Yep, everything worked except the the main plot.
And I mean everything, from the marriage, data, the ship battles. Everything worked except Picard and Shinzon.
Seriously ... why do you guys seem to dislike it soooo much?
Nothing wrong with Nemesis. I liked it as much as any other Star Trek movie other than Miror Universe ones. But, then again I hated all the MU Trek, ever. And time-travel episodes, but to a lesser extent.
Lol, hadnt seen that before. Great review and spot on.
Also agree, Shinzon was a crappy villain for Picard, who should've had more of an intellectual opponent (well, it was his clone but I guess the smarts didnt transfer...)
Enh, the whole thing was sloppy. The only good TNG movie was First Contact, which admittedly wasnt very classic "trek" but was still a very good movie in it's own right.
IMO the biggest issue with Nemesis, is Shinzon. The ships were cool, the battles were cool, the story was alright (the cloning stuff was silly). But Shinzon doesn't come across as a leader, he comes off as a pissy emo teenager. Not a worthy villain imo.
I felt he was one of the worst Star Trek villains, I like the actor...however he was not suited for the role at all.
nemesis had so much potential. but failed in parts. the whole clone thing and the remans was stupid. a story regarding sela would have been better.
personally I would have rather like to have seen a film set in the dominion war maybe with tng/ds9 characters. or something with tng/voyager characters taking on an undine threat. would have been better than a dodgy picard clone leading the rse and wanting to blow up earth.
I felt he was one of the worst Star Trek villains, I like the actor...however he was not suited for the role at all.
He was almost but not quite as bad as Malcolm McDowell as Billy Idol as an El-Aurian psychopath. But at least Mally McIdol had a gun you could gangsta style and still see through the sights and a readily-portable superweapon that could destroy an entire solar system. Shinzon just had his destroy-all-life one-shot-wonder that we never really got to see in action.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
Tad (From Props): "I got this smashing deal on a bunch of old KISS costumes, can we work those in?"
I was laughing my TRIBBLE off through your entire post, but this bit brought out the special sort of OMG I Can't Breathe laughter I usually reserve for Top Gear's antics.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
IMO the biggest issue with Nemesis, is Shinzon. The ships were cool, the battles were cool, the story was alright (the cloning stuff was silly). But Shinzon doesn't come across as a leader, he comes off as a pissy emo teenager. Not a worthy villain imo.
Fully agreed.
Would've rather seen Patrick Stewart hold 2 roles for the movie, with a "clone" of Picard basically acting as a mirrored version of the real Picard. Not the savage, "kill your leader to increase in rank"-type mirror, but the less pragmatic, less diplomatic Picard. We know Picard himself used to be somewhat of a renegade, getting mixed up in fights with Nausicaans among others. So the potential for violence is certainly there.
Tom Hardy has grown to become a really good actor, but he was totally miscast for the role of Shinzon. Furthermore, the plot itself didn't seem very logical.
A lone Human-clone, acting with a small group of Remans and a handful of Romulans, managed to secretly construct a massive warship (larger and more advanced than anything the Romulans had), as well as managing to construct a weapon to wipe out the entire Romulan Senate.
Nemesis is hated FOR the death of our beloved android, even though he was backed up reinstarnated for STO as the proper captain of the E its still a loss we feel deeply.
A lone Human-clone, acting with a small group of Remans and a handful of Romulans, managed to secretly construct a massive warship (larger and more advanced than anything the Romulans had), as well as managing to construct a weapon to wipe out the entire Romulan Senate.
You're assuming it was done in secret. Shinzon had proven himself to be a great general. I'm sure he was given plenty of resources to do with as he wished.
You need to remember that Romulans are based off of Romans - and in Rome the Generals were revered. Shinzon is very much like Julius Caesar. He got control of the army and then used it to get control of the Senate and declare himself Emperor. But in Shinzon's case it was the navy - and he assassinated all the Senators. Shinzon even had a "malady" like Caesar.
And the Romulans were behind him. They wanted to attack the Federation, and Shinzon was preaching war. But Shinzon lost them due to his private lust over Picard. Direct Bloodlust isn't the Romulan way. That's a Klingon trait.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
You are kidding right lol. . . They are personal views as is mine I find anything pre 2009 enjoyable. . . You my friend are a troll plain and simple now go back to your hole
IMO the biggest issue with Nemesis, is Shinzon. The ships were cool, the battles were cool, the story was alright (the cloning stuff was silly). But Shinzon doesn't come across as a leader, he comes off as a pissy emo teenager. Not a worthy villain imo.
