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Web game extras get Office of Fair Trading scrutiny

pointedearspointedears Member Posts: 0 Arc User
edited April 2013 in Ten Forward
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22109188

Saw this on BBC news and thought it was very appropriate to STO. I wonder if they are under investigation ?

Certainly one of the ways you can pay for Zen is by using your mobile/smartphone through text messages etc, I wonder if anyone has fallen into this trap ? do you feel pressured into buying zen ? it does raise a lot of questions about the whole Free to play model
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Post edited by pointedears on
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  • adon333adon333 Member Posts: 304
    edited April 2013
    In before inevitable fanboi attack and subsequent thread close lol.
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  • captainrevo1captainrevo1 Member Posts: 3,948 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    there are thousand of games so who knows who is being investigated or not, but it sounds more like its actually aimed at smartphone or web games.

    and im sorry but if any parent is setting up their child on any computer game with access to a credit card or bank which allows the child to buy unlimited amounts of stuff then that is solely on the the parent. why not just hand them a knife while they are at it.
  • pointedearspointedears Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    How is it fanboi attack ? ive played the game for 3 years. Im just posting a link to a factual article on bbc news which is relevant to all online games which charge for additional content.

    Just opening up discussion. No flaming or attacking intended.
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  • adon333adon333 Member Posts: 304
    edited April 2013
    How is it fanboi attack ? ive played the game for 3 years. Im just posting a link to a factual article on bbc news which is relevant to all online games which charge for additional content.

    Just opening up discussion. No flaming or attacking intended.

    I dont understand your question. Are you asking how any of YOUR statements could be construed as a contextual "fanboi attack"? I wasnt referring to you in particular, I was referring to the garnered responses which were sure to follow your observation/thread. Wasn't directing the statement towards anyone in particular. Least of all you the OP and proprietor of said statement completely unrelated to the incoming responses to which I was referring.
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  • mbomberdavidmbomberdavid Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    and im sorry but if any parent is setting up their child on any computer game with access to a credit card or bank which allows the child to buy unlimited amounts of stuff then that is solely on the the parent. why not just hand them a knife while they are at it.

    Scary thought.
  • khayuungkhayuung Member Posts: 1,876 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Well... If there are enough idiots to make pugs miserable, there are enough idiots who will be parents, too...


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  • pointedearspointedears Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    adon333 wrote: »
    I dont understand your question. Are you asking how any of YOUR statements could be construed as a contextual "fanboi attack"? I wasnt referring to you in particular, I was referring to the garnered responses which were sure to follow your observation/thread. Wasn't directing the statement towards anyone in particular. Least of all you the OP and proprietor of said statement completely unrelated to the incoming responses to which I was referring.

    Sorry for mis interpreting you. I understand the whole lockbox gambling issue is a very sore subject which I wont go into here. I just found the article interesting as there are similarities with STO and in game currency/virtual items.
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  • captainrevo1captainrevo1 Member Posts: 3,948 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I just found the article interesting as there are similarities with STO and in game currency/virtual items.

    The thing is though, its not really that dissimilar to anything on the internet. people can spend money downloading songs, films, games, go on amazon or play and buy almost anything at the click of a button.

    if you give a child the opportunity through negligence and dont teach them not to us it, then they will take advantage. they're kids and often dont know any better. if you as a child could walk into a toy store and could pick anything up you like at the click of a button you probably would. its still the parents job to make sure you dont.

    there are smartphone games that are aimed at kids. adults probably wont play them as they are too simplistic/childish , but they still offer the ability to spend huge amount of cash on them. now again its ultimately the parents responsibility but the question is should those games, that market themselves to kids, offer that kind of service? i dont know. thats why its being investigated.

    games like STO, LorT, TOR etc are aimed at everybody. they offer things in a similar way but kids are not their target audience. should these be investigated too. maybe, maybe not.

    now im not sure if the kids games are doing anything wrong or not, and I dont really believe games aimed at everyone are but if we start spreading it out to all games, then why not spread to to everything on the net? everything is at the tip of our fingers these days and children by their nature lack self control. give a child the means and they will exploit it. the solution is in the parents control.
  • frontline2042frontline2042 Member Posts: 219 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    won't apply because there's no "undue pressure" to buy in game currency. its targeted at apps that throw the money sign everywhere and severely impair gameplay if you don't pay. Plus UK investigation and US company, so PW/ cryptic are out of the jurisdiction.
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  • fraghul2000fraghul2000 Member Posts: 1,590 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Plus UK investigation and US company, so PW/ cryptic are out of the jurisdiction.

