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Torp boats: near dead idea
jandraelune
Member Posts: 100 Arc User
With Shields being 75% resistant to Kinetic damage that makes all forms of kinetic damage outside of Transphasic, Harg'Peng, Plasma just stupid to use on one of these....with Transphasic making up almost 100% of the loadout.
It use to be not even a year ago that 1 Tricobalt = near 30k impact damage with High Yield. But try that same thing now and it's a brushing of 1k from the same 100% build as before ><
Transphasic and Harg'Peng is really the only option to a Torpboat as Transphasic does the most damage then even Quantum when shields are up. And Harg'Peng did a total of 30k before and still does due to almost all of it ignoring shields. And with Haarg'Peng's cool down reduced to firing again before it's second explosion happens WOW, 100% uptime of it's DoT.
Plasma is only one the list because it has a DoT that ingores shields, otherwise it wouldn't be here.
Breen Cluster is a tricky thing to use...fire too close and it dud's, fire too far and it's not reliable.
Before shields had a 75% damage reduction on Kinetic, you would see more torp use. Hell even see torpboats in use. But now, EVERYONE is using Dual Cannon's or Beam's, doesn't matter if DBB, BA, DC, DHC. Single Cannon is out, turret is only used by those that park and fire, Torps in general are out other then special ones like Harg'Peng, Breen Transphasic, Omega Plasma, Rom Plasma.
It use to be not even a year ago that 1 Tricobalt = near 30k impact damage with High Yield. But try that same thing now and it's a brushing of 1k from the same 100% build as before ><
Transphasic and Harg'Peng is really the only option to a Torpboat as Transphasic does the most damage then even Quantum when shields are up. And Harg'Peng did a total of 30k before and still does due to almost all of it ignoring shields. And with Haarg'Peng's cool down reduced to firing again before it's second explosion happens WOW, 100% uptime of it's DoT.
Plasma is only one the list because it has a DoT that ingores shields, otherwise it wouldn't be here.
Breen Cluster is a tricky thing to use...fire too close and it dud's, fire too far and it's not reliable.
Before shields had a 75% damage reduction on Kinetic, you would see more torp use. Hell even see torpboats in use. But now, EVERYONE is using Dual Cannon's or Beam's, doesn't matter if DBB, BA, DC, DHC. Single Cannon is out, turret is only used by those that park and fire, Torps in general are out other then special ones like Harg'Peng, Breen Transphasic, Omega Plasma, Rom Plasma.
Post edited by jandraelune on
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Torpedo boats aren't dead. Far from it. With the introduction of PWOs they're better than ever. They simply require a smidge of thought to use.
Example of actions done in a battle with NPC's recently.
Tricobalt High Yield 2 hit's target for 1k of damage
Follow up with.
Normal single Transphasic hits target for 2.5k of damage, POP.
^^^^ was just testign Transphasic torps, no damage console for them. Had for the Tricobalt.
To unshielded targets any projectile would out do a Transphasic, but that is rare to happen and more so when solo.
In the past you could pile on the Quantums and Tricobalts go out and cream fleets for 5k-30k hits even on shields. Try that eexact same thing now and you see 500-1.5k laughingly done.
Harg'Peng, only thing that has changed with it over the past year is a reduction in it's cool down, making even more useful.
Hell a year ago I took a full Torpboat into a Starbase 24 and Klingon Scouting force fleet action and took first place damage done and got a Floor Trophy for that.
And there's your problem. Stop trying to bang a square peg into a round hole.
Torpedoes are (with the possible exception of spike BO builds) the single most devastating per hit weapon available in game. What keeps them from being ridiculously overtuned is their weakness against shields.
Which is why you don't build a pure torpedo boat if you're going to solo. You build one that can break shields, and then deliver a devastating projectile follow-up.
No, you couldn't. PC torpedoes have always had the 75% DR when fired into shields.
But it isn't the weapon. Its the AI, the the people who wanted a wider skill gap.
This is really great for 2 reasons.
1) NPCs (some?) are balancing their shields, finally!!
2) PvErs will complain about torps more and their generally lower usability vs. Energy weapons, relatively high opportunity cost (skills, consoles) and lesser synergy than all energy builds (do not need to split consoles, which is effectively a type of "rainbow" build). Something PvPers have been complaining about for quite some time.