Yup.
Shinzon had the potential to be a great villain, but the characterization was way off-tone and his motivations didn't always make enough sense to justify his actions, especially the part about going after Earth.
Tom Hardy was game. Too bad his script didn't measure up. In a way, he had the opposite problem from Ru'afo: Insurrection's baddie had logical motives, but his portrayal gave him no real personality. Unless you count scenery-chewing. Ru'afo's "nooooo!" rivals Darth Vader's.
Aside from Shinzon, Nemesis is alright, but an exercise in missed opportunities. Those bother me more than the real mistakes sometimes. A few off the top of my head:
1) B4 could've just been Lore with a memory wipe and he would've served the same purpose. Whatever effort Shinzon's people put into tracking down B4 and scattering his remains around for the Enterprise to find, certainly breaking Lore's components out of Daystrom or wherever they ended up couldn't be much harder. Right?
2) That Federation fleet should've rode to the rescue instead of the Romulans. Then we would've had a Wolf 359-level conflagration at the end, concluding with everyone else destroyed/disabled and the Enterprise left alone to make the last-ditch effort. That amps up the power of Shinzon and the Scimitar and the Thalaron threat. Potentially a better use of Janeway's cameo, too.
3) Troi's character arc should've been given largely to Donatra instead, with the latter ending up dead. That level of malice on behalf of Shinzon would've made more sense applied against a Romulan than just some random Starfleet counsellor who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Troi could've then "felt" Donatra's end happen, which still gives her that hero moment during the battle.
4) At the very least, Shinzon should've laughed himself to death after Picard impaled him on the broken beam, mirroring Picard's own laughter at the sight of his own impalement by the Nausicaan in TNG's Tapestry. I love little callbacks like that.
...and this has been "Coulda Shoulda Woulda" with Del. Thanks for playing!
You are kidding right lol. . . They are personal views as is mine I find anything pre 2009 enjoyable. . . You my friend are a troll plain and simple now go back to your hole
Lemme get this straight...you're the one who said this:
the only thing really wrong with Nemesis is the TALKING...
#1 the tea-party between Picard and Shinzon... BORING, sure it adds needed story background to the Villain... but that could have been done differently / shorter / less boring / bad boring scene
#2 Shinzon wanting to talk to Picard in his ready room as hologram... in the middle of the battle... that whole scene just KILLS the flow of the most important part of this Movie (and i still don't get how he could technically do that anyway... hologram without any holoprojector? not even a mobile emitter?... come on... Kirk and Khan never needed to be in the same room, why was this needed here? *meh*),
huge action scene and then... oh lets sit down and talk before we keep shooting at each other.
I'm sure your guys need a Bio Break too after all this excitement... i'm sure nobody will come up with a last ditch effort to win while we talk, right?...
Oh and that whole Mental **** scene of Troy... that was just horrible, from every point of view.
there are a million other small points that i could point out that were cheesy or uncanny (B-4... rly? another Soong Android?) but the talking scenes really kills the flow of the movie, and you just don't do that to your movie audience.
If Star Trek 2009 proofed one thing, than that the flow of a Movie is more important for rewatchability AND first impression than having every detail / motivation of a character explained in obsessive detail.
Other than that Nemesis and Star Trek 2009 are practically identical Movies.
Pi**ed off Romulan-ish Miner gets HUGE Ship in some unexplained way and fights Enterprise in Revenge and wants to destroy Earth for no other reason than that the Movie Viewer is from Earth...
It was good movie, would have been better if they made it longer and change the story line a bit. To me it was to short since it is also the last TNG movie.
It was good movie, would have been better if they made it longer and change the story line a bit. To me it was to short since it is also the last TNG movie.
Having Picard and Data facing the same dilemma was a bit much. They did have a base story board in place for a follow-up movie but, since Nemesis flopped, it was scrapped.
the only thing really wrong with Nemesis is the TALKING...
#1 the tea-party between Picard and Shinzon... BORING, sure it adds needed story background to the Villain... but that could have been done differently / shorter / less boring / bad boring scene
#2 Shinzon wanting to talk to Picard in his ready room as hologram... in the middle of the battle... that whole scene just KILLS the flow of the most important part of this Movie (and i still don't get how he could technically do that anyway... hologram without any holoprojector? not even a mobile emitter?... come on... Kirk and Khan never needed to be in the same room, why was this needed here? *meh*),
huge action scene and then... oh lets sit down and talk before we keep shooting at each other.
