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I keep plugging at how a Klingon Science ship...
oldkhemaraa
Member Posts: 1,039 Arc User
..would be laid out.
And no matter what I keep hitting pretty much the same lay out. The Starfleet faction has thier cruiser based Vesta.
Kdf version would be more of a light battle cruiser, almost a raptor.
so, right off if the Vesta has ia bunch of spiff basic systems so should the KDF soooooo............
The Tier-5 Technology Strike Cruiser (Klingon Science Ship)
Fighter Bay [sighs contenedly]
Mounts Cannon. [does happy Dance]
Sensor.A.
subsystem targetting
+10 power Aux
+5 power Weapons
Battle Cloak (yes Battle Cloak!) [yes battle cloak!]
Weapons 4 Forward, 2 Aft.
Turn Rate 15 (faster the battle cruiser, slower then most raptors, in there with Destroyers.)
Impulse Modifier 1.7
Crew 550
Hull 22,500 (fleet 25000? )
shields 1.35 (fleet 1.45 )
BOFF's
TAC - Lt
ENG - Lt
SCI - Cmdr
UNI - LtC
UNI - Ens (Fleet Lt)
Device slots x 3
Consoles Engineering 3
Science 4 (fleet 5)
Tactical 2
[there are 3 Vesta each with slightly differing console and bridge officer layouts, the same could be done here)
Warp Core ? (what ever is going to be standard for sci types)
Special Console... None.
SO, what we have is a ship as powerfull as starfleets Vesta but different in a Klingon way.
hull is slightly weaker, but with a frightening turn rate, and when you step on the gas she takes right off. The ship has the typical 2/3 firepower forward bias of Klingon ships which with the special effects availible to a well skilled science cptains should turn this particular ship into a nightmare for Starfleets multitude of Escort claasses. And packing some fighters along cant hurt that much of course.
I even have art work to go with this silly thing... I also don't want to make it uber powerfull either. No special Console comes with the ship. I figured Battle Cloak and a Hanger bay pretty much nixes a console to be fair. Power mods are not pure science, but then this is a KDF ship!
I'll see if I can scan my scetching sometime today and get it appended.
Khemaraa sends
And no matter what I keep hitting pretty much the same lay out. The Starfleet faction has thier cruiser based Vesta.
Kdf version would be more of a light battle cruiser, almost a raptor.
so, right off if the Vesta has ia bunch of spiff basic systems so should the KDF soooooo............
The Tier-5 Technology Strike Cruiser (Klingon Science Ship)
Fighter Bay [sighs contenedly]
Mounts Cannon. [does happy Dance]
Sensor.A.
subsystem targetting
+10 power Aux
+5 power Weapons
Battle Cloak (yes Battle Cloak!) [yes battle cloak!]
Weapons 4 Forward, 2 Aft.
Turn Rate 15 (faster the battle cruiser, slower then most raptors, in there with Destroyers.)
Impulse Modifier 1.7
Crew 550
Hull 22,500 (fleet 25000? )
shields 1.35 (fleet 1.45 )
BOFF's
TAC - Lt
ENG - Lt
SCI - Cmdr
UNI - LtC
UNI - Ens (Fleet Lt)
Device slots x 3
Consoles Engineering 3
Science 4 (fleet 5)
Tactical 2
[there are 3 Vesta each with slightly differing console and bridge officer layouts, the same could be done here)
Warp Core ? (what ever is going to be standard for sci types)
Special Console... None.
SO, what we have is a ship as powerfull as starfleets Vesta but different in a Klingon way.
hull is slightly weaker, but with a frightening turn rate, and when you step on the gas she takes right off. The ship has the typical 2/3 firepower forward bias of Klingon ships which with the special effects availible to a well skilled science cptains should turn this particular ship into a nightmare for Starfleets multitude of Escort claasses. And packing some fighters along cant hurt that much of course.
