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later romulan story missions too hard
bobbydazlers
Member Posts: 4,534 Arc User
the romulan story missions up to the end of wasteland seemed just about right, the story missions post wasteland are just too hard and the first 2 free ships seem just right but the 3rd and 4th free ships are just too slow and fragile.
the ground sections of the missions are ok its just the space sections, there are far too many enemy craft and their weapons are way too powerful, you get one or two hits and your shields are gone a little after you are needing to respawn by that time any damage done to enemy ships has been repaired so your back to square one.
you can make a little headway and take out one enemy ship by using the pirate distress call but as you have a long cooldown for this you should only need to use this once per mission at most and then only as a last resort.
the ground sections of the missions are ok its just the space sections, there are far too many enemy craft and their weapons are way too powerful, you get one or two hits and your shields are gone a little after you are needing to respawn by that time any damage done to enemy ships has been repaired so your back to square one.
you can make a little headway and take out one enemy ship by using the pirate distress call but as you have a long cooldown for this you should only need to use this once per mission at most and then only as a last resort.
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maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
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Hopefully, this will lead to them looking into the other space battles against the Elachi as well.
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
Why does everything need to be easy... cant we have some hard?
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
Indeed. Before LoR a player could faceroll his way to level 50 with a rainbow boat, but when they hit elite STFs or *hushed whisper* PvP the would find their ship turned in to a rapidly expanding debris cloud, because what was needed to complete the storyline missions was nothing close to what was needed for the difficulty of the end game content.
Instead of complaining that these missions are too hard, how about trying to build a ship and character that can complete it? Or learning the capabilities and weaknesses of the different enemies in the game?
I'm playing a sci Kling-Rom who is geared towards immobilization and torpedoes, but I was stuck as a level 33 commander in a D'D by the point of time that I hit the Elachi missions, a ship obviously geared towards eng-tanking and tac-gunning, so I got smeared. By this time on my Fed character, I was already a Vice Admiral with an established build and ship. Had I been Subadmiral, in my T'varo Refit by that point, I'd have fared much, much better.
Agreed. I always took 'hard' as a way to find a new approach to the issue. The same goes for these missions. They teach one how to tank, over the earlier missions which focused on dps. If its 'hard,' thats good, right? It gives you a challenge. Why do a lot of people wanna steam roll over everything? And if people think these missions are hard, wait until Elite STFs. And if THOSE are difficult, imagine PvP. . .
Member since early 2011
Word of warning before I go on, I haven't done all the Elachi Missions, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
That said, I want to be honest, you are essentially comparing Apple, Oranges and Cabbages all in one go. Storyline Missions should never be at the caliber of Endgame Content, nor PvP.
And any attempt to make PvE content on the level of PvP is a disaster waiting to happen. I will be blunt. I hate PvP. I am Terrible at it, and as a result it is frustrating as anything for me. That Frustration means I avoid it like the plague. And that is fine. PvP isn't and shouldn't be for everyone. But when you introduce that level of difficulty (and Frustration) into a game as a hole, you are basically saying, This game isn't for you. And that should never be.
Challenge is fine. Everyone likes a challenge, but when that challenge becames so much that it leads to frustration. It is time to look back and say, maybe we need to tone it down.
Here is the thing with STFs vs Story Missions. By the Time you go on STFs, Ideally you have a set build. You have bridge officers, who if not purple, are most likely blue. Same with gear. you have a ship you want and can build to be the most effective at what it is you do. So by all means, work that build and make it worth having.
But story Missions are not the same. You are leveling up, your gear is whatever you happen to find along the way. Sure, it might not be horrendous. I mean most likely you know what you are doing, so there is a semblence of a build. But it is no where near competitive. Most of your stuff is probably common to uncommon. You are stuck hunting whatever bridge officers you can get, and again these are probably mostly white and green maybe with a few blues thrown in. These things need to be taken into account when working on Story missions. As a result, The enemies should never be at the level of end game.
Now, specific to the Elachi, from what I have played, I find them mostly to be a good challenge. Ground units can be frustrating if you get too many around you, but for the most part, what I found frustrating in the levels I have played is the Maze like environment of the missions, rather then the difficulty of the Elachi themselves.
Even the space Forces while tricky aren't nearly as frustrating as the Romulan NPCs on the Fed side, which seem to have even been given a buff in recent times.
Either you misunderstood my point or I was not clear enough, though you brought it up for me. When you get to STFs, you 'should' have a build, or something resembling a build, that you want to stick with. However, story missions, as they were, were a cake walk. New players would think that because they could solo them, they could do the same in STFs, and because of that, they would often fail. Badly. These challenging missions are a break away from that. They show the player new ways to accomplish a mission. These are precursors to STFs. If you learn the basics in the story missions, you have a good foundation for STFs, which is difficult to acquire if you just breeze your way through the first 44 levels. These missions allow you to see what works, and what doesn't, to formulate a playstyle that you like.
