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What would bring you into PvP?
ussultimatum
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What would bring you into PvP?
Previously I made a thread on why people PvP in this, and other games.
Feel free to peruse some of those answers: here.
It's pretty interesting, if I do say so myself.
This thread is aimed at players that do not PvP.
The simple part:
Why do you not PvP in this, or other MMOs?
What would bring you into PvP?
For example special gear, rep system, social interaction such as teaming or player run tournaments, competition, in game rewards (EC, XP, Dil, etc), special new modes of PvP that are not available now, etc.,?
The hard part:
While I encourage honesty, try not to flame/troll others or make insultingly derogatory comments on the reasons some do or do not pvp.
Previously I made a thread on why people PvP in this, and other games.
Feel free to peruse some of those answers: here.
It's pretty interesting, if I do say so myself.
This thread is aimed at players that do not PvP.
The simple part:
Why do you not PvP in this, or other MMOs?
What would bring you into PvP?
For example special gear, rep system, social interaction such as teaming or player run tournaments, competition, in game rewards (EC, XP, Dil, etc), special new modes of PvP that are not available now, etc.,?
The hard part:
While I encourage honesty, try not to flame/troll others or make insultingly derogatory comments on the reasons some do or do not pvp.
Post edited by ussultimatum on
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I know there's a Boot Camp, and that sounds like a fantastic idea, but my ability to commit to a fixed schedule is iffy. But definitely, a place/method to get some really instructive feedback from someone who's there to teach, and not just turn me into a gas cloud for lulz? I'd be down with that.
-Gen
I'm sure your DPS is great, but as Kahless said, "a petaQ with high system mastery is still a petaQ." (Well, he should have said it...!)
I don't handle losing well, nor do I handle failings in others particularly well. It almost inevitably results in some sort of epic blowout on my part. So I've learned the hard way not to put myself in a situation where I expose myself, and innocent bystanders, to that kind of risk.
In light of that fact, I honestly don't think there is anything that could bring me in. While I love the theorycrafting, conceptual spitballing, idea molding and unorthodox planning (if you're at all familiar with me it's fairly clear I'm someone who loves digging into mechanics and systems), I just don't handle the competition well. And it's not fair to others what almost always happens as a result.
Kerrat places a "kick me"sign on all of us, so don't feel bad about that. :P
OrganizedPvP channel is a good place to start. No schedule needed, and I'm sure you can find some players there who will even bring you onto teams and dish builds/strategy.
Wear a little kevlar.
I appreciate your honesty.
I think you'd be surprised to find there are quite a lot of players who tend to feel the similar (first paragraph).
I can only offer that you get used to it, and that one of the best parts of losing is coming back for revenge!!
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
In PvE you will always be able to challange the hardest stuff in second best gear. And in a variety of builds. Also it doesn't harm you, if other players get better or better equipped.
In PvP you compete with other players. If other players get better equippment, your chances dwindle. If you take your time with progression, you loose. Also people start to build specifically to exploit weaknesses of famous builds which starts a circle of respeccing.
This breeds a mindset, i don't like. I don't want to compete with other gamers with more time or more money or closer circles of friends for premades and otherwise loose the game. I am happy to takle the challanges the developers designed whenever i have the gear i need and with likeminded people who want us all to succed. It can even be far more challanging then usual STO missions, I don't need to win. But i won't partake in an armsrace against other players.
Now in games like this, where you can buy an advantage, it gets worse. PvE can be done without Lockbos-ships and the like, it has to be designed this way or players will leave as soon as they notice. But PvP ? It is not cryptics fault, if other players invest the money for more power. If PvP would ever be the mayor part of the game and PvE meaningless, people would instantly start to compete for the best build with real money. Well, at least far more then now. And that is the sort of competition i like even less, but have seen in some asian microtransaction PvP-centered MMOs.
Last thing is that a huge part of the playerbase consists of either bad losers or people boosting their ego by humiliating their opponent after a victory. While PvE can produce its own fair share of not so nice language (e.g. in eSTFs with pikers) those verbal abuses and cheating accusations hurled at each other in PvP-dedicated chat tend to be far worse.
