Future PvP worry, seriously, im worried.

devorasx · May 2013

Coming this grand patch with LoR im kinda having high hopes but too a single gigantic worry.

My main worry is the development and the dynamics of arena pvp, and in particular cloaking alpha strikes. With romulan BOFF`s having the Subterfuge and Operative trait, coming out of cloak with a BO followed by HY and a PSW so the target cant do anything, will be a guarenteed 1 shot kill, where there is no chance for team mates to react fast enough to save the helpless chap. If im not mistaken this is already happening in arena pvp, as to why many people are complaining with the current cloak mechanic and refuse to arena pvp.

I know this is a matter of adapting and putting forth new strategies but there is really no counterplay to such a devastating yet easy executed attack. Its not fun to play against something which you cannot react towards. This is currently favouring the klingons, and will even out when romulans gets put in for feds. But then comes another problem. All will be cloaked, so who will be suicidal to de-cloak first?

I dont know folks. Opinions, comments? Am i overeacting?

Unknown · May 2013

This content has been removed.

virusdancer · May 2013

Don't forget Remans can take that new trait that extends the duration of the decloak bonus.

virusdancer · May 2013

sophlogimo wrote: »

Photonic Shockwave has a range of 3 km. If your stealth detection rating is higher than 300, you should be able to see them coming.

300 SDR will give you a Perception of 5150.

Against Bort's standard Stealther (4975 Stealth, no skill/gear, 50 Aux); yes, you would be able to see them at 3.5km.

If they have 5000 Stealth, you'll see them as they hit the PSW.

If they have over 5000 Stealth (not sure any of my guys don't), you'll see them until after the PSW.

edit: Here's the Stealth values for three of my guys...

Alien Sci Ha'nom on Tribble: 5194.7 (64/15 Aux)

Romulan Tac Ha'feh on Tribble: 5309.2 (29/15 Aux)

Alien Sci Hegh'ta on Holodeck: 5038.4 (104/100 Aux)

naz4 · May 2013

sophlogimo wrote: »

Photonic Shockwave has a range of 3 km. If your stealth detection rating is higher than 300, you should be able to see them coming.

Also, usually you hear them buff up before they strike, and a TT already triggered along with other damage countermeasures usually works.

I'll get my fleet mate to do it to you and say the same again...lol

devorasx · May 2013

sophlogimo wrote: »

Photonic Shockwave has a range of 3 km. If your stealth detection rating is higher than 300, you should be able to see them coming.

Also, usually you hear them buff up before they strike, and a TT already triggered along with other damage countermeasures usually works.

True, but most good players will buff up at range, eat an aux battery and then swoop in for the kill. And only sci ships will have good enough detection to actually see a cloaked ship coming in from a significant safe distant to react in time.

abyssinain · May 2013

Suddenly bringing that old rusty by-gone era Nebula Class seems like a better and better idea.

Everyone get your decloaking grids ready, its time to go romulan hunting!

darkfader1988 · May 2013

devorasx wrote: »

Coming this grand patch with LoR im kinda having high hopes but too a single gigantic worry.

My main worry is the development and the dynamics of arena pvp, and in particular cloaking alpha strikes. With romulan BOFF`s having the Subterfuge and Operative trait, coming out of cloak with a BO followed by HY and a PSW so the target cant do anything, will be a guarenteed 1 shot kill, where there is no chance for team mates to react fast enough to save the helpless chap. If im not mistaken this is already happening in arena pvp, as to why many people are complaining with the current cloak mechanic and refuse to arena pvp.

I know this is a matter of adapting and putting forth new strategies but there is really no counterplay to such a devastating yet easy executed attack. Its not fun to play against something which you cannot react towards. This is currently favouring the klingons, and will even out when romulans gets put in for feds. But then comes another problem. All will be cloaked, so who will be suicidal to de-cloak first?

I dont know folks. Opinions, comments? Am i overeacting?

I dont share your opinion about it being a easy excecuted attack on good players or in a team 5v5 even.

