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Review/Feedback: Tholian pets
momaw
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
I feel like the Angry Pet Reviewer sometimes. I've tried a lot of different pets, and I have been disappointed with most of them. Advanced Peregrine and To'duj fighter, for example, are actually worse than the basic variants which cost far less. Tholian Widow fighters are one of the things I've bashed in the past, and like a lot of carrier captains I've been rocking Elite Scorpions on my Recluse carrier ever since. But now:
General feeling on Tholian Mesh Weavers is: Acceptable!
Today's patch adds in Mesh Weavers. These are unique frigate-class pets only available to the Recluse carrier. They have the following weaponry and abilities:
2x Dual tetryon beams
Tetryon beam array
Thermionic torpedo launcher
Fire At Will 1
Attack Pattern Beta 1
Evasive Maneuvers (?)
The Advanced version has the same weapons, but upgrades the Fire At Will and Attack Pattern Beta abilities to level 2. The basic Mesh Weaver is free, the Advanced version costs 30,250 dilithium per hangar. The ship has a little more than 30K hull strength. One ship launches at a time and you can have 2 per hangar, like other frigates. The Mesh Weaver has a fast cooldown: With my carrier running maximum aux power the basic cooldown is 19 seconds, and with my two flight deck officers, I can spam weavers as fast as fighters. This makes good use of their tactical abilities.
Thanks to work on pet AI, the mesh weavers spend a lot of their time with their front pointed at the enemy, which is where their torpedo and dual beams are. Their Fire At Will capability means that while their beam weapons are just as weak as other pets, they are potentially hitting a lot of targets. Scattering stacking Attack Pattern Beta all over everything in sight also makes them very nice for helping your team in general. The Thermionic torpedo does more damage than the player's version: its base damage is in the 6K-7K range.
In terms of raw damage output, this is going to vary depending on what you're fighting. If you're in STF missions tearing down structures, Elite Scorpions are going to win on damage output thanks to their devastating waves of torpedoes. Unshielded targets simply evaporate to super-scorps. However, in other types of engagements with more mobile enemies, mesh weavers are solid: their weapons do comparatively less damage but they are multi-hitting, their torpedoes aren't getting shot down, and they're debuffing everything in range. They should be particularly good at clearing up enemy pet spam and mine fields.
Elite Scorpions make better "bombers", Mesh Weavers make better escort-frigates. They also look cool and fit the Tholian theme better, if the roleplay/style aspect matters to you.
Things Cryptic could do to instantly make these pets not worth anything:
1.) Prevent APB from stacking
2.) Increase cooldown time
Criticisms:
1.) Not really a complaint as such, but I question what the purpose of Evasive Maneuvers for these pets is. I haven't seen them using it very intelligently. Typically Evasive is for escaping an overwhelming situation, which they don't do, or for getting around in a big ship that doesn't move well, which the weaver is not. There seem to be no rhyme or reason applied to when they use their Evasive?
2.) The Advanced version is slightly disappointing compared to the basic mesh weaver, since all it does it increase the level of their abilities which isn't going to matter much. Fairly poor return on investment. I would like to see the Advanced weavers gain about a increase to their base energy weapon damage (20%?), or to add a forward quantum torpedo launcher in addition to the thermionic launcher. (I was going to say throw a turret on there, but apparently none of the Tholian ships use cannon type weapons)
====================================
General feeling on Tholian Tetryon Grid is: Worse than useless
This is relevant since the Mesh Weaver has "works with tetryon grid" as a feature. Tetryon Grid was worse than useless when I first got a Recluse, and just to make sure I looked at it again: Still worse than useless.
The amount of damage gained from this console is very, very, small. We're talking the functional equivalent of 1 of my torpedo hits, every 2 minutes. This makes it worse than useless because just using another tactical console would be more productive. Seeing as this is apparently supposed to be a real thing for the Recluse, it needs an overhaul.
What about:
* 1 minute basic cooldown
* 15 second system cooldown on Beam Weapons (FAW, Overload, Subtarget)
* Affects up to 4 Tholian pets within 10km (unless there is some strong rationale for it being 6km)
* Each pet reflects 3 simultaneous tetryon beams at randomly selected targets. Each beam does around 3K damage
* Same target cannot be hit multiple times by the same fighter (no, you can't use this as Super Beam Overload 9001)
* Player weapon power momentarily drained by 25 points after tetryon grid.
This would have an absolutely ideal-circumstances damage output of 36,000 damage per activation, or 600 DPS. However this would be spread across at LEAST 3 targets, possibly more, and be affected by miss chance, range, shield hardness, etc.
General feeling on Tholian Mesh Weavers is: Acceptable!