    Where do you get that assumption from? There are hundreds, if not thousands of examples of US companies being fined and prosecuted in Europe and vice versa. IIRC, Microsoft (a US company last time I checked), has racked up fines somewhere around 2 billion Euros in Europe, just from violating competition laws in the past 5 years alone...

    I really doubt they're targeting STO. When comparing the STO way of microtransactions, the basically unlimited access players who are "true" F2Pers have and their target audience to that of a lot of other web games or mobile apps, Cryptic really seems like a lamb amongst wolves.
  • tobar26thtobar26th Member Posts: 799 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Where do you get that assumption from? There are hundreds, if not thousands of examples of US companies being fined and prosecuted in Europe and vice versa. IIRC, Microsoft (a US company last time I checked), has racked up fines somewhere around 2 billion Euros in Europe, just from violating competition laws in the past 5 years alone...

    I really doubt they're targeting STO. When comparing the STO way of microtransactions, the basically unlimited access players who are "true" F2Pers have and their target audience to that of a lot of other web games or mobile apps, Cryptic really seems like a lamb amongst wolves.

    Agreed. if a US company is trading in foreign territories they also have to follow local law.


    Though as pointed out the article refers to web and mobile games. STO is neither.
  • sunfranckssunfrancks Member Posts: 3,925 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I doubt this would cover STO to be honest. Even STO isn't quite as bad as some of those web/mobile games that are out there right now.
    Now if the BBC were investigating gambling to underage minors, Cryptc/PWE as well as a host of other f2p games would be under scrutiny....

    Also the sales of goods act here in the UK supersedes the Cryptc/PWE TOS.
    Technically, anything Cryptic changes post sale, is covered by that act. Though I have not heard of anyone using it as of yet
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  • xantrisxantris Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Lockboxes are clear-cut gambling device and it's a matter of time before the government redefines online gambling to include it and then clamps down hard on them. It's only because its outside of the main public spectrum that they get away with it.
  • captainrevo1captainrevo1 Member Posts: 3,948 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    xantris wrote: »
    Lockboxes are clear-cut gambling device

    They are not clear cut at all. that is your opinion on it, nothing more at this stage. its debatable at best. maybe the debate needs to happen but you cant guarantee how it will be viewed.

    you put money in, you get something back. what comes out may or may not be what you want but you are guaranteed something.
  • squishkinsquishkin Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    xantris wrote: »
    Lockboxes are clear-cut gambling device and it's a matter of time before the government redefines online gambling to include it and then clamps down hard on them. It's only because its outside of the main public spectrum that they get away with it.

    I think this is neither likely nor particularly reasonable, as much as some people might complain bitterly over lockboxes. Almost all games (and certainly most computer games) comprise some combination of pseudo-random chance combined with skill. It's not 'gambling' to create a chance-based mechanism inside a game, even if that chance-based mechanism provides a reward. After all, nobody is arguing that drop tables are gambling, despite the fact that you perform an action and, by chance, obtain a reward.

    In the case of a lockbox, it is not like a lottery, where you purchase (with real money) a chance to obtain a prize based on the outcome of random chance. The causal outcome is disconnected. (In fact, the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act would seem to explicitly exclude things like PWE's lockboxes from the ambit of 'online gambling' under US law.)

    In the case of a lockbox, you must obtain zen- whether by real money or by effort- and then turn that into an in-game key, which you can then use to open an in-game box. But you do not need to pay real money for the key. It is only the "personal efforts of the participants in playing the game" which are really at stake here.

    Moreover, gambling requires the exchange of something for value, and game developers have consistently argued that these are "merely games, and that people who invest in them lose nothing of real value". How can it be gambling, if whether or not you win or lose you have nothing of value?

    In Korea, at any rate, where I imagine issues like PWE have larger play, the prosecutor suggested that the internet game is "not just a simple game anymore" when you can translate in-game currency and real-world currency simply and effectively. Easy in on-line poker; not so easy in STO.

    There's a fascinating article on the topic by Daniela Rosette in the University of Miami Business Law Review: The Application of Real World Rules to Banks in Online Games and Virtual Worlds, 16 U. Miami Bus. L. Rev. 279.
  • jam3s1701jam3s1701 Member Posts: 1,825 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Can we have this thread closed please
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  • dalolorndalolorn Member Posts: 3,655 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    won't apply because there's no "undue pressure" to buy in game currency. its targeted at apps that throw the money sign everywhere and severely impair gameplay if you don't pay.