A normal decloak alpha without shockwave can sometimes even be more nasty in a 5v5

Also, over the years shockwave stun has only been nerfed not buffed. You can get the stun down back to 1 second and the delay that is included with an alpha with bo's, torps etc is higher then the reponsive time you get to save yourself. People are just not willing to counter for it or invest in it (Skill tree wise, etC).

devorasx · May 2013

virusdancer wrote: »

300 SDR will give you a Perception of 5150.

Against Bort's standard Stealther (4975 Stealth, no skill/gear, 50 Aux); yes, you would be able to see them at 3.5km.

If they have 5000 Stealth, you'll see them as they hit the PSW.

If they have over 5000 Stealth (not sure any of my guys don't), you'll see them until after the PSW.

But does this factor in that your ship is at maximum aux or at max weapons power? It doesnt help to say you have that much SDR when your aux is so low you cant see them coming in.

travelingmaster · May 2013

Yes, even KDF players will have to adopt anti-cloak tactics with the advent of Romulans in PvP. If anything, I think having Romulans in the mix will liven things up a tad. Just as long as we don't get matches with both sides staying in cloak waiting for the other to blink, I think we'll be fine.

Even with the possible one-shot kill builds, most self-respecting players don't really use those. I find it's mostly the trollish A-holes that use those, because they care nothing for giving their opponent a chance to fight 'em off and make a challenge of it.

For example, I could run a build featuring PSW to compliment my HY3 quantums and BO2. . .but that would make things too easy. I like the thrill of there being a chance of TRIBBLE up my attack run and having to make a break for it or try to survive a dogfight. People who use cheap tactics that are nigh-impossible to defend against are just unsportsmanlike. . .and I don't think there are too many PvPers like that.

devorasx · May 2013

darkfader1988 wrote: »

I dont share your opinion about it being a easy excecuted attack on good players or in a team 5v5 even.

A normal decloak alpha without shockwave can sometimes even be more nasty in a 5v5

Also, over the years shockwave stun has only been nerfed not buffed. You can get the stun down back to 1 second and the delay that is included with an alpha with bo's, torps etc is higher then the reponsive time you get to save yourself. People are just not willing to counter for it or invest in it (Skill tree wise, etC).

Aye im not saying anything against that. What im saying its bloody hard to react and help your team mate against such an attack if 1, let alone 2 cloakers do the same to 1 ship alone. Thats pretty much a guarenteed kill. And you can keybind PSW to lets say BO, and you got a 1 sec stun to finish of the ship with a HY.

Im not saying its impossible, but sometimes these attacks happen so fast and so sudden that human reaction and reponsiveness isnt fast enough to process all in time for players to react fast enough. So the question will be if this is a warranted development in pvp.

virusdancer · May 2013

devorasx wrote: »

But does this factor in that your ship is at maximum aux or at max weapons power? It doesnt help to say you have that much SDR when your aux is so low you cant see them coming in.

It was Soph's number...the 300 SDR (Perception 5150).

I did edit my reply with the Stealth value of three of my guys.

My Snooper has the following Perception values (@125/100 Aux):

Base - 5325.4
EPtA1 - 5375.4
Sensor Scan - 5736.6
Sensor Scan + EPtA1 - 5786.6

Don't forget the stealthsight bonus from EPtA's going 30s with LoR as well. My Snooper's just in a Mirror Deep - no Nebby consoles/etc/etc.

Again, here's the Stealth values for three of my guys...

Alien Sci Ha'nom on Tribble: 5194.7 (64/15 Aux)

Romulan Tac Ha'feh on Tribble: 5309.2 (29/15 Aux)

Alien Sci Hegh'ta on Holodeck: 5038.4 (104/100 Aux)

(Perception - Stealth)/50 = distance in km that the Snooper can see the Sneaker.

edit: None of my Sneakers have any direct skill points in Stealth.

devorasx · May 2013

travelingmaster wrote: »

People who use cheap tactics that are nigh-impossible to defend against are just unsportsmanlike. . .and I don't think there are too many PvPers like that.

Most cloaking alphas would open their first attack with BO to get the shields down, then next PSW for the stun, (if they didnt keybind BO to PSW) and then set off the HY. So fast you almost need to be prescient to react in time.