I even have art work to go with this silly thing... I also don't want to make it uber powerfull either. No special Console comes with the ship. I figured Battle Cloak and a Hanger bay pretty much nixes a console to be fair. Power mods are not pure science, but then this is a KDF ship!
I'll see if I can scan my scetching sometime today and get it appended.
Khemaraa sends
"I aim to misbehave" - Malcolm Reynolds
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
Its called the B'rel retrofit.
Since when does "science" mean peaceful exploration?
It also means electronic warfare, signal intelligence, counterjamming, military scouting.
Or the really, really extended version on this:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=429791
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=557341
But yeah. KDF's science ship offerings aren't that hot.
Enough hull volume to accomodate the necessary equipment for long exploration missions.
I have my doubts the KDF would waste resources on a purpose built science ship.
The Klingons wouldn't. That just leaves the Gorn, Orions, Nausicans, Letheans, Ferasans, and any other allied or mercenary states.
What astounds me though are the Fed trolls that take it upon themselves to insult the Klingon playerbase with their conceited comments regarding Klingon science expertise.
Time for a history lesson...and a bit of enlightened questioning.
1. Name one major scientific advance that has been made that does not have a military application.
2. Name the periods of time in our history where scientific advancement was the most rapid, i.e., "bursts" or rapid scientific advancement.
3. Name one scientific advance that was made solely for science -- that was NOT done in order to gain a clear advantage, or was not made to address a state of conflict.
Now for the history lesson...
1. The ushering in of the atomic age...direct result of World War 2.
2. The armored land tank....direct result of World War 1.
3. The jet aircraft...direct result of advances in military fighter design.
4. Radar, Sonar, and other types of electronic intelligence collection systems...direct result of World War 2.
5. The Space Program...has its roots in the missile technology developed during - you guessed it - World War 2.
6. Submarine, Aircraft Carriers, Aegis...all military advances.
7. Lasers -- started with military research (which continues to this day)
8. Robotics -- spearheaded by unmanned military vehicles of various sorts.
So...let's apply a bit of logic, shall we?
Who is more likely to have a robust scientific program, the Federation, who strives for peace...or the Klingons, who are in a CONSTANT state of conflict/war? I will give a well-deserved nod to the Feds for exploration...but when it comes to military science and technology...guess who I think has the edge...
You really have no idea the absolute brutality, mutilation, and utter destruction that has been created with "science".
Weapons of war are discovered through science, the most devestating acts ever brought upon a single population, that lead to complete and utter genocide of several towns, in some cases entire cities, are all in the name of science.
Do not think at any time it's "peaceful". Nothing has ever come of science that didn't lead to the injury/mutilation/death of a human being or animal.
As far as the game goes, Klingons would have the biggest edge in military weaponry, capabilities, etc.
Klingon ships specialize in firepower, maneuverability, and maybe some 'electronic warfare'.
Federation ships specialize in durability, scientific capability, and a bit into firepower (ostensibly for self-defense).
For the most part, the game roughly holds true to that. KDF doesn't have a dedicated science ship line, Federation doesn't have battlecruisers. The escorts are where it all falls apart. Federation has BETTER escort-level ships than the KDF, firepower-wise. They're slightly more maneuverable and crunchy, and they also have 5 tac-console escorts. This should not be the case. I can see Federation having escorts, but not escorts that are stronger than the KDF raptors.
The Federation's true strengths should be in its cruisers and science ships. The science ships undermine the defenses of the enemy, and the combined ability of the cruisers and escorts proceeds to try finishing them off. The KDF should be more focused on the attack, trying to find weaknesses in the enemy defenses while deploying stealth, maneuverability, and some offensive sci to open holes in said defenses.
As it stands, we're probably not gonna get that kind of subtle setup, where the two factions are truly different in how they approach things.
Hence the Defiant class paved the way for Federation Warships.
Plus, Sisko designed the Defiant.
Sisko punched Q in the face.
A Q. In the Face.
What better omen?