Another thing it pushes the player to do is to team up with others to accomplish the mission. I personally liked that aspect. Defense of New Romulus, for example. That is close to what STFs would be like. If you cannot beat it alone, either look at it objectively and create a new, or improved, build to counter, or bring along friends that can run it with you. Atm, I'll admit, its tricky, since people are still coming in to play and finding a team for it may take awhile, but give it some time. This is also a way to get people ready for STFs, pushing teamwork.
Third, the PvP part is up to the player, I understand that. However, one of the biggest things that push people away from PvP is the steep learning curve. It in itself is a step up and beyond that of anything else ingame. Players that reach endgame are scared off by just how much there is to learn about, well. . . everything. I'm not saying they will have any better chance at learning that all in with more challenging missions, but at least they will not be as unprepared as they are now 'if' they decide to give PvP a shot.
Member since early 2011
By design. I'm sure you're familiar with the buzzword 'accessibility'? The only way to make content as widely accessible as possible....is to make it a cakewalk. That's why it takes zero effort to get to max level in 90% of the MMOs available to North America. This was specifically done to be the exact opposite of "the establishment" (which at that time, was EverQuest 1). You're about a decade too late. If the content isn't easy enough for a braindead armadillo to breeze through, it's too hard and must be changed. This isn't hyperbole, look at all of the AAA games in this genre. The entire "themepark" design focus (which is what the vast majority of games employ) is made specifically to teleport you from newbie zone to endgame. What you know when you get there is not important from a design perspective. Again, if you think I'm wrong, look at this and other games like it. Almost none of them force you to learn how to play because that usually involves numbers and forcing people to think about numbers is evil and elitist (or some other such tripe).
Again, you're a decade too late. Forcing or even strongly suggesting people group (except at the very end of the game) goes against the whole themepark thing. Forced socialization as a viable design goal died on November 23rd of 2004. Bringing along friends to complete a solo mission is a design failure (remember, braindead armadillo). That's why when wheels start squeaking about the difficulty of new content, it almost always leads to action (that action being making that content more "accessible" :rolleyes: ). I think you can expect more missions in the Romulan storyline to be changed.
The game desperately needs a hands on tutorial, without a lot of out of game reading you just have no clue how to build a good ship. What abilities do, how they work together are completely unexplored territory.
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The Problem is, much of the applauded "harder" content doesn't do this. again, I am going to throw the Romulans under the bus. More often then not, they do not force players to experiment on builds, they force players to build specific types of play styles. I find as I look for bridge officers, no matter how I play, I am forced to look for the same abilities from bridge officers, because at that is what it takes to advance past the Romulans. When you only have one science bridge officer slot, any slot that isn't used by Hazard Emitters becames a shield heal.
That isn't adapting, That is forcing a specific playstyle on a person. And that is not good for story content.
And here we get to the root of the problem. Story missions should never force team play. It is one thing to have optional objectives, that require other professions, These things do not impact the ability to play. But if you have to be in a team to advance in the story. Many people are going to be left out. People like myself don't know many people within the game, and none outside that also play. So again you are in effect cutting off someone from the game by saying. "you don't have anyone to play with, sorrry game isn't for you". Again, bad idea.
STFs, Fleet actions, etc. are group content. They are designed for groups. The idea that someone can solo it is player error, not a design flaw. But forcing someone to group for supposedly "solo" content IS inherently flawed.
The problem with PvP will always be it is PvP. No matter how smart an AI is, it is never going to be as smart as a live person. Trying to do otherwise is a failure of design. If you want people to go into PvP, you need to train them as a PvPer. PvP boot camp is most likely a great way of doing that. I myself haven't tried it, as I am waiting to get a character to max level. So I have a more permanent build to work with, rather then trying to excel (lol) with a partial build I happen to have as a level up.
But hey i guess if its tottaly ruining peoples play throughs make it easier just sucks to loose any sense of fear in the enermies we face - it harms the story, no threat, less impact, it looses you momentum in how the story plays out...
Advice: Use stealth more, frankly battle cloak is your edge with a well timed torp power up. Same goes for Klingons.
W.B. Yeats
Lifer since beta its never been so good! So now can everyone chill this game is going in the right direction :P
This a thousand times over... we face no real threat from Level 1-49... even on Advanced or Elite mode... then these players are released into end game content with little to no idea on how to improve their build, how to manage power, etc... and the the rage ensues regarding "lets make Elite STF's gated by equipment, experience (10x normal), <insert other idea here>...