Meh, it is and it isn't. And when I say 'npcs started balancing' I mean they began doing this in (I think) during S6. I remember it was around then because I first learned STFing with a sci ship dual-photon boat with PSW3 as a coup de grace, then there were many complaints by certain people (a separate argument that would pointlessly derail the topic, but that was the source) and so everything that made the ship work got nerfed into uselessness.
Its good for the people that want the game to rely on skill and split second timing careful power management, and really separating the elites from the plebs those elites so disdain. On the other hand people who want to just play a game, put together a half-decent build and run on autofire and a single spacebar bind (if that) and really just kick back and blow stuff up, it makes a whole chunk of the weapon and power selections pretty useless and not fun. So, yeah, good for some, bad for others, depending on the personality of the player.
Isn't that what Normal mode is for?
Doesn't pay well enough to be worth doing. Plus I dont think i've ever seen anyone do a callout for normal difficulty other than ground for the accolades. Besides, i used to be able to run elites without expending actual effort, so why should I have to start now? And true pugging is just painful anyways.
I'm not sure what to tell you then.
You want to do missions flagged as "elite" but you want the enemies to roll over and die for you?
What do you need a big payout for, if all you care about is "...to just play a game, put together a half-decent build and run on autofire and a single spacebar bind (if that) and really just kick back and blow stuff up..." ?
Why do you need MK XII gear for "a half decent" build? Or is it just your dil farm now?
Your goals are at odds with one another.
You want the content to be bubble gum easy (which, really, it still is), you don't want to think or expend effort and that same content, weak as it is, is part of a tiny handful of the only "elite" content in all of endgame, which you want to do for rewards you seemingly do not require since they are not needed for your actual goals.
Eh not really. They're NPCs, so the purpose of their existence is to die in amusing ways for the player and to provide a benchmark to see if I built my ship better than my friends built theirs. I can spend hours, days comparing stats, benchmarking equipment, tweaking my boffs, just over-analyzing and over-engineering everything (yes I know I'm neurotic). The actual mission execution is just to see if my results match my estimations. If i have to actually expend on-the-fly effort during a run through a fixed puzzle, I've made a mistake somewhere.
The 'half decent build' comment I made was more about the general concept for players in like the 50th percentile who can do the missions comfortably enough, have the basics of ship design, and are at that stage where they might want to start experimenting or specifically optimizing. The various tools available to players at that level aren't always the most user friendly with a 'basic function' mode available to them as well as a high-end use, though the best ones have both. DEM for example, in the hands of an average user is a useful tool for chewing on enemies with high shield-to-hull ratios like Terran Empire or Tholians, but at the same time for the min-max elite it takes on additional uses for threatening shield tanks and managing weapons drain, and probably some additional traits I've never even through of. Its useful to both groups. EWP is another such power with both a straightforward anyone-can-use function and some fairly advanced possible tactics. These kinds of powers are great for players all across the board and are the kind of things we want more of.
On the other hand you get things like torpedoes or Overload or a good half of the sci powers, where because of the way things have adjusted they're still quite lethal in the hands of Admiral Slaughterfist 95th, but for Captain Joe 50th they're kind of a trap. I'm not against the skills of Admiral 95 giving him a heck of an advantage if he can Captain 50 went head-to-head with identical setups, but I do think that Captain 50 should be able to get some decent use out of any tool he decides to try out.
I'm not sure I understand your argument here--you are upset that a player who has dedicated him or herself to mastering a build is better than someone just starting out? Isn't that the way all things in life are?
The truth is that some builds relying on certain combinations of skills are just more advanced than others, while others are geared towards people who are just starting out as they learn their way into the more advanced setups. I do not think balance is the issue here, but rather a mentality wherein you expect to be a master after only a few minutes of playing.
If "Captain 50" doesn't sit down and think how his or her skills mesh together for the goals they are trying to achieve, then it doesn't matter how much utility is built in, they will fail. Walking onto the field with a hodgepodge of "cool sounding" moves (Gravity Well, Boarding Party, Emergency Power to Weapons, etc.) but not realizing that these moves in isolation are not very good will always be a recipe for disaster. And this is without thinking through skill allotments and the like.