I'm sure your guys need a Bio Break too after all this excitement... i'm sure nobody will come up with a last ditch effort to win while we talk, right?...
Oh and that whole Mental **** scene of Troy... that was just horrible, from every point of view.
there are a million other small points that i could point out that were cheesy or uncanny (B-4... rly? another Soong Android?) but the talking scenes really kills the flow of the movie, and you just don't do that to your movie audience.
If Star Trek 2009 proofed one thing, than that the flow of a Movie is more important for rewatchability AND first impression than having every detail / motivation of a character explained in obsessive detail.
Other than that Nemesis and Star Trek 2009 are practically identical Movies.
Pi**ed off Romulan-ish Miner gets HUGE Ship in some unexplained way and fights Enterprise in Revenge and wants to destroy Earth for no other reason than that the Movie Viewer is from Earth...
Having Picard and Data facing the same dilemma was a bit much. They did have a base story board in place for a follow-up movie but, since Nemesis flopped, it was scrapped.
Yeah I read about that, honest they should do another movie just so they can do it properly and give the TNG a better send off which also can lead to a new tv series with a new crew taking over the Enterprise E.
Yeah I read about that, honest they should do another movie just so they can do it properly and give the TNG a better send off which also can lead to a new tv series with a new crew taking over the Enterprise E.
I would love to see the Ent E on tv didn't get enuff screen time to me
Right. Because "Spock's Brain" and "Assignment: Earth" were way better than "The Best of Both Worlds" and "In the Pale Moonlight."
Do with Spock's Brain whatever you want but don't knock Assignment: Earth, I will forever lament that they didn't make the planned show.
FKA K-Tar, grumpy Klingon/El-Aurian hybrid. Now assimilated by PWE.
Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
IMO the biggest issue with Nemesis, is Shinzon. The ships were cool, the battles were cool, the story was alright (the cloning stuff was silly). But Shinzon doesn't come across as a leader, he comes off as a pissy emo teenager. Not a worthy villain imo.
It's all the more depressing when you realize that the plot makes more sense, is more connected to the Next Gen TV series, and is more compelling if you put Sela in the lead antagonist role.
I love the part where neither Picard or Data can foretell the pitfalls of flying through an area of space that they knew interferes with long range communications.
Nemesis is hated FOR the death of our beloved android, even though he was backed up reinstarnated for STO as the proper captain of the E its still a loss we feel deeply.
Oh, please. Nemesis was -never- the permanent death of Data. They gave us a new data-body and even copied his matrix in the movie. The "Oooh, maybe data will be back" moment at the end was just another of the many, many things they deliberately ripped off from Wrath of Khan.
Data's sacrifice was meaningless at the start. Everybody I talked to that walked out of that movie knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that he'd be back in the next movie. Ironically he wasn't, because the next movie never happened, because this one was -awful-, but I digress.
the only thing really wrong with Nemesis is the TALKING...
If Star Trek 2009 proofed one thing, than that the flow of a Movie is more important for rewatchability AND first impression than having every detail / motivation of a character explained in obsessive detail.
Other than that Nemesis and Star Trek 2009 are practically identical Movies.
Pi**ed off Romulan-ish Miner gets HUGE Ship in some unexplained way and fights Enterprise in Revenge and wants to destroy Earth for no other reason than that the Movie Viewer is from Earth...
Lol star trek 2009 better becuase flow, to be honest while I respect your opinion, that movie also had problem with flow in being that it was so quick at time so unrealistically so that if you blinked you'd miss most of the scenes, the lack of attention to detail killed the movie for me. If i was given the resources they were given I could have made the same movie in my sleep, the story writing was some of the worst I've seen in a modern scifi movie,even worse then avatar, though not as bad as battleship(which really was just a action flick), ignoring straight to dvd B movies which for what ever reason are somewhat popular.
One person may find long dialog boring, I for one find it interesting when its in context to the situation, and develops characters, I don't want to watch another action flick in star trek.
I really don't see the whole argument about there was no close bond between data and picard in fact beside geordi, picard was the closest to him.
The argument of remens coming from no were is false becuase in ds9, they reference remens being used against the dominion.
At least nemesis was trying to be wait for it star trek, not some starwars/startrek crossover. Nemisis is one of my favorite star trek movies others being, wraith khan,first contact, and undiscovered country, star trek the motion picture.
I do agree somethings with shizon could have been done better and the movie overall would have likely proven its self more to the box office at the time. If they would have done sela instead omg it would have hit a homerun!!
At least nemesis was trying to be wait for it star trek, not some starwars/startrek crossover.