BUT:

Thats the thing. There ARE tons of pvps who use this tactic and nothing else. No hard feelings and nothing against this great chap, but Thissler is an EXPERT at it, and I havent seen him do any tactic and strategy besides this (I mean comeon! He links most of his movies diplaying cloaking alphas!) And what makes matters worse is that people pick this up, they want payback and do the same against others cause its an easy and efficent way to get a kill. It was as easy and efficent as back in the starting months of STO where tacticals would run Target subsystem shields III, and people would die like flies. Why ignore a stratetgy which scores you kills? Cheap tatic? Sure. Efficient and gets the job done? Hell yes!

Unknown · May 2013

This content has been removed.

virusdancer · May 2013

sophlogimo wrote: »

Jem'Hadar Deflector, or the Romulan one?

Put Tachyon Detection Field on top of that. Equippable by any fed and fed-alligned ship if the account owns the T3 Nebula. Even the Ionized Gas sensor might have its uses, if only to indicate that "something is close".

Mk XI Jem. Btw, it's bugged and I should feel bad for using it...but I giggle like a schoolgirl SNB'ing off a BoP's buffs. The description shows a +1% and the stats will reflect that. Unslot/reslot it...and it gives +1.5% instead.

Did they ever fix the Rom/Rem Deflectors? Last I heard they were failing to buff Stealth...so I never bothered to pick one up for the Stealthsight.

Given that the Ha'nom is a Battle Cloaking Science Vessel (yep, it gets the Aux->SDR values of a Sci instead of a non-Sci...even though they're still kind of small) - the idea of the +Stealth/+Stealthsight deflector was something I was wondering about with a Fleet Ha'nom.

That Mirror Deep is only sporting 4x Mk XII Sensor Probes...the Fleet Ha'nom could add in another. The various other changes...yeah, I've been wondering about making a Sneaker-Snooper. Would require a bait ship though...

darkfader1988 · May 2013

devorasx wrote: »

Aye im not saying anything against that. What im saying its bloody hard to react and help your team mate against such an attack if 1, let alone 2 cloakers do the same to 1 ship alone. Thats pretty much a guarenteed kill. And you can keybind PSW to lets say BO, and you got a 1 sec stun to finish of the ship with a HY.

Im not saying its impossible, but sometimes these attacks happen so fast and so sudden that human reaction and reponsiveness isnt fast enough to process all in time for players to react fast enough. So the question will be if this is a warranted development in pvp.

Yet 2 cloakers in a premade 5v5 will get seriously risky because that will be a 5v3 most of the match though right? It is a risky business because if you cant make kills, and alot of varaibles in a match prevent that, you're cooked.

devorasx · May 2013

darkfader1988 wrote: »

Yet 2 cloakers in a premade 5v5 will get seriously risky because that will be a 5v3 most of the match though right? It is a risky business because if you cant make kills, and alot of varaibles in a match prevent that, you're cooked.

True, but we can make up alot of scenarios how a 5vs5 would turn out, but in this case with cloaking alphas im pretty sure the average pvp and pvp team would not react in time to save a friend or even himself, if 2 cloaking alpha ships decides to go hunting. There is absolutly no fun counterplay in it whatsoever.

Not all can be as leet as Pandas, TSI, Lag Ind, or other >insert Paul Atreides prescient skill< fleet.

virusdancer · May 2013

devorasx wrote: »

True, but we can make up alot of scenarios how a 5vs5 would turn out, but in this case with cloaking alphas im pretty sure the average pvp and pvp team would not react in time to save a friend or even himself, if 2 cloaking alpha ships decides to go hunting. There is absolutly no fun counterplay in it whatsoever.

Not all can be as leet as Pandas, TSI, Lag Ind, or other >insert Paul Atreides prescient skill< fleet.

Are you thinking along the lines of a group of five T'varo hitting up the queues and rolling PUGs? Maybe even a mix of T'varo, Dhelan, Mogai, and Ha'feh?

It's really trippy looking at the Ha'feh. It's a Patrol Escort that's Base40 instead of Base50 for subsystem power...but otherwise it's a Patrol Escort with a Battle Cloak and the Singularity abilities.

travelingmaster · May 2013

devorasx wrote: »

Most cloaking alphas would open their first attack with BO to get the shields down, then next PSW for the stun, (if they didnt keybind BO to PSW) and then set off the HY. So fast you almost need to be prescient to react in time.