All don't address the underling problems...
1) There is no reason or incentive to team ... ever ... until you are forced to in STF's
2) PVE NPC Content is TOO EASY, there is literally no challenge that must be overcome any more. This gives these players a false sense of their abilities...(I am not noob bashing... if you are never presented with a challenge, you would think (and rightfully so) that you are decent, if not excellent player... why would you think anything less).
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
you could join up with a good player and let him complete the mission for u. then im sure u can get to afking in pugs.
I disagree with the OP, that the Elachi missions are too hard and need to be toned down.
Let me first point out that I am a solo player. Do not do SFTs or PvP.
I enjoy the story mission, for the story content and read the dialogue.
This thread is not intended as an insult to anyone, if you come away form this with that impression, my apologies that was not my intent.
That said, having too many easy missions is in my opinion is boring. Where is the fun in going into a mission that you outclass every NPC on the map? Or, go in, blast through the objectives (literally) and move on. Do you not feel a sense of accomplishment with this?
Or, are you just going through the motions to get max level and start end game?
For those that say the later Romulan mission are too hard. I would like to say that the early mission are too easy. In Helix, your T1 T'Liss warbird goes up against a Mogai. In fact Torvan even says that a Tal Shiar battleship is entering the system.
Torvan then suggests you cloak to get an advantage... OK. You swing around while cloaked, ready your weapons and abilities... and decloak with guns blazing and rip a shield facing down and bring the hull down to 50% in the first salvo. Is this not over the top?
Then in Gasko Blues, you go up against a D'deridex battle cruiser, again still in the same T1 T'Liss.
So now there are two missions that a T1 ships easily defeats T3 and T4 ships.
How many of you have chuckled when you reach level 30 or 40 and you go into a mission and square off again a trio of T1 ships. What are the results... you blow them away.
So, why should the NPCs, especially in later missions, when you are supposed to be more experienced and better equipped, not be on par with you?
I'm just saying, if the early missions are easy because you are not skilled, or equipped. Then the later missions should be harder and/or more challenging because you have more skill, experience (as in knowledge of your opponents not your character's skill point total), and are better equipped.
I would also like to close with this, which I have posted on another thread, by finishing a mission in one shot without respawning, you do not get anything special. You do not get additional ECs, Skill Points or equipment.
About the only things you get are the personal satisfaction that you beat it with your skill, smarts and ingenuity. And the pride that you beat a challenge.
And here we get to my point. And no doubt the heart of my argument. Simply, I don't believe that the NPCs do get difficult reflective of the player, they just get difficult.
If I can go from full hull and shields to defeated in .0001 seconds, that is not my lack of skill, that is the enemy employing some massive shenanigans. I am sorry but no enemy should be able to one shot a player in story missions (and I have had multiple Mogai do this).
While I can agree with you that there is not really any acomplishment in completing a mission without needing to respawn. Having a player need to respawn (not to mention multiple times) should not be the goal of content. This is no more fun then rolling over enemies cause they are weaksauce.
Oh, and.... got pugs?
My character Tsin'xing
I am a little confused by this statement. Are you implying something negative regarding public queues?
While I have read of these "one shot" kills on the forums about Borg cubes, though not experienced it. I'll agree with you that this should be investigated and addressed.
But, if it is a legit power, then you should be aware of it and plan accordingly. How many powers do we get at higher levels that deal massive amounts of damage?
Example...
I have a level 50 Fed tac character. Flying in an Oddy TAC cruiser. Mark XI weapons, torp spread and the Isometric console. I go up against frigates, and unleash a spread and the iso blast, I can pop all three ships in a group at once.
Now, I know that its not exactly the same, but it comes close.
In the Crateris mission, while fighting the Elachi battleship at the end, an NPC comes over the broadcast and announces that it is employing a massive frontal assault weapon and to stay clear. So, taking that advice you stay behind it as much as possible, even when it does subspace hopping to get behind you, you use evasive maneuvers to get out of the way of the cone of death. So, in effect you are learning form your mistakes, planning accordingly, and developing tactics for later on in the game, no?
Your point on one shots is valid. But I would also like to point out that we as players get something close to that ability as well.
Agreed. It should not be the goal of content to keep doing it over and over. But, isn't it also fun and beneficial that a player take that respawn not as punishment, but as an incentive to adjust something.
Me personally, when I respawn in a mission, I don't look at it like the mission is broken. I look at it like what did I do wrong or didn't do.
Now I realize that most people do not think like this, and that's fine, to each their own.