So, i rarely PvP. I would do it once in a while, while bored. Or take on a challange. And i do like the tactical challange of real people once in a while. But at heart i am no PvPer and won't become one.
All the fuss about the Plasmonic Leach console showed again, how much many PvPer care about the options of their competitors and how nice they treat each other. Can't imagine a similar "discussion" about PvE equippment.
I might enjoy pvp if it was less about trivializing the game to raw numbers and more about enjoying the atmosphere and experience of the game. Unfortunately, that's a player issue, not really a mechanical one - and not really one that is unique to this game.
i pvp'ed quite a lot in 1 other game with some friends. it was great fun.
the one and only reason why i usually don't is simple: pvp players.
from my experience ( a couple of years and games), pvp'ers tend to be a little on the egocentric side. i understand it comes with trying to beat others rather than achieving something together as a primary motivation. there's nothing really wrong with it, it's just not me.
in addition, i do not see any reason why i would waste my free time in an atmosphere of constant adolescent bantering, refined by streaks of sexism and general nastiness. arguably pve communities have that too, but it's far easier avoidable and possible to have a complete gaming experience in a friendly environment.
edit: to answer the question asked in OP: a different attitude by players
The thing is, thats when the PM jackassery started. It wasn't enough to simply demolish someone who had no chance to begin with, but then so enthusiastically inform them that their kind was unwelcome in Your area. Charming individuals.
Tried again about a week later. Different people, same results, same attitude of obnoxious self-importance and elitism.
A couple days later, tried with a KDF toon instead. 3 for 3.
Came to the forums with an admittedly frustrated post that ultimately amounted to "WTH just happened?" The only responses I got were a couple of extremely prominent PVPers who seemed more interested in mocking newbies than anything else, as I've since learned is so common around here. The closest thing to help I got was 'yeah the first year or so is gonna be a lot of butthurt. Get used to it.'
Even discounting the additional time and effort required to pick up the additional skillset, why would I WANT to associate with those kinds of people? Its not the mechanics, its the attitude.
Yeah but I've got the really nice sign...
I forgot another point: concern about being "geared enough," MkXII rep sets, weapons with 3xAcc mods, I don't have all that stuff just so, and I'm sure that won't help my case any...
Gen
I'm sure your DPS is great, but as Kahless said, "a petaQ with high system mastery is still a petaQ." (Well, he should have said it...!)
Balance...but it is never going to happen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpfbJLLbczs
I've played lots of PvP in STO over the years; in fact I have two alts that both leveled up almost exclusively by PvP'ing. I have both fought the Fedball and been in the Fedball. Everything's fun until you hit VA. Instant slaughter is not what I consider fun. 15-0 is not what I consider fun. As others posted above, and to quote my favorite Captain, "I don't like to lose."
The other factor is there are frankly more enjoyable ways to earn Dilithium now than there were before.
I already PvP, but not necessarily because PvP is so great or awesome. I believe there's a certain breed of player that will tend toward PvP in any title that offers it, and I am one of those players. While I do not consider PvP in this game great by any means, I do still find it more challenging, by far, than the PvE. I suspect this is what tends to draw me toward PvP in most games, including this one.
Right now, PvP is too gimmicky, IMO. There's too many 'special consoles' increasingly available to all captains, there's too much extreme damage potential, and there's too much control (much of which extends from the previously mentioned consoles). These problems tend to exist in most every MMO with PvP. Take WoW for example--they had such an issue with spike/burst damage that they had to not only create an attribute exclusively designed to mitigate PvP damage, they also had to resort to hyperinflation of standard attributes through power escalation. This issue with damage and control is usually the result of PvE balance creating PvP imbalance, thus many games are forced to create PvP-exclusive attributes and/or PvP-exclusive DR mechanics to bridge the gap, but STO has largely neglected the problem.
I also believe there's a large barrier to entry in PvP. I find that I can build my captain, crew, and ship with PvP in mind, and still excel in PvE, whereas if I built my captain, crew, and ship with PvE in mind, I would miserably fail at PvP. The gear requirements are quite strict and very costly. Certain skill loadouts are virtually mandatory, limiting experimentation and diversity in many cases. Viable ship choices are relatively narrow, and costly at the higher end. By contrast, PvE is much less demanding in terms of gear and is more broad in what can be viable with regard to loadouts.