BUT:

Thats the thing. There ARE tons of pvps who use this tactic and nothing else. No hard feelings and nothing against this great chap, but Thissler is an EXPERT at it, and I havent seen him do any tactic and strategy besides this (I mean comeon! He links most of his movies diplaying cloaking alphas!) And what makes matters worse is that people pick this up, they want payback and do the same against others cause its an easy and efficent way to get a kill. It was as easy and efficent as back in the starting months of STO where tacticals would run Target subsystem shields III, and people would die like flies. Why ignore a stratetgy which scores you kills? Cheap tatic? Sure. Efficient and gets the job done? Hell yes!

The thing is, it is possible to repel this attack. Pre-buffing is one, along with ensuring that there are as few gaps as possible in your defenses. I use the similar tactics as Thissler, using a combination of TB2 along with the BO2 and HY3 quantums. I don't deviate it from it much, because that's how I've specc'd my character, that's what it does best. My success rate is about 40-50% (meaning actually killing the player in a single run, not simply maiming them or having the shots bounce off). Against skilled players it often doesn't work because they either have high resistance against tractors and can turn themselves, or because they have high resistances in general and are therefore hard to kill with a single volley.

devorasx · May 2013

virusdancer wrote: »

Are you thinking along the lines of a group of five T'varo hitting up the queues and rolling PUGs? Maybe even a mix of T'varo, Dhelan, Mogai, and Ha'feh?

It's really trippy looking at the Ha'feh. It's a Patrol Escort that's Base40 instead of Base50 for subsystem power...but otherwise it's a Patrol Escort with a Battle Cloak and the Singularity abilities.

Thats an optional setup ofc against PUGs and a semi good premade. But looking at the Bogais possibility to run BO2+3 and then sing. overcharge to get 125 weps power is hilarious.

devorasx · May 2013

travelingmaster wrote: »

The thing is, it is possible to repel this attack. Pre-buffing is one, along with ensuring that there are as few gaps as possible in your defenses. I use the similar tactics as Thissler, using a combination of TB2 along with the BO2 and HY3 quantums. I don't deviate it from it much, because that's how I've specc'd my character, that's what it does best. My success rate is about 40-50% (meaning actually killing the player in a single run, not simply maiming them or having the shots bounce off). Against skilled players it often doesn't work because they either have high resistance against tractors and can turn themselves, or because they have high resistances in general and are therefore hard to kill with a single volley.

So what happens, when you're alone, you get stunned from a PSW3 and cant execute a single skill? sure you're prebuffed, but that sneaky cloaker(s) can see that and will wait for the buff to wear off and then strike in your false sense of security. And to make matters worse, is the fact that klinks and feds has access to romie and reman BOFFs that increases stealth strength, sometimes beyond stealth detection rates. Heck, today i was in Kerrat in my time ship, full aux and sensor scan and could not see a ship at 5km range. And the hostile ship afaik, wasnt even running high aux.

virusdancer · May 2013

Figured I'd add this to the thread as well (just a general thing, so to speak). The stats Archon posted for the 2pc sets (not sure if they've changed, I didn't see any - but if they have, let us know)...

archoncryptic wrote: »

Here are the current set bonus values.

Enhanced Projectile Efficiency Set (T'varo)
+10% Projectiles Damage
25% Cooldown Reduction for Projectiles

Enhanced Defensive Systems Set (Dhelan)
Increases Defense by up to 10 based on flight speed
+5 to Shield Power

Enhanced Weapon Systems Efficiency (Mogai)
25% Resistance to Weapon Power Drain (including from weapon fire)
+5 Weapon Power

Enhanced Maneuvering Systems (D'deridex)
+2 Turn Rate
+10 Engine Power

Note that these are all potentially subject to change at any time, etc. etc.

Don't have the stats, personally, for the consoles that make up those sets - but here are the "gists" for them.

What can be used in any Warbird if you've bought the Refit...

(T'varo) Console - Universal - Singularity Stabilizer: Resets your Singularity Lockout period, and provides extra Singularity Charge.

(Dhael) Console - Universal - Singularity Inverter: Absorbs incoming energy weapons, reducing damage taken and adding extra Singularity Charge.

