I'm curious where you think I've stated that I think there is parity.
Reference?
Except that's ignoring the points I've made.
Eng would be better at the Kill-denial role if several of their powers were tweaked or revamped to fulfill it.
What I'm arguing for is exactly that, increasing the Engineer's ability to deny kills in a teamwide fashion as opposed to being a PvE tank, which is how they've been designed.
Parity of Sci & Tac doesn't come through their ability to buff their damage. Sci doesn't buff Sci's damage. Both have roles on a PvP team, and those roles are not the same.
I want role space for the Eng, I want it to capitalize on what the Eng is already able to do selfishly, and broaden it to be team focused.
We need parity for the Eng that is not "damage boosts". Because that makes no sense.
Eng is the most survivable, that's apparent in design. How much better at survival is an Eng vs. a Tac? It's clearly more than 10%.
The issue, is that design doesn't work in PvP.
It's really that simple.
So the shift that needs to be made, is to broaden the role from "PvE tank" into "PvP Healer" which in reality is less "healer" and more "kill denial specialist".
Adding damage in some tiny amount to Eng captain powers will do nothing of value for the career.
Sci will still be several orders of magnitude more valuable, for bringing kill denial tools (SNB, Scatering Field, Sci Fleet) & force multipliers (SNB, Sensor Scan).
I'm pretty sure DDIS's post was refering to Virus's post and not your posts, fyi.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
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"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
I'm pretty sure DDIS's post was refering to Virus's post and not your posts, fyi.
Hrmmm, I don't see it. Unless he was referring to everybody in a Miranda with no gear, no passives, no BOFFs, etc. Because that's the only place I suggested there was any parity. Then I pointed out the great disparity that arises because of everything else. So with nowhere being a case of everybody in a Miranda...yeah, just don't see him as referring to my post.
Eng is the most survivable, that's apparent in design. How much better at survival is an Eng vs. a Tac? It's clearly more than 10%.
The issue, is that design doesn't work in PvP.
people build and use certain ships for certain captains. stick a tac captain in a dedicated eng healer and ther would be a 10% difference in its ability to keep itself alive. no differenec in keeping others alive if its not shot at. thats 100% station powers.
Adding damage in some tiny amount to Eng captain powers will do nothing of value for the career.
ya, maybe in a premade it wouldn't. but being able to keep the energy weapon damage buff on all the time in pugs and pvpe would be transformative for an eng. im not for balancing for a duel or anything, but if an eng with 125 weapons power, EPtW being completely unable to phase an escort that will shoot at it until it eventually gives up or it kills the eng, that will never sit right with me. a cruiser with 8 weapon slots and 8 energy weapons should never be that harmless.
eng cruisers used to be able to fire and have some sort of effect, at least force heals to be used, why do you not want something even that basic anymore? again, this would only be for eng that use EPtW. an eng scort with room for EPtW wouldn't be quite as fail too, with 4 cannons it could have a bit of an effect actually.
im all for pretty much all you suggest, im not saying they just need to do more damage and they are fixed. that still wont be enough to fix pressure damage.
> MW: Add clease (all?), Add (huge, like BFI sized) Resistance buff 15s duration, Resistance buff is immune to SNB. Castable on others.
> RSF: Castable on others, unlike ES cannot be shock-waved off (pretty sure this is the current implementation), grant first 10s immunity to SNB (to add value as a serious kill denial tool that can deal with chain SNBs, of which it already shares the same CD cycle).
> NI: Should provide extreme resistance against any and all drains, shield, power siphons, leech, you name it. This power should basically make the target immune to that. I also think some kind of exotic, or interesting mitigating AoE mechanic centered on the target or caster would be good. Should be castable on others.
im all for that. and an engy trait that makes EPtW's energy damage buff last all 30 seconds.
not a reference from you, from viruses ever more confusing posts.
How was what I said confusing?
Cryptic looked at the Captain Abilities and said - these are balanced.
I said that if you put them in a stock Miranda, no extra gear, no passives, etc, etc, etc - then they're pretty balanced.