As for the range of ships available to each faction being wildly different, I don't see this as being particularly useful or realistic. Just look at military history on our own planet: One side comes up with a powerful new innovation, and rival tribes, nations and cultures rush to adopt it or replicate it.
I DO agree that Fed don't quite fit the Fed philosophy of being able to take a punch and still fight. It seems to me that even Fed escorts ought to be tougher and a bit less maneuverable than their Klingon equivalents.
1) Your question is setup poorly. It begs an answer, that you already want. Prior to the 20th century, military men did not do much inventing at all. What they did was latch onto an invention made for non-military purposes and applied it for military purposes. Military industrial complexes that sought out to design better weapons for their own sake are something of a novelty in history.
2) Again that is an odd question and you give a poor answer. How do you define scientific advancement? Is it number of inventions made for their own sake? Is it by how much an invention or series of inventions changed the world? Or is it by how much the invention changed the ordinary lives of the people of the time?
I would proffer the last choice. And by that definition the time with the most scientific advancement would be the end of the nineteenth century. When people were born they rode horses to work, delivered messages by carrier pigeons, used torches/candles to see at night, could only write books with a pen or a large printing press. Yet by the time of WW1 that same generation had electric light in their houses, could record their own voices, drive cars to work, write using portable typrwriters, sew 10x faster with machines, make phone calls to loved ones, see flying machines in the sky (planes). None of that was inspired by the military in any way.
3) Glasses, Paper, written language, telephone, phonogram, cars, planes, typewriters were never intended for military purposes. That someone took a purely scientific invention and applied it to military purposes does not make it a military invention. For example: the very first steam engine was for a toy. That someone two thousand years later used a steam engine in a warship does not make the steam engine a military invention. Gunpowder is another example of a toy (fireworks) being rethought with a military application.
Now I agree in principle with you that wars tend to fuel scientific development of weapons of war. But the only invention of war that touched everyone's life in a day to day fashion was 'the bomb'. Jet engines were not inspired by the military. Their development increased exponentially due to wartime investment. Your confusing development of an application of an existing invention/concept with completely independent discovery. Most of the time, military inventions are made in response to an opponent's invention. But you cite to wartime and peacetime examples with no distinction.
For example: you claim rockets are a military invention. They were not. They were quickly adapted to military purposes during WW2. Post WW2 they were reverted to both military and non-military purposes. Both development tracks were sped up by the wartime development. What happens with development by NASA after WW2 is not an example of military inventions. Did NASA develop ICBMS? ICBM's may have been inspired by Von Braun, who also aided NASA. But NASA didn't build or develop them. NASA's inventions were a purely non-military scientific research project.
The question I would pose to you is what invention came from the military 100% indepedently on its own that shaped the world at large in the aftermath of its development? I'll give you the bomb. Any more?
Check out the Japanese unit 731 from WW2. Probably one of the most sickening things you can find that was done in the name of science.
However, there are also plenty of cases of benign science done just for the joy of discovery. Humans are weird that way.
Up until the invention of rocketry, the field of astronomy had absolutely no military application, especially in the early days of Galileo and Copernicus. In point of fact, the marriage of technology and military comes only recently in our history.
I think you're confusing cause and effect. It's the advancement of science which created perceived military opportunities and capabilities not seen before. Without the creation of the modern industrial infrastructure, there's no reason to believe that total wars like World War I and World War II would ever have achieved the scale they did. The invention of Atomic fission, and the weaponry which it might be used in, for example, was theorized long before the advent of hostilities in World War II. (By Leo Szilard in 1933). Simply put, science changed how we waged war, war did not change how we conduct science.
Virtually all of math, astronomy, biology, and 90% of human ingenuity prior to the industrial age. The problem here is that it's difficult to separate conflict from human advancement, because human history has been festooned with conflict. But it's a mistake to assume that because Empires have rivals that their scientists devote their works to gaining the upper hand in those rivalries. Just look at our own scientific community: Nearly to a man they're pacifist, promoting not the supremacy of one culture or nation over another, but cooperation towards the improved commonwealth of humanity.