(Valdore) Console - Universal - Shield Absorptive Frequency Generator: (Passive) Outgoing energy attacks have a chance to leech Shields from your target, and apply them to your own.

(D'ridthau) Console - Universal - Molecular Phase Inverter: Increases Defense, Damage Resistance, Speed and Turn Rate while also disabling ship collision. Can activate Cloak while Phased.

The following can only be used on the ship (base/refit/retrofit/fleet)...

(Haakona) Console - Universal - Haakona Separation: This console allows you to separate your Haakona into two separate ships. You may choose to pilot the Assault Warbird or the Guardian Warbird. This console may also be transferred for use on the Ha'apax Advanced Warbird and Fleet Ha'apax Advanced Warbird, if you own them.

(T'varo) Console - Universal - Plasma Destabilizer: Launches a massive Plasma torpedo at your target, dealing a great deal of damage over a large area and lowering the resistances of affected targets.

(Dhelan) Console - Universal - Sabotage Probe: Drains and eventually disables an enemy?s Weapons Subsystem while causing them to deal damage to a nearby ally. Will detonate if removed before expiring.

(Mogai) Console - Universal - Ionized Particle Beam: Can be activated at any time to deal damage to opponents, but damage is increased if target has been marked by this console. All Energy Weapons have a passive change to apply this mark, while the console is equipped.

(D'deridex) Console - Universal - Projected Singularity: Launches a mobile subspace tear that moves away from the front of your ship, dragging enemy ships in its wake before imploding to deal damage.

ussenterpisez · May 2013

Tbh none of the new ships can touch the BoP :P

virusdancer · May 2013

This is an edited version of something I posted in another thread:

virusdancer wrote: »

Fleet B'rel Retrofit

Weapons: 4/2
Hull: 24750
Shield Mod: 0.88
Crew: 30
Turn: 23
Devices: 2
Consoles: 3 - 4 - 3
Power (Base50): +15 Weapon
Abilities: Enhanced Battle Cloak, Warp Core

X, X, X, X
X, X, X
X, X
X, X

Fleet T'varo Retrofit

Weapons: 4/3
Hull: 29700
Shield Mod: 0.99
Crew: 150
Turn: 18
Devices: 2
Consoles: 4 - 3 - 3
Power (Base40): +10 Weapon, +5 Engine
Abilities: Romulan Enhanced Battle Cloak, Singularity Core, Singularity Abilities (Plasma Shockwave, Singularity Jump, Quantum Absorption, Warp Shadows, Energy Weapons: Singularity Overcharge)

X, X, X, X
X
X, X
X, X
X, X, X

There's also this...

Enhanced Projectile Efficiency Set (T'varo)
+10% Projectiles Damage
25% Cooldown Reduction for Projectiles

...which comes from having the Refit/Retrofit consoles:

Console - Universal - Singularity Stabilizer: Resets your Singularity Lockout period, and provides extra Singularity Charge.

Console - Universal - Plasma Destabilizer: Launches a massive Plasma torpedo at your target, dealing a great deal of damage over a large area and lowering the resistances of affected targets.

Figure folks that have flown BoPs should be able to see where each has the potential advantage...

...and should be able to see where they'd actually make a nifty tandem, imho.

gradstudent1 · May 2013

devorasx wrote: »

Coming this grand patch with LoR im kinda having high hopes but too a single gigantic worry.

My main worry is the development and the dynamics of arena pvp, and in particular cloaking alpha strikes. With romulan BOFF`s having the Subterfuge and Operative trait, coming out of cloak with a BO followed by HY and a PSW so the target cant do anything, will be a guarenteed 1 shot kill, where there is no chance for team mates to react fast enough to save the helpless chap. If im not mistaken this is already happening in arena pvp, as to why many people are complaining with the current cloak mechanic and refuse to arena pvp.

I know this is a matter of adapting and putting forth new strategies but there is really no counterplay to such a devastating yet easy executed attack. Its not fun to play against something which you cannot react towards. This is currently favouring the klingons, and will even out when romulans gets put in for feds. But then comes another problem. All will be cloaked, so who will be suicidal to de-cloak first?

I dont know folks. Opinions, comments? Am i overeacting?

