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refering to this post http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=4031619&postcount=12
I have to ask, does anybody else wonder why Cryptic are bothering with dx11 support if its not gonna improve the quality of the game?
dx11 support seems like a waste of time and money if the engine is so limited it cant deal with higher poly character models and some more detailed(see not so blurry) textures, I mean i get that alot of ppl who run these games can barely run the game as it is, but that leaves alot of us who dont buy our systems from walmart wondering why we are second class citzens.
I am NOT asking for something a dev has already said wont happen, just wondering if anybody else finds it strange that they are putting time and effort into something that from the linked comment above will not really be exploited in any meaningful way....wouldnt it be better to put that time/effort/money into other aspects of the game?
sorry if this offends anybody, I just would like to know what others think.
I have to ask, does anybody else wonder why Cryptic are bothering with dx11 support if its not gonna improve the quality of the game?
dx11 support seems like a waste of time and money if the engine is so limited it cant deal with higher poly character models and some more detailed(see not so blurry) textures, I mean i get that alot of ppl who run these games can barely run the game as it is, but that leaves alot of us who dont buy our systems from walmart wondering why we are second class citzens.
I am NOT asking for something a dev has already said wont happen, just wondering if anybody else finds it strange that they are putting time and effort into something that from the linked comment above will not really be exploited in any meaningful way....wouldnt it be better to put that time/effort/money into other aspects of the game?
sorry if this offends anybody, I just would like to know what others think.
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I get that it takes time and effort to create things, I have been on the sever/admin side of MMO's many times in the past(starting with ultima online...you probably have no idea what that is tho....before most peoples time...)
dx10 and 11 allow/enable alot of things that dx9 cant, but, if they are most worried about the lowest common demonintor, thats dx9 hardware, or even intels dx10/11 hardware(horrible drivers and hardware), I know they can barly run games like this, I have seen them in action all to offten, if thats part of why the models for example are somewhat blocky(i can see flat serfaces on my chars legs as i stand/walk, they even reflect light as if they where flat...) then whats the point of them moving to dx11 and putting time/effort/money into it?
some disadvantages of dx9 are things like the fact it has to mirror everything from your videocards memory in system memory, and that sucks for xp users who enlarge are still using 2gb or less of system memory(Ram), also under 32bit windows videocard memory is counted to the total system memory, so you really cant have 3gb system ram if you have a 1gb videocard....
Now IF they where going to add tesselation to the dx11 updates and use that to smooththings out, that would be great, and would make sense, as thats a good use of tesselation (small scale not over done like in heaven and some other demos), but i get the impression thats not even something being considered, that they are working on dx11 just so they can say they have dx11 support(possibly in the hopes that it will get people to download the game expecting something amazing in the gfx dept)
I know it sounds like Im mad/upset, really im not, I just wonder why they are bothering if he only systems running dx11 mode will almost certenly be those of us who could run the game at higher detail then the game engine can support. (hell i tested the other day and amd's a6 and a8 apu's can run this game maxed out with their onboard video at 1600x900@60+ fps....thats AMD onboard video on a game developed for nvidia mind you.....)
Why Is My Bumb Pointy?
this is what Im talking about, sorry i didnt highlight the lines but anybody can see the bumb on my char and the back of the calf are flat and pointy....this is quite noticeable when moving and watching others move(At least for me)
another example of over similified "round" objects are the stools in exchange on ds9....why not just make them triangles or squares....
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22439362/StarTrekOnline/stools.jpg
again, I get why they designed stuff low poly in the first place, its the same reason WoW and the like keep their detail on low settings as low as they can, to allow people who bought their system at walmart years ago to play and keep paying(those people would be better off investing in upgrades for their system honestly...)
now, as to the multi core use, they are targeting systems that can barely run this game, most of them will be at best dual cores, so I doubt dx11 multi core will help them(specially seeing that most of those will be using dx9 cards)
what i keep coming back to is the impression that they like most mmo makers only really worry about the lowest common denominator, (lowest commonly used hardware config running the game), and I get it, thats koo, but I dont get why they bother with dx11 when is not to likely somebody is going to run the game in dx11 mode if there systems among their target audience.(LCD)
sorry if im not being as clear about what i mean as i could be, I guess it comes down to it seeming like they are wasting alot of effort they could just put into adding content if they arent going to improve the gfx quality along with adding dx11(give us dx11 enabled users some reason to run dx11 mode)
oh also note: using the 12.2 RC drivers dx11 mode works fine without any black textures at least for me (ran around ESD and some other places, seems it gives same perf and quality as dx9 mode with the RC drivers)
note: the above is incase any of the dev's see this and want to test the next up-coming driver with their current dx11 code.
if that was an issue, they would have needed dx10 and 11 versions of the game for people with modern systems to be able to play.
A small part may get duplicated, but certainly not the whole thing.
Also, I have yet to see a dx11 game take better advantage of my cpu compated to dx9 renderer(not saying it isnt possible, but dont expect much, if anything)
I think the devs said they were adding dx11 so they had the OPTION to add DX11 effects once they had the dx11 well polished and running smoothly. Plus dx11 is a more efficient renderer than dx9 when highly optimized and properly coded (im sure thats tricky)
but why is it needed if they arent going to use that extra perf to add detail?