I then said to add in all the gear, add the passives, add all the rest.. bam - world of difference. Heck, I even said it there in the post. It's a world of difference. Any semblance of balance is lost because of everything that's in the game.
If people just look at the base abilities while ignoring everything else - then it's a fruitless endeavor.
There's only one thing in the game that does not face either diminishing returns or a cap.
The different Careers have different Skills available to them.
The different Careers have different Kits available to them.
Even there, though - you can still build the Skills out differently and take different Kits for different Roles.
They're trying to force something on the game that is not there. There are a lot of different pieces that one can put together in different ways to attempt to min/max for a specific role, to try to add diversity to handle various situations, etc, etc, etc. Even switching out different parts to do other things... kind of like the Careers on the Ground switching out Kits.
But Cryptic has added so many things - turned it into such a munchkin gaming scenario - with DOFFs, set bonuses, passives, hybrid ships, hybrid weapons, etc, etc, etc... and they continue to add more DOFFs, more sets, more passives, more hybrid ships, more hybrid weapons, etc, etc, etc.
And as each part of that munchkin gaming replaces something else - there is one thing that is not subject to diminishing returns nor any cap. It's always going to be king. Which fits in perfectly with what munchkin gaming is. It's one of the reasons that STO's little more than Hack 'n Slash in Space.
The different Careers have different Skills available to them.
The different Careers have different Kits available to them.
Even there, though - you can still build the Skills out differently and take different Kits for different Roles.
They're trying to force something on the game that is not there. There are a lot of different pieces that one can put together in different ways to attempt to min/max for a specific role, to try to add diversity to handle various situations, etc, etc, etc. Even switching out different parts to do other things... kind of like the Careers on the Ground switching out Kits.
But Cryptic has added so many things - turned it into such a munchkin gaming scenario - with DOFFs, set bonuses, passives, hybrid ships, hybrid weapons, etc, etc, etc... and they continue to add more DOFFs, more sets, more passives, more hybrid ships, more hybrid weapons, etc, etc, etc.
And as each part of that munchkin gaming replaces something else - there is one thing that is not subject to diminishing returns nor any cap. It's always going to be king. Which fits in perfectly with what munchkin gaming is. It's one of the reasons that STO's little more than Hack 'n Slash in Space.
As far as I know Tacs haven't hit a damage cap even with all the addons. Same for Sci debuffing potential (particially b/c of all the buffing to offset it and the more buffs/the stronger the debuff of SNB becomes). It's much easier to hit power and resist caps though. That's the main problem w/Eng abilities at this point, imo.
So, if power and resist caps are easily met @ end game either the caps need to be raised, or another role needs to be flushed out, or another means to achieve the same role needs to be flushed out, or somewhere inbetween if there's a desire to put Eng on a more equal playing field. Again, I'm refering to space.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
What if we would remove careers as we known them and simply introduce the classes based on factions.
Starfleet Officer -> Engineering focus with tac/sci flavour options
Klingon Officer -> Tactical focus with eng/sci flavour options
Romulan Officer -> Science focus with tac/eng flavour options
On each rank you would get one main ability, or a choice between two lesser versions of abilites from different a focus.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
What if we would remove careers as we known them and simply introduce the classes based on factions.
Starfleet Officer -> Engineering focus with tac/sci flavour options
Klingon Officer -> Tactical focus with eng/sci flavour options
Romulan Officer -> Science focus with tac/eng flavour options
On each rank you would get one main ability, or a choice between two lesser versions of abilites from different a focus.
It would have been nifty if they had gone with a more Starfleet Divisions/Crew thing with the start and found a way to work that into the KDF (and I guess the Romulans).
Then take a look at the various "heroes" and "supporting crew" - you'll find that they were usually a mix of two. You might have Command/Tac-Ops, Tac-Ops/Eng-Ops, Sci-Sci/Eng-Ops, etc, etc, etc.
Had folks taken a "primary" and "secondary" specialization - selecting from those...