I am not trying to sound elitist here. Everything I have just said comes from personal experience. For the first year of this game, I was running a space shovel, set up like it was an escort, running moves like Boarding Party, Tachyon Beam, and Science Team, and I was getting creamed by other players. Why? Because I had the mentality that if I button mashed hard enough, I might win. But in the end, that just isn't how it works. "Captain 50" should instead apprentice themselves to "Admiral 95" directly or indirectly and learn the tricks of how to get better. Unfortunately, that means getting beat down hard a lot in the process, even if you get lucky sometimes.
But I know from long time use. Tricobalt's before a change in the past year would do 20-30k damage on impact regardless...now they are laughed at doing 1.5k. Quantums always did 5-8k outside of crits, now doing 500-1.5k.
Torps have been ridiculously nerfed to shielded targets then before.
I also remember Transphasic torps a year ago were not 40% shield pen but like 20%. So YES some point over the year Kinetic damage vs shields got nerfed.
Another reason Torpboat's don't work is the vast PILE of lazy people that want everything to fight in stamp pressed molds that all match each other so they don't have to think for them self. Just grab stuff, copy some one else's layout and actions. They don't want room for individuals, just more clones.
Looking at what change's and adjustments Cryptic has done as well as new Content The above seems how THEY want things to work as well ><
Rep Store's 100% Anti-Proton weapons, no verity. Romulan ships catered to park and fire with turrets in rear like ALL the lazy copy clone Escort users.
I for one am NOT looking to join a clone army.
I don't park and fire, I don't even circle. I strafe and semi-circle....Keep moving.
Stop. Just stop. Kinetic weapons fired by players have always had 75% base reduction when fired into shields. They've never been shield killers.
Transphasics do their damage from bleedthrough, not by overpowering shields. The damage done by Transphasics to shields is still subject to the same 75% DR that every other player fired kinetic weapon is.
The change was made because at 20% bleedthrough, base damage lower than a photon and cooldown equivalent to plasma torpedoes, there was no reason to use Transphasics.
Now they're a reasonable weapon if deployed intelligently.
So your solution to a bunch of unthinking clones is to demand that one of the weapon types that requires thinking to have the thinking removed?
That makes sense.
Clones, eh? I'd say my escort is pretty different than others. I've never just copy+pasted a build. I use BO + THY + whatever tactical abilities I have that aren't on cooldown, with a fleet antiproton dual beam bank, fleet quantum, and then some DHCs and turrets. And I do it right out of cloak. Quite devastating, and I don't see 'clones' of it flying around.
Yes, and we covered this already.
Basic use = Normal mode.
"Adv" use = Elite mode.
If you can't handle, or don't want to put in the tiny amount of effort it takes to time a torpedo then you simply should stick to normal mode where spacebar mashing works effectively and you don't need to think at all.
If you want the rewards of "elite" mode, then you need to actually try just a little bit to play a better level than the typical spacebar masher. That's why it's a harder mode, and that's why the harder mode has the better rewards in the first place.
Not everything in a game should cater to the lowest common denominator, and to be frank 95% of this game's content already does - and it's there for players to faceroll their way through.
Conversely, I don't quite feel that generic transphasics have enough kick through the bleedthrough to kill targets, at least not quickly. And plasma fires are nice, but not quite dependable enough on their own. Breen cluster transphasic aside, I find it's best to whack down shields, and then whack the hull (which is perfectly feasible for torps).
Though IMO, the best way to go about a fast killing torp boat is to accumulate many of the exotic torpedoes and mines in the game and make them work together (Omega Plasma, Romulan Plasma, Hargh'peng, TDD, Tricobalts, Breen Cluster Transphasic, Ferengi Missile, Nukara Mine, Bio-Neural warhead), either in continuous fire or in a spike configuration.
I will say though, the lion's share of the damage from my ships seems to be coming from either the Romulan plasma (because it just cuts through shields by the sheer number of torps) or the Breen Cluster (just a nasty weapon in general). And it does seem true that when fighting an enemy with close to indomitable shields (Tholian Tarantula, Tactical Cube, Unimatrix & Queen), the Plasmas and Transphasics may begin to outperform the rest. But you could also say that you should never fight these enemies alone, so don't discount the utility or potency of other torpedo types
In any case, as long as you put though into what torps you're using and how you're going to fight, then your torp boat should do just fine. Especially with the T'varo, I wouldn't say torp boats are dead (though I can't particularly recall meeting another torp boat user).