No, Nemesis was trying to be another First Contact-type of cash-cow that was using oogly-boogly aliens, the Picard-Data team (again), and pew-pew-pew to bring people to the theater.
Comments
And I mean everything, from the marriage, data, the ship battles. Everything worked except Picard and Shinzon.
Nothing wrong with Nemesis. I liked it as much as any other Star Trek movie other than Miror Universe ones. But, then again I hated all the MU Trek, ever. And time-travel episodes, but to a lesser extent.
Lol, hadnt seen that before. Great review and spot on.
Also agree, Shinzon was a crappy villain for Picard, who should've had more of an intellectual opponent (well, it was his clone but I guess the smarts didnt transfer...)
Enh, the whole thing was sloppy. The only good TNG movie was First Contact, which admittedly wasnt very classic "trek" but was still a very good movie in it's own right.
The doors, Mister Scott!
I felt he was one of the worst Star Trek villains, I like the actor...however he was not suited for the role at all.
personally I would have rather like to have seen a film set in the dominion war maybe with tng/ds9 characters. or something with tng/voyager characters taking on an undine threat. would have been better than a dodgy picard clone leading the rse and wanting to blow up earth.
He was almost but not quite as bad as Malcolm McDowell as Billy Idol as an El-Aurian psychopath. But at least Mally McIdol had a gun you could gangsta style and still see through the sights and a readily-portable superweapon that could destroy an entire solar system. Shinzon just had his destroy-all-life one-shot-wonder that we never really got to see in action.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
Yeah, sorry but the way he looks at Wesley is a big no no in my book.:eek:
I was laughing my TRIBBLE off through your entire post, but this bit brought out the special sort of OMG I Can't Breathe laughter I usually reserve for Top Gear's antics.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
Fully agreed.
Would've rather seen Patrick Stewart hold 2 roles for the movie, with a "clone" of Picard basically acting as a mirrored version of the real Picard. Not the savage, "kill your leader to increase in rank"-type mirror, but the less pragmatic, less diplomatic Picard. We know Picard himself used to be somewhat of a renegade, getting mixed up in fights with Nausicaans among others. So the potential for violence is certainly there.
Tom Hardy has grown to become a really good actor, but he was totally miscast for the role of Shinzon. Furthermore, the plot itself didn't seem very logical.
A lone Human-clone, acting with a small group of Remans and a handful of Romulans, managed to secretly construct a massive warship (larger and more advanced than anything the Romulans had), as well as managing to construct a weapon to wipe out the entire Romulan Senate.
You need to remember that Romulans are based off of Romans - and in Rome the Generals were revered. Shinzon is very much like Julius Caesar. He got control of the army and then used it to get control of the Senate and declare himself Emperor. But in Shinzon's case it was the navy - and he assassinated all the Senators. Shinzon even had a "malady" like Caesar.
And the Romulans were behind him. They wanted to attack the Federation, and Shinzon was preaching war. But Shinzon lost them due to his private lust over Picard. Direct Bloodlust isn't the Romulan way. That's a Klingon trait.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=9484491&postcount=8
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=9484861&postcount=11
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=9485351&postcount=13
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=9485701&postcount=14
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=9488651&postcount=19
Nothing is wrong with it, really? LMAO
:rolleyes:
You are kidding right lol. . . They are personal views as is mine I find anything pre 2009 enjoyable. . . You my friend are a troll plain and simple now go back to your hole
Yup.
Shinzon had the potential to be a great villain, but the characterization was way off-tone and his motivations didn't always make enough sense to justify his actions, especially the part about going after Earth.
Tom Hardy was game. Too bad his script didn't measure up. In a way, he had the opposite problem from Ru'afo: Insurrection's baddie had logical motives, but his portrayal gave him no real personality. Unless you count scenery-chewing. Ru'afo's "nooooo!" rivals Darth Vader's.
Aside from Shinzon, Nemesis is alright, but an exercise in missed opportunities. Those bother me more than the real mistakes sometimes. A few off the top of my head:
1) B4 could've just been Lore with a memory wipe and he would've served the same purpose. Whatever effort Shinzon's people put into tracking down B4 and scattering his remains around for the Enterprise to find, certainly breaking Lore's components out of Daystrom or wherever they ended up couldn't be much harder. Right?
2) That Federation fleet should've rode to the rescue instead of the Romulans. Then we would've had a Wolf 359-level conflagration at the end, concluding with everyone else destroyed/disabled and the Enterprise left alone to make the last-ditch effort. That amps up the power of Shinzon and the Scimitar and the Thalaron threat. Potentially a better use of Janeway's cameo, too.
