit) is under the ownership of Paramount, as its appearance was in feature films, not television. And the deal Cryptic cut with Paramount is complete and utter TRIBBLE, as they have to negotiate for every single little piece of the movie franchise separately, for amounts of money they just do not have.
Personally, I just think Paramount has been bitter, ever since The Motion Picture was not the epic Star Wars counter that they had hoped for.
No one says a T5 connie needs to use the same model as Paramount's. I'd personally prefer if it used the skin already in-game. I don't see why it absolutely needs to use the model from JJ Trek, or (refit) in its title.
Its still covered under Paramount's contract, not CBS's. All Constitution variants are central to the original refit model, and you cannot have one without the other. If they tried, Paramount would certainly cause a stink about it, and Cryptic cannot afford it.
What's stopping Cryptic from offering the original TOS skin as an endgame ship? They can easily call it the Fleet Constitution, and avoid any mention of a refit.
No no no, by "Refit" it is not the redesign seen in 2009. It refers to the "refit" of the original Enterprise, seen on Star Trek: The Motion Picture, and then seen again on Wrath of Khan, Search for Spock, and as the 1701-A on Voyage Home, Final Frontier, and Undiscovered Country. All such feature films are under the ownership of Paramount, not CBS.
I can't say I know what DoW is? STO is pretty much the only game I play these days. To be fair some elements of the game like the 8472 being called undine or the Elachi etc could become canon. Its just STO is a video game and it is written as a video game so it is so very different from tv Star Trek and like I said multiple wars on multiple fronts plus an Iconian/ Undine infiltration is just too much.
Parallels: my second mission for Fed aligned Romulans.
I assume that's what people are looking for when they say T5 connie. Besides, doesn't Cryptic already have access to the TMP models?
I agree that there are very different demands placed on this format versus something on screen. Certain considerations (*cough*T5 connie*cough*) should be made given that as a game, it isn't going to become hard canon, and abiding certain elements of canon interferes with Cryptic's ability to deliver a product players want. In the end, disappointing players doesn't serve Cryptic's, PWE's, CBS's or even Paramount's goals.
Dawn of War, a series of games in the Warhammer 40k universe from Relic (the guys who did the Homeworld games). The first set - Dawn of War and its expansion-sequels (Winter Assault, Dark Crusade and Soulstorm) - are base-building, army-building RTS games, whereas Dawn of War II and its expansions (Chaos Rising and Retribution) are more RPG-ish in nature.
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This is part of the crappy deal that they have with Paramount. They have permission to access the TMP models ONLY as an early-level ship. In order to create a T5 retrofit, Cryptic would need permission for this craft to be used on a much larger scale than originally negotiated for. This may sound stupid... because it is. Paramount is literally treating STO as a cash cow every opportunity they get, and should Cryptic break any of the stated agreements, Paramount execs already have lawyers on speed-dial.
As for using the TOS Connie... they have the right to do so... but then we get into a situation of whether or not that would even be feasible in 2409. I mean, honestly... the idea of a T5 TOS Constitution-class is just absurd. There comes a point where it begins to break the illusion, and become nothing more than blatant fan-service. I, personally, agree with the idea of NOT making the TOS Connie a T5 or fleet retrofit.
T5 connie and a viable Galaxy class would probably shift players away from Escortcraft and JH/TS monstrosities.
As for "feasible," a 25th century connie built using 25th century materials and technology doesn't seem unreasonable. AFAIK, most ship designs are driven by warp theory; slapping a sector speed penalty on a T5 connie seems punitive, but wouldn't be game breaking. I mean to say, my fleet defiant is (or should be) smaller than a connie, but still sits somewhere near the top of the potency rankings.
I don't see any reason why even a NX-01 couldn't be given a T5 version; anything to combat every other player ship being a dominion or Romulan vessel (sadly, only a slight exaggeration).
I think it can only do more harm than good. Because once you go down that road, and create a T5 TOS Connie, they will be flooded with requests for the refit Connie, and when they are unable to cut a deal with Paramount and cannot fill these wishes, they will be seen as a failure and players will feel like their wishes are being intentionally ignored.
Besides, more people would want a ship they can customize, than the oldschool ship with only a single design.
IF they are going to add a new Tier 5 ship, I say that it be a variety kitbash ship. Open up an advanced ship tailor, and release three types (escort, cruiser, science) and use virtually all the pieces of each preceeding their, allowing players to build their own custom ship from scratch, not just variants of a basic design.
Now THAT I would pay money for
- Judge Aaron Satie
Why? What is so horrible about including timeline events of STO into official canon?
Yeah I would be all for that just because I am a customization nut.
Parallels: my second mission for Fed aligned Romulans.
As am I. Wouldn't even need additional permissions, because they already have all the necessary pieces. Though I suppose the pieces would be limited to ships that already have a VA or fleet version, so the Miranda, Constitution and NX would be omitted.
If this option ever opened up, I know of a few people personally that would be "Here, Take my wallet."
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Perhaps. As we've discussed, the game is a basically just a fan service. At least, that's the most profitable way for Cryptic to approach it; trying too hard to adhere to canon just gets in the way of selling zen and retaining players. Few are the people so unable to suspend disbelief that they'll enter apoplectic fits of rage over a T5 TOS connie.
You and some others. Others still would be perfectly content with a T5 TOS connie.
Nothing really seems so awesome that it should be included. That happens when writers consistently aim low. Nothing is memorable, except that dominion fleet suddenly popping up again. Hard canon unfortunately can aim low and fail to provide any memorable moments, but for soft/non-canon to make the leap it should be spectacular.
Whenever one plays in a given game, it must be accepted that the universe in that game is going to be 'canon' for the duration of that game. When you then jump to another game whose authors disagreed with those who wrote the previous game, you will have to accept the new authors' version of that universe as 'canon' within that game, or you will make mistakes and generally be unsuccessful.
That's even supposing that an established canon exists, which in ST's case can be debatable. Are the Star Trek: Destiny novels canon? Then doesn't that invalidate any future appearance of the Borg as a threat to the Federation? What about Star Trek: Enterprise, where the Klingon homeworld is only a few hours away from Earth at Warp 5?
Bottom line: As long as you are playing in STO, STO is canon for you, and Star Trek: Legacy is not. When you go and play Star Trek: Legacy, then Star Trek: Legacy is canon, and STO isn't.