Why not? why the condescension for players who aren't interested in challenge? Do you think some parts of the game should simply be off-limits to some players?
If a player isn't willing to make the effort to succeed in a given piece of content, why should they magically get the rewards of completing said content?
Why not? If I've got a build where I've bound everything to the spacebar, lazily fly in a preset pattern, and get the same sort of results as someone who spends the whole match 'living on the edge,' why shouldn't I get the prize?
Edit:
Though really, my own personal laziness is getting way off topic isn't it? More relevant is the idea of if Captain 50 should or should not be able to use any tool in the game, go anywhere in the game, or should some things be off-limits to average players?
Following that logic, why don't you walk up to Cryptic and demand that you be given a level 50 Captain with every ability available to him, piece of loot in your inventory, every C-store, Lobi store and Lockbox ship available, every Reputation finished and completed T5 starbase simply by hitting the "create character button"?
Want to get stuff out of STO? Get off your entitled *** and actually pretend to make an effort towards accomplishing something.
Your question is entirely moot, as no piece of content is off limits. All that's required is a modicum of effort. If you're not willing to make that effort, you have no business ******** that you can't take part in said content.
Heh. Why? If I got the win, whats it matter if i got there by working smarter instead of harder?
Its not entirely moot, because on point two I'm talking about Captain 50, not myself. (I'm more Captain 75ish. Not elite, but i can hold my own when I actually care to do so). All the way back to the original topic of torpedoes, and how because of AI adjustments advocated by a small group of players, a significant equipment family went from 'there's always a good use for them, no matter who you are' to 'less useful for Captain 50, best left in the hands of Admiral 95.' Do you think that sort of change and stratification is good for the game or not?
It's entirely moot. A player's skill level is entirely irrelevant to their capacity for actually giving a damn. Either accept that you're not going to have everything handed to you, or stand up and actually work for it.
I absolutely do. The more players use their brains, or god forbid ask for help if something isn't quite working for them, as opposed to being lazy, greedy "I want everything without having to actually put forth any effort" TRIBBLE, the better off everyone is.
Secondly, torpedoes still are incredibly powerful weapons when deployed properly.
I have to say that torps are just fine as they are
except maybe for the global cooldown that spaces out launches from multiple launchers.
it's really quite trivial to pop at torp through the hole you're just about to make in someone's shields.
I think there is a very easy way to do this also
Change Tricobolt/transphasic to being a level 10+ item, And
make its behavior more like that of cannons.
5-6 Sec Cd, deals something like 2000-3000 dmg (At Admiral) in damage.
If normally a cannot hits at 1000-1500 This gives you an idea, twice
the cool down, twice the damage.
You also would need to add Photon (and beam) turrets. Then the idea
would be viable.
It's not off limits to you.
You simply need to play the game a tiny bit more, rather than push a button, watch NPCs die and collect loot.
There is already a mode for you, what you want is every single mode to cater to you.
That's entitlement.
This is facetious.
Obviously you are not getting the same sorts of results, because that was the start of this off topic detour.
The concept that you are unable, through complete lack of effort, to slip torpedoes inside NPCs shields due to them...actually defending themselves in a very small way (they still generally don't heal/cross-heal, properly buff, etc).
So you are not getting the same results, and that is your issue - and is easily remedied by either putting in the most meager modicum of "effort" for it or playing the easier mode where enemies do basically roll over and die for you.
We're not talking major tactics and strategy here.
We're not talking proper team coordination and communication.
We're talking paying half attention to a downed shield facing to fire a torpedo vs. an NPC.
A bit of perspective.
Personally, I think an overall issue with Shield Mechanics may be in order to better reflect what we see in the shows and movies.
Consider when a ship at 100% shields gets hit.
Consider when the ship is at 60%.
Consider when the ship is at 40%.
That is not reflected in the game.
Shouldn't bleedthrough increase as shields are weakened?