Thanks for the post, Devoras. You might be interested in the following thread, which I posted last week or so. I raised some similar concerns:

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=651851

p2wsucks · May 2013

devorasx wrote: »

So what happens, when you're alone, you get stunned from a PSW3 and cant execute a single skill? sure you're prebuffed, but that sneaky cloaker(s) can see that and will wait for the buff to wear off and then strike in your false sense of security. And to make matters worse, is the fact that klinks and feds has access to romie and reman BOFFs that increases stealth strength, sometimes beyond stealth detection rates. Heck, today i was in Kerrat in my time ship, full aux and sensor scan and could not see a ship at 5km range. And the hostile ship afaik, wasnt even running high aux.

Use an aux2damp boff power, listen for the BO/PSW cues if it's a team w/that kind of alpha. Aux2damp will give stun immunity and decent kinetic resists. It has a decent cooldown too. Things like erratic piloting, dropping mines, cycling sensor scans/ewps, tbrs can be useful detecting approaching cloaked ships.

Most of those builds are squishy and can be death traps if they linger too long or hit w/decent sci debuffs. There's a decent wait time in between the alpha strikes and in an arena fight it really can handicap a team that isn't all hit and run raiders. A team of raiders has more than enough drawbacks in an arena fight.

I've avoided tribble, so I don't know everything that's on it. But, the Rommy ships may be vulnerable to TSSx b/c of the power tradeoff they have.

devorasx · May 2013

gradstudent1 wrote: »

Thanks for the post, Devoras. You might be interested in the following thread, which I posted last week or so. I raised some similar concerns:

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=651851

Ye i saw it and read it, but i doubt the Nebula will make it work or if bait tanks will work with the current game mechanics. Just way too much overhealing and most stuff will require a subnuke.

edit: Oh the tachyon detection grid is worthless. Its going to lag you out soooo bad, that when the screen returns to normal you're already been fragged.

wildweasal · May 2013

I can assure you they know about this and are figuring out a way to ...I gues for lack of a better word ....fix this

zarathos1978 · May 2013

I think the biggest problem with this will not be the "a bit hard to counter" point for the big guys (aka Pandas/TSI/Whoever) but the "common guy" who is going to try PvP and will get his TRIBBLE handed to them in even worse way then he is getting now when hitting the wall (pre/PUGmade).

It's going to turn people away from PvP bacuase it will make "casual* PvP" virtually impossible.

*casual - going into queues from time to time and not making PvP the main reason to play STO.

I doubt Cryptic cares, they do not care about PvP much and I doubt they worry. Decloaking Alpha will make all those Feds whinning for battlecloak and battlecruisers for Feds happy. And it will make PvE even easier. But it will most likely empty the queues to the level one can now see on cpt. and lower ranks.

devorasx · May 2013

p2wsucks wrote: »

Use an aux2damp boff power, listen for the BO/PSW cues if it's a team w/that kind of alpha. Aux2damp will give stun immunity and decent kinetic resists. It has a decent cooldown too. Things like erratic piloting, dropping mines, cycling sensor scans/ewps, tbrs can be useful detecting approaching cloaked ships.

Agreed wholehearly on this point. Maybe i am overreacting, or im just too lazy not to sacrifice precious BOFF slots for abilities like aux2damp etc.

shinzon2013 · May 2013

p2wsucks wrote: »

Use an aux2damp boff power, listen for the BO/PSW cues if it's a team w/that kind of alpha. Aux2damp will give stun immunity and decent kinetic resists. It has a decent cooldown too. Things like erratic piloting, dropping mines, cycling sensor scans/ewps, tbrs can be useful detecting approaching cloaked ships.

Most of those builds are squishy and can be death traps if they linger too long or hit w/decent sci debuffs. There's a decent wait time in between the alpha strikes and in an arena fight it really can handicap a team that isn't all hit and run raiders.

I agree that listening for the other players buffs is a valid tactic to preventing one shot kills...most of the time. But, in an arena, and especially in premade matches, it is very hard to single out the sound of one single ship buffing. There's just too much going on during the match. Maybe if you're pugging...

Also, depending on how good the raider is at the double-tap method or one-shot kill methods, then I would say there are some very effective team setups right now that will include one or two raiders and especially if those teams run multiple sci's.

Future PvP worry, seriously, im worried.

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