3) Troi's character arc should've been given largely to Donatra instead, with the latter ending up dead. That level of malice on behalf of Shinzon would've made more sense applied against a Romulan than just some random Starfleet counsellor who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Troi could've then "felt" Donatra's end happen, which still gives her that hero moment during the battle.
4) At the very least, Shinzon should've laughed himself to death after Picard impaled him on the broken beam, mirroring Picard's own laughter at the sight of his own impalement by the Nausicaan in TNG's Tapestry. I love little callbacks like that.
...and this has been "Coulda Shoulda Woulda" with Del. Thanks for playing!
...and this... ...and this... ...and this...
...but according to you, I'm the troll who's not respecting what you like.
God, I love irony...
:rolleyes:
#1 the tea-party between Picard and Shinzon... BORING, sure it adds needed story background to the Villain... but that could have been done differently / shorter / less boring / bad boring scene
#2 Shinzon wanting to talk to Picard in his ready room as hologram... in the middle of the battle... that whole scene just KILLS the flow of the most important part of this Movie (and i still don't get how he could technically do that anyway... hologram without any holoprojector? not even a mobile emitter?... come on... Kirk and Khan never needed to be in the same room, why was this needed here? *meh*),
huge action scene and then... oh lets sit down and talk before we keep shooting at each other.
I'm sure your guys need a Bio Break too after all this excitement... i'm sure nobody will come up with a last ditch effort to win while we talk, right?...
Oh and that whole Mental **** scene of Troy... that was just horrible, from every point of view.
there are a million other small points that i could point out that were cheesy or uncanny (B-4... rly? another Soong Android?) but the talking scenes really kills the flow of the movie, and you just don't do that to your movie audience.
If Star Trek 2009 proofed one thing, than that the flow of a Movie is more important for rewatchability AND first impression than having every detail / motivation of a character explained in obsessive detail.
Other than that Nemesis and Star Trek 2009 are practically identical Movies.
Pi**ed off Romulan-ish Miner gets HUGE Ship in some unexplained way and fights Enterprise in Revenge and wants to destroy Earth for no other reason than that the Movie Viewer is from Earth...
Having Picard and Data facing the same dilemma was a bit much. They did have a base story board in place for a follow-up movie but, since Nemesis flopped, it was scrapped.
Yeah I read about that, honest they should do another movie just so they can do it properly and give the TNG a better send off which also can lead to a new tv series with a new crew taking over the Enterprise E.
I would love to see the Ent E on tv didn't get enuff screen time to me
system Lord Baal is dead
Do with Spock's Brain whatever you want but don't knock Assignment: Earth, I will forever lament that they didn't make the planned show.
Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
It's all the more depressing when you realize that the plot makes more sense, is more connected to the Next Gen TV series, and is more compelling if you put Sela in the lead antagonist role.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Oh, please. Nemesis was -never- the permanent death of Data. They gave us a new data-body and even copied his matrix in the movie. The "Oooh, maybe data will be back" moment at the end was just another of the many, many things they deliberately ripped off from Wrath of Khan.
Data's sacrifice was meaningless at the start. Everybody I talked to that walked out of that movie knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that he'd be back in the next movie. Ironically he wasn't, because the next movie never happened, because this one was -awful-, but I digress.
Lol star trek 2009 better becuase flow, to be honest while I respect your opinion, that movie also had problem with flow in being that it was so quick at time so unrealistically so that if you blinked you'd miss most of the scenes, the lack of attention to detail killed the movie for me. If i was given the resources they were given I could have made the same movie in my sleep, the story writing was some of the worst I've seen in a modern scifi movie,even worse then avatar, though not as bad as battleship(which really was just a action flick), ignoring straight to dvd B movies which for what ever reason are somewhat popular.
One person may find long dialog boring, I for one find it interesting when its in context to the situation, and develops characters, I don't want to watch another action flick in star trek.
I really don't see the whole argument about there was no close bond between data and picard in fact beside geordi, picard was the closest to him.
The argument of remens coming from no were is false becuase in ds9, they reference remens being used against the dominion.
At least nemesis was trying to be wait for it star trek, not some starwars/startrek crossover. Nemisis is one of my favorite star trek movies others being, wraith khan,first contact, and undiscovered country, star trek the motion picture.
I do agree somethings with shizon could have been done better and the movie overall would have likely proven its self more to the box office at the time. If they would have done sela instead omg it would have hit a homerun!!