As well, PvP content is stale. There have been no significant expansions of PvP content in ages. The maps and scenarios are all years old, the game types are still minimal in variety, and there is no real PvP system in place. Using WoW as an example once again, here you have a variety of battleground maps and game types, you have persistent objective-based warzones, you have arenas, and you have a PvP progression system and ladder. STO has virtually none of these assets. This also leads to the issue of rewards.
There aren't enough incentives for PvP. The dilithium rewards are decent enough, but there needs to be more. If they insist on perpetuating their reputation-grind system, there ought to be a reputation system for PvP, granting access to items and equipment designed exclusively with PvP considerations in mind. This could easily help solve the above issue with regard to extreme damage and the pvp-exclusive stat for balance. The EC rewards should be upped as well, IMO, with greater variance between a loss and a win. Right now, you can get about 10k+ for a loss and 20k for a win. There should be ships, item sets, bridge officers, duty officers, costumes, and other equipment that are available only through PvP, just like there are these things that are only available through PvE.
In general, so long as PvP is not held to the same standard, and given the same consideration and attention as PvE, it will always be lacking, and uninteresting for players.
It's simple. A point. All I need to PvP is for there to be a point.
Territory control? Annoy the enemy? Honor points for major gear?
Why do I PvP in WoW? For better gear. And it really is fun. But without the point...I doubt I would bother as much Why Do I really want better gear?? So I can attack Orgrimmar/Stormwind/any enemy town, and cause a fuss. Like...you know...in a war situation! Territory control like in SFC3 campaigns would be perfect though. A dream come true.
The mere fact that PvP is currently dominated by the super-skilled, makes it very difficult to learn and enjoy for the less serious, or more PvE focused player.
For a game like STO, there is a distinct lack of information that is actually up-to-date. Sure we have the forums, but there are so many conflicting opinions as to what is good and what is bad, that I'm not sure which direction is up and down.
On a more serious note, getting me interested in PvP would revolve around adding in PvP gear, ala World of ********'s system. The primary reason for having PvP gear is to differentiate PvP from PvE. Let us say that I don't have any desire to farm STFs, but I do enjoy PvP, why should I be forced to play PvE to participate in PvP? Maybe I have more time to PvP because of my style of play, but not enough time for PvE, but you have the reverse. Your gear will be far better than mine, in such an instance. This also makes it so that, if I join an STF after having made no investment into PvE, I wont do more DPS than you, because I have top tier PvP gear.
I wouldn't want to see a Reputation system used for PvP, because that would kill my desire to participate. Unless they made it far easier to progress, it'd just make it tedious to actually gear up, which you don't WANT to do, because PvP is so rare as is. The best thing to do would be a store where you can purchase PvP items based on PvP marks that drop. You'd likely have Mark X, XI and XII gear at ever increasing prices, so that new players can easily purchase Mark X PvP gear, and those who have a large investment can work towards XII gear.
The biggest thing is that you need to introduce a new damage type, so that you have most of your damage and defenses revolving around "Vs Players" attributes. Otherwise you'll TRIBBLE off players who PvE, because the gear you get through PvP may be "better" somehow. You NEED to make the differentiation, or you risk enraging players even more.
Not saying all PvP'ers are that way, but those that do have said qualities tend to be PvP'ers.
If I willingly wanted that much abuse, I'd switch careers and become a telemarketer.
I don't know....how about some damn balance to the ships maybe? Should we just keep all escorts as "unstoppable vs larger ships" like it is now? I'm undecided on ground, but space pvp needs some help, maybe a combat overhaul.
I pvp in other mmos, but this one just isn't fun. The only reason I go into pvp here, when I do, is for the dilithium dailies. I get my 3/3 and that's it.
I like to immerse myself in the game and do episodes. PvP really breaks the immersion for me.
Oh, I don't mind getting defeated. In fact, that's much of the problem. I'd be inclined to help out my opponent by intentionally losing...
Well, to be fair you can be working 'with' other players against other players at the same time.
This pretty much sums up my opinion too. Even though i have pvped in STO, it's almost only with fleeties that i have known for years, and i know who are mature and don't act like a spoiled 5 year old.