    So you think TOR is going to be investigated? :P

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  • sudoku7sudoku7 Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    The thing is though, its not really that dissimilar to anything on the internet. people can spend money downloading songs, films, games, go on amazon or play and buy almost anything at the click of a button.

    if you give a child the opportunity through negligence and dont teach them not to us it, then they will take advantage. they're kids and often dont know any better. if you as a child could walk into a toy store and could pick anything up you like at the click of a button you probably would. its still the parents job to make sure you dont.

    there are smartphone games that are aimed at kids. adults probably wont play them as they are too simplistic/childish , but they still offer the ability to spend huge amount of cash on them. now again its ultimately the parents responsibility but the question is should those games, that market themselves to kids, offer that kind of service? i dont know. thats why its being investigated.

    games like STO, LorT, TOR etc are aimed at everybody. they offer things in a similar way but kids are not their target audience. should these be investigated too. maybe, maybe not.

    now im not sure if the kids games are doing anything wrong or not, and I dont really believe games aimed at everyone are but if we start spreading it out to all games, then why not spread to to everything on the net? everything is at the tip of our fingers these days and children by their nature lack self control. give a child the means and they will exploit it. the solution is in the parents control.

    Part of the problem is the ease of purchases with in-app purchasing on smartphones. The parent may have had few qualms about providing the credit card info to the Apple Store or Google Play without really realizing that cc info is now accessible to PURCHASE NOW to some games.

    It sucks, and it's the conflict of ease of purchase versus making sure the customer knows they're purchasing something.
  • xantrisxantris Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    They are not clear cut at all. that is your opinion on it, nothing more at this stage. its debatable at best. maybe the debate needs to happen but you cant guarantee how it will be viewed.

    you put money in, you get something back. what comes out may or may not be what you want but you are guaranteed something.

    Sorry, let me put it another way.

    They are a clear cut gambling device for anyone who isn't a moron. Nobody buys lockboxes for the trash loot they hand out as consolation prizes.

    A slot machine does the same thing when its pays out less than the pull price.
  • xantrisxantris Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    squishkin wrote: »
    I think this is neither likely nor particularly reasonable, as much as some people might complain bitterly over lockboxes. Almost all games (and certainly most computer games) comprise some combination of pseudo-random chance combined with skill. It's not 'gambling' to create a chance-based mechanism inside a game, even if that chance-based mechanism provides a reward. After all, nobody is arguing that drop tables are gambling, despite the fact that you perform an action and, by chance, obtain a reward.

    In the case of a lockbox, it is not like a lottery, where you purchase (with real money) a chance to obtain a prize based on the outcome of random chance. The causal outcome is disconnected. (In fact, the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act would seem to explicitly exclude things like PWE's lockboxes from the ambit of 'online gambling' under US law.)

    In the case of a lockbox, you must obtain zen- whether by real money or by effort- and then turn that into an in-game key, which you can then use to open an in-game box. But you do not need to pay real money for the key. It is only the "personal efforts of the participants in playing the game" which are really at stake here.

    Moreover, gambling requires the exchange of something for value, and game developers have consistently argued that these are "merely games, and that people who invest in them lose nothing of real value". How can it be gambling, if whether or not you win or lose you have nothing of value?


    You don't have to directly pay real money to gamble either. They give away "credit" on all sorts of stuff.

    I got a $25 credit from some online sports betting place just last week in the email. Didn't drop a dime.
  • sonulinu2sonulinu2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Do I feel undue pressure to pay real money to buy in game items or currency? You bet I do, but I have no excuse since I'm an adult. :P
  • captainrevo1captainrevo1 Member Posts: 3,948 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    xantris wrote: »
    Sorry, let me put it another way.

    They are a clear cut gambling device for anyone who isn't a moron. Nobody buys lockboxes for the trash loot they hand out as consolation prizes.

    A slot machine does the same thing when its pays out less than the pull price.

    I see, so you insult people who dont agree with your view as nothing more than morons? classy.

    and you are right, out of the countless thousands, not one single person has any interest in the other items because you dont like them.

    A slot machine does not guarantee you something every time, and the only thing you can win is money. its not the same thing as a lockbox no matter how much you think it is.
  • atatassaultatatassault Member Posts: 1,008 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    xantris wrote: »
    Lockboxes are clear-cut gambling device and it's a matter of time before the government redefines online gambling to include it and then clamps down hard on them. It's only because its outside of the main public spectrum that they get away with it.
    Gambling means you put money in against odds of you winning other peoples value or losing your value. The Lockboxes are not gambling, You put something in, and you always get something out.