...oh well, I did a more lengthy post about it out there somewhere - don't have it in me to find it right now. The stuff on Tribble has me figuring that I'm giving up on PvP - and - I'll probably end up playing STO like the girlfriend plays Farmerama.
tac and sci captains have their own way of being deadly already, its not just tacs, only eng have no damage dealing. tacs have their tac buffs that greatly increase damage for a short time, and sci have crippling debuffs that remove all defense and another skill that lowers hull armor. eng have nothing effective for dealing damage in their way, over time. thats why something like EPtW's energy damage buff for its entire 30 seconds, ONLY for eng with these new character type traits, would be a perfect thing for them. it would even directly buff DEM and EWP, 2 eng skills for dealing damage. its perfect. this would only make more kirky cruisers that use EPtW more dangerous too, completely heal focused ships wouldn't change.
Exactly spot on! Engies are a dull, boring class to play with, at least in space. They were always like that, but now it's even more than before. Spec the engi right and you just fly in circles pressing spacebar. And you only kill mediocre players. I remember before, an engi in a cruiser could kill an escort most of the time. Now, the best an engi can do is tank 2-3 ships, but speced like that it will never kill anything. No matter what you do with an engi right now, you can't have enough damage to kill a decent opponent. All those heals and resists added lately in the game (consoles, gear in general, rep system) caused the need for an engi to be almost inexistent.
And yea, engis miss the sharp teeth sci and tac have. Or better said, they got dull from all the super resists and heals the game added lately...
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Something needs to be done about it, my engi kdf just sits there on the shelf because everything else does everything else better
When I do fly my eng I find myself hardly touching my captain skills because they have no use or bearing on what I'm trying to do
You could argue the eps and nadion assist in beam drain but you have to build using just 4/5 beams with eptw anyway for the times they aren't up
You could argue that whatever the shield heal is called is a mean TSS I cycle two anyway
You could argue that MW Is a mean heal but with the countdown it has its use is extremely limited as a reliable heal
Everything the other two get can not be matched by any Boff power(realistically) and there all a lot better by a huge margin well except photonics fleet which is only really a spam creater in PVP and sucks realistically except when a feddy battleship is spawned and its spamming tractors and repulsors urgh
Someone said earlier an eng escort can do as much damage as a tacscort man you are seriously deluded or doing it wrong
----=====This is my opinion you don't have to listen and no one else has to read them these "OPINIONS" are based on my exploits and my learning other people will have their opinions and that's fine just don't knock my way of doing things thanks=====---- :cool:
Engineers need an ability that makes them unignorable. A 30 sec damage buff to EPtW might be what the doctor ordered. But then chaining two copies of it would mean Engineers would have a constant Tac Fleet II which I think might be a bit OP. Needs some sort of cooldown.
Engineers have become pretty much obsolete, in comparison to the other two classes they do not bring a significant advantage to a team anymore.
Agreed. I don't really have a lot to add what has already been said about Engineers, but it is really disappointing that Engineers don't offer anything to a team except for keeping themselves alive. Tacs/Scis can tank well enough on their own. At the end of the day, DPS is king so I would like to see Engineers get a boost to damage output and cast-able captain abilities and other abilities that benefit the team.
Glad I don't play this game anymore seeing that escorts online is still in effect. Developer's don't know what is going on with this game, they don't know how to balance it because pvpers are the 1%.
If they did balance it escorts would ***** about it because C-Store and lockboxes escorts such as the JHAS generate money $$$ for cryptic. This is just politics there playing. It's very obvious enough.
Remember Al Rivera posts about cruisers and beams weapons and eng powers? He said there fine and nothing is wrong with them.
Cruisers well they still as always " Armored knight with a paper sword ". Yea honestly who the hell wants to play a class that tanks and does no damage?
No thanks. There are much better MMO's than this game that allows tanks to do their job in PvP unlike this game.
Only way anything will change is when this game gets away from PWE and Cryptic. Until then nothing will change, nothing will happen, no one will care and in the end...you will all lose. Then you will wonder why your hope of change never came.
Accept it or not that is what is in motion right now and nothing is going to stop unless stated above.
Too many people are in complete denial of what is going on here.
What if nadion inversion granted complete immunity to drain, and also immunity to all debuffs including subnuc while active? it would fill in with thier role of being able to better tank and resist everything.
I think this would make eng much better for pvp, would it be op though?