Today's patch adds in Mesh Weavers. These are unique frigate-class pets only available to the Recluse carrier. They have the following weaponry and abilities:
2x Dual tetryon beams
Tetryon beam array
Thermionic torpedo launcher
Fire At Will 1
Attack Pattern Beta 1
Evasive Maneuvers (?)
The Advanced version has the same weapons, but upgrades the Fire At Will and Attack Pattern Beta abilities to level 2. The basic Mesh Weaver is free, the Advanced version costs 30,250 dilithium per hangar. The ship has a little more than 30K hull strength. One ship launches at a time and you can have 2 per hangar, like other frigates. The Mesh Weaver has a fast cooldown: With my carrier running maximum aux power the basic cooldown is 19 seconds, and with my two flight deck officers, I can spam weavers as fast as fighters. This makes good use of their tactical abilities.
Thanks to work on pet AI, the mesh weavers spend a lot of their time with their front pointed at the enemy, which is where their torpedo and dual beams are. Their Fire At Will capability means that while their beam weapons are just as weak as other pets, they are potentially hitting a lot of targets. Scattering stacking Attack Pattern Beta all over everything in sight also makes them very nice for helping your team in general. The Thermionic torpedo does more damage than the player's version: its base damage is in the 6K-7K range.
In terms of raw damage output, this is going to vary depending on what you're fighting. If you're in STF missions tearing down structures, Elite Scorpions are going to win on damage output thanks to their devastating waves of torpedoes. Unshielded targets simply evaporate to super-scorps. However, in other types of engagements with more mobile enemies, mesh weavers are solid: their weapons do comparatively less damage but they are multi-hitting, their torpedoes aren't getting shot down, and they're debuffing everything in range. They should be particularly good at clearing up enemy pet spam and mine fields.
Elite Scorpions make better "bombers", Mesh Weavers make better escort-frigates. They also look cool and fit the Tholian theme better, if the roleplay/style aspect matters to you.
Things Cryptic could do to instantly make these pets not worth anything:
1.) Prevent APB from stacking
2.) Increase cooldown time
Criticisms:
1.) Not really a complaint as such, but I question what the purpose of Evasive Maneuvers for these pets is. I haven't seen them using it very intelligently. Typically Evasive is for escaping an overwhelming situation, which they don't do, or for getting around in a big ship that doesn't move well, which the weaver is not. There seem to be no rhyme or reason applied to when they use their Evasive?
2.) The Advanced version is slightly disappointing compared to the basic mesh weaver, since all it does it increase the level of their abilities which isn't going to matter much. Fairly poor return on investment. I would like to see the Advanced weavers gain about a increase to their base energy weapon damage (20%?), or to add a forward quantum torpedo launcher in addition to the thermionic launcher. (I was going to say throw a turret on there, but apparently none of the Tholian ships use cannon type weapons)
====================================
General feeling on Tholian Tetryon Grid is: Worse than useless
This is relevant since the Mesh Weaver has "works with tetryon grid" as a feature. Tetryon Grid was worse than useless when I first got a Recluse, and just to make sure I looked at it again: Still worse than useless.
The amount of damage gained from this console is very, very, small. We're talking the functional equivalent of 1 of my torpedo hits, every 2 minutes. This makes it worse than useless because just using another tactical console would be more productive. Seeing as this is apparently supposed to be a real thing for the Recluse, it needs an overhaul.
What about:
* 1 minute basic cooldown
* 15 second system cooldown on Beam Weapons (FAW, Overload, Subtarget)
* Affects up to 4 Tholian pets within 10km (unless there is some strong rationale for it being 6km)
* Each pet reflects 3 simultaneous tetryon beams at randomly selected targets. Each beam does around 3K damage
* Same target cannot be hit multiple times by the same fighter (no, you can't use this as Super Beam Overload 9001)
* Player weapon power momentarily drained by 25 points after tetryon grid.
This would have an absolutely ideal-circumstances damage output of 36,000 damage per activation, or 600 DPS. However this would be spread across at LEAST 3 targets, possibly more, and be affected by miss chance, range, shield hardness, etc.
Post edited by momaw on
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Fire at will can also be an issue, especially when you need to attack a single target and your mesh weaver run in all Leeroy Jenkins style and pulls everything. They get themselves killed a lot in cure because they keep attacking the cubes and drawing aggro.
Damage is ok, of course like most hanger pets most of the damage seems to come from their torpedo. The thermionic torpedo hits for around 6-11k on a bare hull. Their tetryon damage is a little on the low side and isn't very noticeable (I think they could also be affected by the FaW energy drain bug ATM, so it is possible that their damage could increase once that is fixed).
The best part about these pets is attack pattern beta. Granted, I wish it was attack pattern alpha or omega
Evasive maneuver seems to do more harm than good. I've watched them pilot up to their target time and time again only to hit evasive maneuver only to slingshot past their intended target.