Look, I agree with your assertion that there's little reason for the Klingon Empire to eschew applied sciences, but I do think it's reasonable to suggest that the Federation, with its avowed dedication to improve the standard of living for all of its members, might be a bit more well-disposed to devote more of their resources to pure research and discovery than the superstitious and belligerent Klingon Empire. (And before you accuse me of being a Fed Troll, my main is a Klingon Engineer).
Federation has pushed so many things in show that outlaws and bans majority of military based research, Klingons push for military research, more than 90% of everything we use today, originated in the military's labs.
Meaning the KDF is more likely to make scientific breakthroughs, than the federation ever is.
Even today btw, everything we know now, is a result of someone dying, being mutilated, or an animal sharing the same fate.
Newton invented calculus to prove gravity. Archimedes learned how to determine mass in a bathtub to determine if a crown was legit or not. Hippocrates pushed biology for the sake of saving people not killing them. History channel is interesting but really take it with a grain of salt. A number of professors role their eyes at conclusions drawn in those shows. The Wright Brothers were not military scientists. They made bicycles for a living. Thomas Edison was a corporate entrepeneur. As was Henry Ford and his assembly line so invaluable to WW2 production. Guess what, that was made to sell more cars in peacetime.
Capitalism pushes more inventions than any military could afford to research. Even today.
Also look at the cold war. Both Soviet Russia and the US pushed military science for better weapons. In the beginning, the Soviets had the lead in many fields. By the end the US led in nearly every field. There is alot more to science research than the purpose of the research (build bigger bomb/ stronger tank, etc.)
Besides, Klingons won't utilize thalaron weaponry or research in game. So KDF has its own limits as well. Just saying . . . :P
People charted stars for navigational purposes.
Militaries need to go places.
Therefore it was a military application.
Not really what anyone else is saying. Just because the military adapts a technology at some point doesn't mean said technology was developed with military purpose in mind.
Does anyone feel me on this, or am I completely stupid?
History channel has nothing to do with it, multiple classes in history does.
Spartans were the first to study constellations, followed by the Athenians, primary focus of studying the constellations were to determine there location, not by looking around, but just by looking up and identifying their angle.
Newton did not create calculus, he created an algebraic equation yes, but he did not create calculus. The origin of modern day calculus, is derived from Manhatten project.
Archemides never had any understanding of "Mass", "Mass" never existed scientifically until the 1800's when they discovered the properties of mass. And how did that come about? I'll let you take a guess, it involves fortifications made by the Southern States, and a man who fled what is now modern day Poland.
Hippocrates studies were conducted by military mandates. Do a research project on him. Vikings pushed for better navigation, and more advanced ships to be able to push further outward for their plunder. The Vikings way of life was on the sea, and destroying and plundering everything they could.
Henry Fords first automobiles, sold to the US Military.
The WRight brothers after showing their first prototype, was granted military funding to continue their studies. Thomas Edison was funded by the military department of congress, it's how he got his first paychecks. Almost all of the funding he had for his research and development, came from tax payers.
Soviet Union and the United States pushed so far during the Cold War, the only reason the US came out on top was the Soviet Unions decision to push into Afghanistan.
As far as R&D, so much was achieved, because we wanted means of delivering the highest amount of devestation, with the least amount of resources. The Helicopter, is one such invention that came to be, soly because of this.
We had more funding going on into our military during the cold war, than we ever did even to this day. The Microwave was even created through military research. The computer you use today, was for military applications.
As far as the Klingons go, yes, they do do research into Theteron Radiation, ever read the novels? The Klingons even put research and developed a phased shifting torpedo that phases between subspace and regular space, creating a quantum singularity that can destroy an entire planet. (Read the novels, Ezri Dax and Captain Riker were sent to create a treaty to control who can, and how the subspace torpedos can be used through a weapons treaty.)