What if nadion inversion granted complete immunity to drain, and also immunity to all debuffs including subnuc while active? it would fill in with thier role of being able to better tank and resist everything.
I think this would make eng much better for pvp, would it be op though?
I kind of like this idea. However, I think it should be renamed. Since Sci gets something that removes all buffs on an enemy, Eng would be good with a castable clear that removed all debuffs. Providing some immunity would be the icing on the cake.
Comments
I'm pretty sure DDIS's post was refering to Virus's post and not your posts, fyi.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
I've gone back and reread, and I see what you mean.
Hrmmm, I don't see it. Unless he was referring to everybody in a Miranda with no gear, no passives, no BOFFs, etc. Because that's the only place I suggested there was any parity. Then I pointed out the great disparity that arises because of everything else. So with nowhere being a case of everybody in a Miranda...yeah, just don't see him as referring to my post.
not a reference from you, from viruses ever more confusing posts.
people build and use certain ships for certain captains. stick a tac captain in a dedicated eng healer and ther would be a 10% difference in its ability to keep itself alive. no differenec in keeping others alive if its not shot at. thats 100% station powers.
ya, maybe in a premade it wouldn't. but being able to keep the energy weapon damage buff on all the time in pugs and pvpe would be transformative for an eng. im not for balancing for a duel or anything, but if an eng with 125 weapons power, EPtW being completely unable to phase an escort that will shoot at it until it eventually gives up or it kills the eng, that will never sit right with me. a cruiser with 8 weapon slots and 8 energy weapons should never be that harmless.
eng cruisers used to be able to fire and have some sort of effect, at least force heals to be used, why do you not want something even that basic anymore? again, this would only be for eng that use EPtW. an eng scort with room for EPtW wouldn't be quite as fail too, with 4 cannons it could have a bit of an effect actually.
im all for pretty much all you suggest, im not saying they just need to do more damage and they are fixed. that still wont be enough to fix pressure damage.
im all for that. and an engy trait that makes EPtW's energy damage buff last all 30 seconds.
How was what I said confusing?
Cryptic looked at the Captain Abilities and said - these are balanced.
I said that if you put them in a stock Miranda, no extra gear, no passives, etc, etc, etc - then they're pretty balanced.
I then said to add in all the gear, add the passives, add all the rest.. bam - world of difference. Heck, I even said it there in the post. It's a world of difference. Any semblance of balance is lost because of everything that's in the game.
If people just look at the base abilities while ignoring everything else - then it's a fruitless endeavor.
There's only one thing in the game that does not face either diminishing returns or a cap.
That would be fine if:
Career limited...
Skill Selection
Ship Selection
Gear Selection
BOFF & BOFF Ability Selection
STO does that to an extent - on the Ground.
The different Careers have different Skills available to them.
The different Careers have different Kits available to them.
Even there, though - you can still build the Skills out differently and take different Kits for different Roles.
They're trying to force something on the game that is not there. There are a lot of different pieces that one can put together in different ways to attempt to min/max for a specific role, to try to add diversity to handle various situations, etc, etc, etc. Even switching out different parts to do other things... kind of like the Careers on the Ground switching out Kits.
But Cryptic has added so many things - turned it into such a munchkin gaming scenario - with DOFFs, set bonuses, passives, hybrid ships, hybrid weapons, etc, etc, etc... and they continue to add more DOFFs, more sets, more passives, more hybrid ships, more hybrid weapons, etc, etc, etc.
And as each part of that munchkin gaming replaces something else - there is one thing that is not subject to diminishing returns nor any cap. It's always going to be king. Which fits in perfectly with what munchkin gaming is. It's one of the reasons that STO's little more than Hack 'n Slash in Space.
As far as I know Tacs haven't hit a damage cap even with all the addons. Same for Sci debuffing potential (particially b/c of all the buffing to offset it and the more buffs/the stronger the debuff of SNB becomes). It's much easier to hit power and resist caps though. That's the main problem w/Eng abilities at this point, imo.