From your sig I know you're one of the "l33t" e-peen bunch.
What's the matter? Did you guys run out of noobs to smash? I guess that makes you guys the winner, huh?
To the victor go the spoils: empty PvP queues. Bravo.
A gear reset (ie tier 13/14), reduced burst damage, and better logging (so you can see what killed you!).
As a fairly new 50 the gear gap is huge, many items were also much easier to come by in the past and for me now to obtain, blergh.
Burst damage can be tweaked to be stupid. Overloaded beam banks and the right execution of abilities results in far too much far fast - it's not very star trekkey!
On my eng cap in a fairly decently appointed excelsior, (mk 12 purple cov cap shields relevant here) some pesky little JHAS with carefully tweaked gear can drop my shields AND hull in about 3 seconds, if I'm running tac team, I'll last about 12 seconds
Fair enough that I can't kill him - though it would be nice if 8 beam arrays on a cruiser was least a slight deterrent - but I shouldn't be out of the fight that quickly.
It seems the only ships worth a damn in PVP are burst damage escorts and carriers.
Even in STO, we've seen the PVP crowd blasting ships and demanding they be changed to suit PVP performance alone. Never mind the PVE aspects, as those are 'silly RP stuff for carebears'.
Thanks, but I think I'll spend my very limited game time with quality players, not children looking for bragging rights.
While initially I was getting the snot beat out of me, I can promise you that you don't need the best equipment and the best ships to be competitive. I only just got omega t5 2 days ago and the t5 shield and engines that come with it, and I wont get t4 romulan passives until I log in sometime today. I used to pilot a nebula and before that a DSSV as a healer. So I have been at a disadvantage and have still been able to compete.
Teamwork is king in Arenas, even with pug groups, and a few keybinds to rally everyone to hit the same target or throw a heal can even the odds against a premade. When you are new, and not familiar with the things that kill you and help you kill in pvp, things are rough....but once you know the basics, ANYONE can win on any given day.
Finally, maybe its just me, but I don't see this pvp community everyone is so afraid to be slaughtered and insulted by. Yeah, you get your jerkwad every few matches that thinks his TRIBBLE is actually potpourri and feels its his civic duty to point out how awesome he thinks he is and how inferior you appear to be, but for the most part everyone in the opvp community and the top tier pvp fleets are courteous, helpful and are not afraid to toss out a gg at hte end of the match, or at least thank you for the match if it didn't go well for ya and it almost feels insulting to be told gg.
Reading everyone's thoughts, before I took the plunge I felt exactly the same way, now I feel depressed everytime I'm forced to do pve for reputation and I enthusiastically queue up for arena pvp everyday whether it be by myself, with my fleetmates, or with a premade. I think pvp gets a bad rap, perhaps from kerrat, or from previous mmo experiences....I sincerely hope everyone hears my words and maybe give a second chance to pvp.
True, the devs don't want it, and the players don't want it. Wishing for it will only bring disappointment.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
I don't PvP in STO because I think the game mechanics and especially the game balance is lacking. Also in this context the inflated prices on anything PvP related.
The second reason is bad documentation.
I don't feel like investing hours of my lifetime for asking around or browsing through PvP guides or 3rd party websites just to collect the basics.
And let's not even get into insider-knowledge and less known game mechanics. You have to be part of some elitist PvP clique to be really competitive.
So let me ask back: do the PvP'ers in STO really wonder why people don't PvP?
I find it quite obvious. It's too much of a knowledge game instead of mostly skill based.
Less obscure game mechanics. That means either changed mechanics or better (ingame) documentation (not very likely).
Less reliance on certain types of min-maxing, thus less reliance on obscenely priced gear.
Some system of skill indication or matchmaking or whatever to provide halfway fair matches.
You know, if PvP is fair, it's fun and more people engage in it.
If you get slaughtered over and over and over and over again, it's the opposite (not saying that's my case. It isn't).
Hope that helps.
For the record, I play LoL, WoT and Wargame, and I have played WoW PvP, Eve Online PvP and some shooters like CS, CS:S, UT, etc.
I'm content to run a few STFs with friends, and call it a day.