Momaw summed up the tetryon grid pretty nicely, It's useless. At this point I feel like it could be a contender for the worst universal console in the game and from a lock box at that too (at least it doesn't kill you like the suicide console lol). I'm also worried that the mesh weavers might be balanced around tetryon grid being an ability for them (like how the tholian fighters only have 2 weapons plus tetryon grid vs most fighters having 3 weapons). This really shouldn't be the case as one already gives up a console slot to use tetryon grid, Their hanger pets shouldn't also give up an ability to use it. Tetryon grid is also made worse by the fact that you only have 4 of the mesh weavers instead of the full 12 which it was meant for.
For fun I met up with a friend who has the Jem'hadar dreadnought carrier and we decided to match his attack ships vs my mesh weavers. The mesh weavers got smoked. After his attack ships destroyed 2 of the 4 I even summoned an additional 2. They still got smashed. I think the new AI this last patch must have really helped the attack ships because they seemed to be able to keep their forward cannons zeroed on the mesh weavers while the mesh weavers mostly just fired their beam array at them.
One problem I've seen is the pets tend to sometimes just stop mid flight for no reason. This usually happens when they end up slightly out of weapons range from my target, although they will occasionally do it mid fight as well.
All in all I feel like the Mesh Weavers are probably a good C+.
FaW on a hanger pet isn't that great as pets don't have energy management abilities to make use of that skill. Damage is a little on the low side, but having attack pattern beta makes up for that and then some (as it increases not just their damage but everyone's). Having 4 ships with thermionic torpedoes is also a plus especially when one procs. The tool tip says that they can use the tetryon grid, but it doesn't say that you should use tetryon grid
One last thing, the best part about them is that you do not have to own a 400 million Energy credit ship to purchase them :P.
Gonna have to disagree with you on both of these points.
Here's a screen grab from combatlogparser.
As you can see, their hit ratios are very good, and their most powerful weapon system is their dual beams.
(Also: lol tetryon grid)
Perhaps make them fly past targets to a distance of 7km at 100% throttle, then turn around, set throttle to 50%, and use both FAW and APB. If hull falls below half, use evasive maneuvers and keep throttle to 100%.
Slightly more computationally expensive:
If multiple targets are within range check to see if any are within 90 degrees of the ship's position and the player's target; if they are, set course between the targets to ensure FAW is multi-hitting with best guns.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
Have you used them? What is your experience? Why are they overpowered?
I feel compelled to defend these things because they're actually a viable alternative to elite scorpion spam, and I want to see more viable alternatives in this game instead of nerfed uselessness.
Not saying i want a nerf, this is just my statement, this is one of the most powerful items in game:
- These ships will stack multiple beta debuffs on targets (up to 4, happens quite a lot with fire at will). NPCs have no innate resistance to debuffs, including boss ships, as far as I know. And 4 betas are really more debuffs than most teams will ever get with their own boffs.
- The very short respawn timer, around 20s without doffs and like 80 or 90 power to aux, allow anyone to make sure the wings are always up, and they pop instantly, unlike the vesta's pets. Since these pets are very resilient, they stay alive at least 2-3 mins in a STF anyway if your team is doing well.
- DBB: mesh weavers are able to use them, and it seems to deal quite a lot of damage
- Tholian torps: the number of pets make the tholian torp procs happen regularly. Not "often", though, but it's enough to remove most of your targets power to engines in pve. I haven't been able to see how effective it is in pvp since focusing on what your pets do is much harder (lots of blinking lights and more brain time required), but i assume they can do an ok job.
4 Mesh weavers pets are able to take down cruiser level npc without dying in normal mode, and I assume they would be able to take down a battleship with some time and a couple of respawns. So, basically, these pets will do the job for the player. They can also do the job for your team in STFs (beta patterns stacking). I guess it wasn't the purpose but now it's there. They are dps pets and will do a better job than scorpions, even as advanced weavers. That's why it's awesome/op, it's fire and forget, and your pets will do it for you even if you have no clue on how the game should be played.
Two mesh weavers in your hangar is like a mega debuff console you can pop at will with a regular APB cooldown, occasional power level debuffs and a nice DPS. I really hope we get some better NPCs with more powers and a smarter AI, or just some harder pve if this new step in power creep is what we have to expect in the coming months.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
Four stacks happens very rarely, as far as I can tell, since it requires that wing 1 have theirs come off cooldown at the same time as you launch wing 2. Very difficult to coordinate. Two stacks is pretty common... which will put the effect on par with a single stack of APB used by a player with skill points in Attack Patterns.