I have tested STO on 2 laptops recently, amd A6 and A8 units, both ran dx9 and 11 fine, smooth as you could ask even of a high end system, thats at 1600x900 (lappy's max res) using the APU's build in gpu.
so the question is, why bother, why waste time and resources to implement something to improve performance if your not going to put that added perf to some meaningful use like upping the poly count (via better models or just using some mild tesselation)
I do get what your saying, but theres really no point in doing what you suggest if they are just going to leave the game "as is" visually, because it runs perfectly even on low end APU video(been told it even runs fine on a friends amd A4 based laptop he got for his daughter)
dosnt matter, they target lowest common denominator meaning dx9 hardware, so why code for dx11 when the market your most worried about use dx9 or at best 10 hardware?
and yes dx9 copies/duplicates whats stored in video ram to system ram.
heres a good explination of why your wrong.
http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1323113&postcount=1
read it and its links, dx9 requires duplication of application resources to system memory(meaning it dosnt have to have textures and such stored both in video memory and in system memory. dx9 and the older wddm require this.
but again, whats the point of moving to dx11 if dx9 systems are the LCD(lowest common denominator) and the game runs fine in dx9 on dx9/10/11 card as it?
again, seems like a waste if they arent gonna use the extra power/perf they gain to make the game look better.
ALso you are wrong on memory duplication, some techopwerup thread means nothing, and proves nothing.
They just arent in any kind of rush to do so and plan on smoothing out the dx11 renderer first making sure its fully compatible.
This is GTA IV dx9 study the photos carefully, the bottom of afterburner displays VRAM usage, which is around 730.
http://i44.tinypic.com/nntv5u.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/20fxn4i.jpg
Total system ram useage should be over 3 gb if vram duplication was true
we are talking about cryptic here arent we......the guys who have regular unsecduled down times during peek play hours due to lack of proper testing before putting patches into wide use, the guys who have pretty random "scheduled" patch schedule.....
sorry but i dont buy it, I really do think the ONLY reasion they are even working on dx11 is as a marketing ploy.
sure dx11 blows dx9 away perf wise on a decent modern system(check the [H] review) but if they arent going to use that perf to make the game look and feel better, theres no point.
their plan seems to be to get dx11 "support" out so they can entice people into downloading based on the "dx11 support", and it will work, alot of people will grab the game and some will even not notice its not a true dx11 title and that it looks the same in dx9 and 11 modes, if even 10% of those people put money into the game, cryptic has made money off what for all intents and prepossess is a pointless "feature"
if they arent gonna make proper use of dx11 to make the game better, that time, money and effort would be better spent fixing the plethera of bugs and flaws the game has now, rather then wasting resources on a pointless feature nobody is really gonna notice anyway.
and clearly you didnt read the artical or visit its sited links, I know the poster quite well, and he knows what hes talking about(and proves it with the links) dx9 requires resource duplication, its a fact, cant deal with it, to bad.
You want to belive your friend, even though those thread had zero PROOF!!!
I just gave you PROOF. Task manager and rivatuner is proof. You're friends opinion cause he's "smart" is not proof.
Believe what you want to believe. Im done trying to convince you.
There are 2 options developers can use DX11 for
1.) Use DX11 to improve performance flat out, with no changes, with the simple goal of improving performance.
2.) Use that performance gained from using DX11 to implement higher quality art assets, shader programs, and so forth.
So, it's up to them to decide if they want to use that performance to provide greater detail in the game, or not.
I do hope they chose the latter. I want them to take that performance and give us new features, better art assets, better textures, better shader programs using DirectCompute, Tessellation would be awesome, DX11 driver multithreading, all of it.
its a pipe dream, the dev that responded in my other thread effectively said we wont see any graphical improvements to the game, because it would take time and money to do it.
I would love to see some of the textures upped to even 1024x1024 (some that are clearly well below that) let alone 2048x2048, and tess could be used to smooth out the char models if they dont want to take the time to up the poly count of the current models and just offer the higher detail level or mode option.
but, again this isnt gonna happen, and I wasnt even asking for all models+textures to be updated(would think they would have high res versions on hand that they just down sampled/compressed, apparently not...)
Main things I would like to see get higher poly models are Char models and items, textures for players and some main things like walls and control panels(and ship surfaces exct in space).
they could have even offered the ability to check a box and have the game/laucher download the optionals and as they put out updates, it downloads them, so it could be done as people have a little time or need to change projects for a few(trust me, I have worked in places doing work similar to this, you need a break every so often or you start going cross-eyed...) worst for me was repairing map errors in games and fixing server side scripts....had to take breaks every so often or I started to get psychotic :P
that said, at least one dev is very very very against the idea of improving the games detail levels.
thats why I wonder what the point of dx11 really is for them, when the games targeted at the lowest common denominator and already runs fine there, dx11 perf boost clearly wont be needed.....
Holy hell you just made my day. Thank you.
Installed 12.1 With hopes that it fixed the annoying black/missing textures. No joy on that one, let's hope the 12.2 Pre-Certified work for me.
EDIT:
Still not working in DX11 with ATI 12.2 Pre-Certified. Still have to turn "Lighting Quality" to "Low" for black/missing textures to go away and there's no way I'm doing that... lol. Oh well.
I'm running the beta currently, and am finding a marked improvement in overall performance on my system.
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