So, if power and resist caps are easily met @ end game either the caps need to be raised, or another role needs to be flushed out, or another means to achieve the same role needs to be flushed out, or somewhere inbetween if there's a desire to put Eng on a more equal playing field. Again, I'm refering to space.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Starfleet Officer -> Engineering focus with tac/sci flavour options
Klingon Officer -> Tactical focus with eng/sci flavour options
Romulan Officer -> Science focus with tac/eng flavour options
On each rank you would get one main ability, or a choice between two lesser versions of abilites from different a focus.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Unfortunately this neither makes sense to me from a game design perspective, a realistic expectations perspective nor from a Star Trek IP perspective.
It would have been nifty if they had gone with a more Starfleet Divisions/Crew thing with the start and found a way to work that into the KDF (and I guess the Romulans).
Divisions
Command (Conn/Helm/etc)
Operations (Engineering, Tactical, Security, etc)
Science (Science & Medical)
Then take a look at the various "heroes" and "supporting crew" - you'll find that they were usually a mix of two. You might have Command/Tac-Ops, Tac-Ops/Eng-Ops, Sci-Sci/Eng-Ops, etc, etc, etc.
Had folks taken a "primary" and "secondary" specialization - selecting from those...
...oh well, I did a more lengthy post about it out there somewhere - don't have it in me to find it right now. The stuff on Tribble has me figuring that I'm giving up on PvP - and - I'll probably end up playing STO like the girlfriend plays Farmerama.
Exactly spot on! Engies are a dull, boring class to play with, at least in space. They were always like that, but now it's even more than before. Spec the engi right and you just fly in circles pressing spacebar. And you only kill mediocre players. I remember before, an engi in a cruiser could kill an escort most of the time. Now, the best an engi can do is tank 2-3 ships, but speced like that it will never kill anything. No matter what you do with an engi right now, you can't have enough damage to kill a decent opponent. All those heals and resists added lately in the game (consoles, gear in general, rep system) caused the need for an engi to be almost inexistent.
And yea, engis miss the sharp teeth sci and tac have. Or better said, they got dull from all the super resists and heals the game added lately...
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
When I do fly my eng I find myself hardly touching my captain skills because they have no use or bearing on what I'm trying to do
You could argue the eps and nadion assist in beam drain but you have to build using just 4/5 beams with eptw anyway for the times they aren't up
You could argue that whatever the shield heal is called is a mean TSS I cycle two anyway
You could argue that MW Is a mean heal but with the countdown it has its use is extremely limited as a reliable heal
Everything the other two get can not be matched by any Boff power(realistically) and there all a lot better by a huge margin well except photonics fleet which is only really a spam creater in PVP and sucks realistically except when a feddy battleship is spawned and its spamming tractors and repulsors urgh
Someone said earlier an eng escort can do as much damage as a tacscort man you are seriously deluded or doing it wrong
Agreed. I don't really have a lot to add what has already been said about Engineers, but it is really disappointing that Engineers don't offer anything to a team except for keeping themselves alive. Tacs/Scis can tank well enough on their own. At the end of the day, DPS is king so I would like to see Engineers get a boost to damage output and cast-able captain abilities and other abilities that benefit the team.
If they did balance it escorts would ***** about it because C-Store and lockboxes escorts such as the JHAS generate money $$$ for cryptic. This is just politics there playing. It's very obvious enough.
Remember Al Rivera posts about cruisers and beams weapons and eng powers? He said there fine and nothing is wrong with them.
Cruisers well they still as always " Armored knight with a paper sword ". Yea honestly who the hell wants to play a class that tanks and does no damage?
No thanks. There are much better MMO's than this game that allows tanks to do their job in PvP unlike this game.
Only way anything will change is when this game gets away from PWE and Cryptic. Until then nothing will change, nothing will happen, no one will care and in the end...you will all lose. Then you will wonder why your hope of change never came.
Accept it or not that is what is in motion right now and nothing is going to stop unless stated above.
Too many people are in complete denial of what is going on here.
I think this would make eng much better for pvp, would it be op though?
I kind of like this idea. However, I think it should be renamed. Since Sci gets something that removes all buffs on an enemy, Eng would be good with a castable clear that removed all debuffs. Providing some immunity would be the icing on the cake.