Fighters already had very short respawn timers. The entire point of elite scorpions is to get their respawn time down to 10 seconds with FDOs so that you have a non stop barrage of heavy plasma torps.
And all "true" carriers have fast launch times. Fast launching goes for any pet launched by any carrier.
The resilience is deceptive, since if you're having the same pets stay alive that long then you're not launching fresh ones to reset their abilities. Pretty much the only thing their 30K of hull points does for you is stop them from getting instantly vaporized as collateral damage to FAW spam or explosions in front of the ship as they leave. As long as they survive the 20 seconds it takes to use their abilities and spawn the next wave, they are "durable enough".
I will dispute the notion that the weavers are doing "quite a lot of damage". Their total damage output seems to be somewhere between basic fighters and elite scorpions; on a standard ISE benchmark (heh), basic fighters score around 1K DPS, while elite scorpions can go north of 2K... Mesh weavers are around 1.5K.
Their DBB seems to be rated for a base of around 850 damage, which is nearly unique among pets in being more than the absolute bare minimum damage. They're actually pushing some power to their energy weapons.
But of course Weavers are going to do more damage than fighter pets with their weapons... You get fewer of them.Their beams hit harder than other pets, but at the same time you can only have 4 of them because they are frigates. Now, if we had Widows doing 850 damage with their beam array, times twelve fighters, firing non stop from every direction! Epic! (as Widows exist now the damage on their beam array is Pet Standard i.e. total TRIBBLE: about 120 base)
Something else to consider, because the Weavers are shooting at virtually everything, their intermediate-DPS isn't the same as the focused sledgehammer blows of the scorpions. They're doing respectable total damage but they're pecking a little bit at everything instead of knocking down one target after another like the hungry swarm of heavy plasma.
This was already true for other pets. Standard fighters will take a while to get through the shields since their pulse cannons are pathetic and most of their damage is kinetic. The question isn't one of "Can my pets kill that target without me doing anything except respawning them", the question is "How long will it take". And if we're talking about pets versus single enemy ships, elite scorpions are the champions. Period.
Oh and my mesh weavers took care of the Undine cruiser in ~30s. Which is under the average time it takes to players to kill it (yes, i know, but it's true
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
And if someone has the stats, I'd also like to know the cost.
Tells you some things about what the average player values, doesn't it.
Indeed, and Task Force Spectre will have the stats at long last next sunday (if they feel inclined to post them) on the elite pets.
So we'll see what happens with that. It might get more fleets on tier 5 science, or it might show that it isn't worth it except to do it dead last.
That's the Tholian orb weaver.
They weave a mesh... of tetyron beams.
No really. They can out a quite remarkable amount of beam spam under the right conditions.
Hm it's one ABP and probably one FAW per wing then, and the CD applies to the wing. I must have gotten additional beta patterns from the beam boats spamming FAW near me in starbase 24, which is the first part of my stress test for pets.
The main difference between scorpions and mesh weavers is that mesh weaver mainly do energy damage while all scorpions can do is kinetic damage, which make them perfect pets for specific STFs like infected, but on their own, they really suck because they can't deal with shields. Weavers are far more versatile and reliable since energy damage will always work.
Still, even with the beta pattern limit, they are awesome. They make boss fights really easier. Like scorpions but they are quite different pets.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
The image I'm getting is that mesh weavers are okay-but-unremarkable for STF missions. Everything in there can be killed more efficiently by scorpions and the plasma swarm of death. And they're also pretty pathetic for interspersed combat that's spread out over an area since their engagement range is limited by your own ability to get around and the Recluse is out-slothed by very few ships. But there's a kind of sweet spot. Mesh weaver's prime habitat seems to be large numbers of ships in close proximity, especially lighter ones like frigates. So I can easily imagine that Starbase 24 makes them look like rock stars.
I did min. 10 STF Runs to compare Elite Scorp F. vs. TH. Weavers.
My experience:
Elite Scop. Fi. have min. 10% more DMG as TH.Weavers.
Why ?
Overall they re doing the same DMG.... Weavers a more as the Scorps. BUT without Hvy Torp. I hits, which are doing the most DMG of the Scorps. If u count the Hiygh Yield i Torps of the Scorps, u gain min. 10% more DMG as with the Weavers.
Say it so:
If the Scorps would not have High Yield I Torps, the Weavers will be the better Choice, BUT the Scorps hav High Yield T. I., so there mostly the best. DONT forget High Y. Plasam Torps are hitable, thats important, so ur choice up to the sitituation where u stuck in.
BTW 30K hull is a joke without counting shields. They blow as fast as the most other Hanger pets. OK they got a few secs more.... but they also blow by an Warp Core breach of any NPC which is to close to them. Especially if start to kill a single ship in an STF, the result is that 2 of 4 will died cos they re to close.