Military tech, Klingons are far ahead of the Feds.
The inspiration of the KDF was the Vikings. Inspiration for the Romulan Star Empire was Rome. When he was asked/interviewed, TOS main races (KDF and Rom) were inspired by ancient civilizations during the time periods. With modern day twists of NATO, Warsaw Pact, and the UN as a whole. Tal Shiar was inspired by the KGB, while the Carassians (Can't remember the name of their intelligence service) intelligence service was modeled over the CIA.
Star Trek had huge political focus groups between races, etc. The Federation overall was more focused on representing the United Nations, pushing as the galaxies police force, etc. THis was all in the interview on what made him come up with star trek.
Which overtime evolved into a grand twist of plots, and endless possibilities. He took the world around him and started one of the biggest franchises in the world with it.
But no, you're not completely stupid. Throughout the series, throughout canon, there are many paraphrased references between ancient and modern cultures.
I chose one of your statements at random to look up. A quick search for "Astronomy" brought up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_astronomy. Prehistoric Egyptians apparently used crude astronomy to figure out a calendar, cycles, and the pattern of flooding for the Nile.
Look deeper. 12 month calender we used today was created by Rome. Centuries earlier.........
Umm, the link I just gave indicates that the Egyptians studied Astronomy several thousand
Open a history book.
The 12 Month Calender we use today, dates back from 1900 BC from the earliest discovered calender. The months of the year are named after the Roman Gods, and several DemiGods.
You created a straw man argument. I said the prehistoric egyptians used astronomy, and designed their own calendar. You countered with, "Yea well, the Romans made a 12 month calendar!" You also falsely claimed that the Romans somehow created their calendar before PREHISTORIC egyptians.
That's all also irrelevant. Your original assertion was that the Spartans were the first to use astronomy, I disproved that. Who the hell brought up a 12 month calendar?
The only error I can find, it's actually a common one.
It's BF-109 (Bayerische Flugzeugwerke) because German terminology uses the name of the manufacturer for the perfix, not the name of the designer.;)
Anyway, "united earth" as it was called in the first season (the was no "Federation") was supposed to represent the U.S. while the two major aliens were supposed to represent somewhat exaggerated foreign powers.
With the Klingons it was originally a bit of Soviets and a bit of Mongol Horde and with the Romulans a bit of Space Romans and the Germans from "The Enemy Below".
This later changed a bit and became Romulans as the Red Chinese who get tech from the Soviets (the D-7).
I'm not sure whether direct analogies for the ships and fighters work properly because the technological levels are somewhat similar in Trek while German craft like the Me-262 were new and untested (and tended to overhead and burn up).
Something that might work a bit better are actually tanks: the olt Soviet tanks were lighter than their counterparts (both German and Western allies), uncomfortable to drive and simple in design.
But they were darn sturdy and worked and continue to work.
And while you can usually tell the difference between the T-55 and T-72, the general layout remains the same over more than half a century.
You did,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I did what? I said, "calendar," not "the 12 month calendar we still use today." And again, it's a strawman argument. You are ignoring the main point and trying to pick apart a semantical argument. I provided evidence to show that astronomy was NOT invented by the Spartans as you claimed. It existed in prehistoric times and was used as a means to mark the dates of religious festivals (calendar!), cycles, and the pattern of the flooding of the nile.
It all goes back to your original assertion that all science was embarked upon due to military need. That's simply incorrect, as several of us now have provided proof for.
I posted in a thread before I noticed this one, but personally I was thinking similar to this, except maybe dump the hanger bay and give her some more tac consoles.
I mean without some punch from the weapons the battle cloak is more defensive then really taking advantage of the buff in battle. The wouldn't really need battle cloak at all.
Maybe make her 3/3 weapon load out, 4 tac consoles, and some battle cloak. The battle cloak would give her some punch to make up for the lack of hanger the Vesta has, maybe make her a hull around 30k.
If people don't like calling it a science ship can call it a tactical scout.