    It doesn't matter if you think most of what you get from Lockboxes isn't worth it (which is debatable since the most common loot is a Half Doff Pack + min of 4 Lobi Crystals), you're not gambling.

    We KNOW, that you're going to get a lot of Doffs and 5 Lobi per box on average. There's a chance to get better stuff out of it, but the guaranteed minimum means you're trading value for value. Not betting value against more value or loss of value.
  • tribbleorlfltribbleorlfl Member Posts: 143 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Yeah, judging by the article, STO is not one of the games being investigated, nor should it be. Sure, the lockbox system and increased grinding are deserving of some criticism; Cryptic's refusal to post the odds of the lockboxes is especially troubling. However, STO's F2P model is at or near the top for the value non-sub players get. Think about it, there's precious little in this game that is behind a paywall, and what does require a sub or real money to obtain is not necessary to play the game to its fullest. Many of the features of a Gold Account can be unlocked by Silvers playing the game over time. All content is available to all players.

    Contrast that to the model many other games are taking where full content and features are restricted to paying players (cough, cough, OR).

    Mobile games appear to be especially egregious, such as the "Collectible Card Games" that are spreading in popularity. With those, you expend "energy" or "resources" each move you make, and after about 5 minutes of gameplay, you've exhausted your energy. Your only choice is to fork over $3-$5 to instantly recharge your energy or wait 2 hrs for it to recharge on its own.

    And our lockboxes have nothing on their "card packs." To get the best cards, you have to collect multiple versions of a rare card to "fuse" into the more powerful version of the card. It's tough enough getting one of these cards, but multiples? Also, they use "step" card paths; think of them as card packs within card packs. Each purchased step increases your chance of the rarest cards and decreases the chance at lower level cards. The whole thing reeks of a ponzi scheme.
  • pointedearspointedears Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    got to love how the thread was moved and title edited without informing me.
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  • pointedearspointedears Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    jam3s1701 wrote: »
    Can we have this thread closed please

    Not adult enough to have a mature conversation like everyone else in this thread ?

    Just to make it clear I did not say STO was being investigated I was merely asking if they had been approached by the OFT.

    After all zen is all too easy to buy from charging zen, heck you can even do it with a mobile.

    Whilst no pressure Is put on anyone to but zen, the in game announcements (which I know you can turn off) sure do throw it in your face no ?

    Are in game app purchases even lega;l when the game is advertised as FREE to play. Surely it should be Free to enter or free to open ?

    Note im not just talking about STO here. Yes the article is maybe more towards phone or ipad games, but whats the difference ?
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  • calaminthacalamintha Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    We KNOW, that you're going to get a lot of Doffs and 5 Lobi per box on average. There's a chance to get better stuff out of it, but the guaranteed minimum means you're trading value for value. Not betting value against more value or loss of value.

    That's the funny part. If someone makes a grab bag with a single prize of $1,000 and 999,999 prizes of a small pebble (valued $10 because they also sell them directly) they can claim that the average value of the definitely-not-lottery ticket is over $10 and that it's not gambling?
  • hevachhevach Member Posts: 2,777 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Blind purchases are not a new thing. Considering they're based on a carnival game that's existed for roughly 300 years (and like many such things probably predates surviving accounts) and remains common at carnivals and flea markets, was been adopted by fast food chains and cereal manufacturers decades ago, and is even a common form of property seizure (sale of locked storage unit contents, batch collection sales)... People assuming it's only a matter of time until the government steps in have been waiting a LOOOONG time, and probably have a lot longer to wait.
  • atatassaultatatassault Member Posts: 1,008 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    calamintha wrote: »
    That's the funny part. If someone makes a grab bag with a single prize of $1,000 and 999,999 prizes of a small pebble (valued $10 because they also sell them directly) they can claim that the average value of the definitely-not-lottery ticket is over $10 and that it's not gambling?
    Its not gambling. You're actually getting a better rate on the Lockboxes since 125 for what's probably going to be 4 Doffs is less than half of what Doff packs go for, 275 Zen.

    Lockboxes are like crackerjacks: You're going to get something desirable everytime, but there might also be something really cool in there.
  • quintarisquintaris Member Posts: 816 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Hasbro used to sell plastic minis for Dungeons & Dragons. You'd buy a box and it would have a certain number of figures. Some were common, some were not. Is it gambling to buy a box, hoping for a rare chase figure and getting a common that you have 20 of already?
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