But keeping the early mission easy with hints of what's to come so you can plan accordingly, is somewhat of the fun. And also there should be, as the Deferi would say, a balance between easy mission and hard missions.
again, here comes the problem with your example. We are not talking about level 50 players. We are talking about level 25-30 players. The damage output is much less, as are the resistances. and again. I am not talking about the Borg (which are again endgame). I am taking about Mogai who after LoR launched seem to now be able to suddenly rip shield facings off and attack the hull all in the blink of an eye. And this is with skill points allocated to Shield and Hull strength.
This is more of a point in us not seeing the same thing. On respawning, I don't mind it on occasions, nor when i can clearly see a "Why". Heck I recently redid "Night of the Comet" and tried to ignore the D7s and just work on annihilating the comet to see if I could do it. I could not, and quickly learned trying to was not the smart thing to do (2 d7s not a problem, 4 or more, big problem). And yes, I laughed about it.
But repeatedly getting destroyed 5-6 times is not fun. You don't learn and it makes the missions unnecessarly long.
I am all for balance. My point is, in certain things I don't see it. I don't see where the challenge scales with the player. And the fact that I have had many people say "yeah, the Romulans are hard, but the Cardassians are much easier". Tells me this is true.
The Cardassians (the next enemy you face in the Federation line, after the Romulans) shouldn't be easier then the species before. They should be progressively, while still doable, harder. This is where I think it is fair to look a some NPCs with in the story progression and see if maybe they are indeed too hard for where they player should be. Not run down on someone for daring to suggest easing things up. Or worse, accuse them of wanting to be AFKers.
So, pay to win folks. Or find a nice friend with an extra ship. Or crunch the numbers and care about stats and shinies.
All of this.
STO Forum member since before February 2010.
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I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
OK, I used my level 50 character as an example. If you want me to be more realistic how about this...
Level 35 Rom Sci. Mogai refit. Torp spread and Beam: Fire at Will. Taking on three frigate class ships, I can pretty much squash them in two passes.
I wasn't talking about the Borg either. I mentioned that I READ about the Borg one shot kills on the forums. I never said anything about fighting the Borg.
Which one was that? I don't remember ever coming up against a Tal Shiar Mogai do that to me in any of the RR storyline? No matter which ship I was flying. One D'deridex, yeah, I think in Tradecraft, but then again you are going up against an entire Tal shiar fleet, but that's neither her nor there...
Are you maybe referring to Mogai that might be in the Fed missions?
Those I cannot comment on, as I haven't played in the Fed storyline in a long while.
When I first ran through that mission, I must have died like three or four times trying to destroy the comet and disable the K7's.
But you know what, I learned my lesson. And here's another...
I did the atmosphere shuttle mission. When it is first given to you, it says that you need a shuttle to complete.
I did the WHOLE mission in a shuttle. Including the space combat. I must have died, I don't know I lost count. But i kept going, and I defeated everyone. There I learned two lessons... one was tactical, the other was Read the Full Question type of lesson. Because after the space combat is finished Tovan asks you are you ready to launch a shuttle. At that point I facepalmed my self...
On this I agree with you, partially. Yes, there are certain things that are not balanced.
But, using your example, the Romulans are more difficult, and should be. The Cardassian and the True Way were fairly straight forward. Nothing really hard in toe-to-toe fighting.
Should the Romulans be encountered at that point, depends. If memory servers, you are supposed to be a Commander and/or Captain by then. So you are flying a T3/4 ship and have Mk VI - VIII equipment. You don't think that that is enough?
No, you are right. It shouldn't be about berating someone, but, it shouldn't be generally stated that Elachi are hard, just for sake of saying it. If they weren't hard they wouldn't be worthy of fighting. If they were toned down then people would be like, "Oh yeah, the Elachi... push overs", would you want that instead?
We've both been in this game awhile, so we know what it is like at the early levels. What's the best type of energy weapon to use on so and so, or what shields should I be using to go up against the Borg. So there is a learning curve to the game.
Should someone respawn 5 or 6 times... I don't know. Why? Because I don't know how they are playing, what they're using, or maybe it is that the Elachi are overpowered.
So if that is the case, then why are there just as many people who say the opposite? If the Elachi are so overpowered, why are some others not respawning 5 or 6 times?
My complain though is that it pales in comparison after the story driven emotional missions of the Romulans it worked well like a good rpg then come the cardassians and it just gets totally irrelevant and I kinda lose a bit of interest especially when they have mission after mission of kill 3 waves of invaders etc. I kinda miss all the stuff with D'tan and D'vex and Tovan talking and all that. So to me its harder because Im not hanging on the edge of the seat anymore it just seems irrelevant to new romulus same way the klingons helping the federation bugs me.
I do agree, the rest of the missions now seem a bit outdated and not as gripping in content. The work on the Romulans story line was excellent.