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Small Fleets Need a Merger Button
sandee777
Member Posts: 13 Arc User
Here is a topic that has been discussed time and time again with all small fleets. How can PWE expect small fleets to reach Tier 5 Star bases? The answer is simple...it is not their problem. The only concern PWE has is the business aspect of the game such as expected and actual revenue that STO and other games are producing. I am sorry but it had to be said. If I am not mistaken Cryptic has the responsibility of maintaining said expected/actual revenue for STO as well as its development. Obviously, both development and revenue go hand in hand. The better the game the better the revenue and vice-a-versa.
Since the introduction of the Star Bases many small fleets, like other larger fleets, have faced the "the star base grind". Unlike the larger fleets, the small fleets do not have the same contribution capacity. The result then becomes the long slow grind for the small fleets as they work towards their tier 5 Star Base. Let me point out that before Star Bases entered the picture a large portion of the STO community had complaints that there was no end game content. Unfortunately, we still do not have end game content but we do have "the star base grind". Suddenly the whining and complaining of the lack of end game content have dropped significantly. We humans can be such an entertaining lot.
Borg gear has always been what players have sought for since launch. The player was rewarded for accomplishing the STF with some item specifically designed for fighting Borg then it was modified into an if-you-are-lucky-random-drop system. The introduction of the Omega and Romulan Mark system has been long over due. Modeled after the Star Base build for fleets the Omega and Romulan Mark system allows everyone to get better space and ground gear for STF's and some PVP. Some players have discovered that some STF components can be creatively used for PVP kudos to these creatively intelligent players. So now, we have the "Omega and Romulan Mark system...grind". Even though this "grind" is short lived, it does interfere with the "star base grind".
So now, we have no end game content but we do have two sets of grind. Even though each system differs from one to the other both require Dilithium and Energy credits. Now the "grind" becomes a daily repetitive routine. Did I mention that our dilithium farming has changed significantly since the arrival of the Omega and Romulan Mark system? Dilithium farming was dramatically reduced until the STO community banded together with outcries of protests. Since then Cryptic modified the dilithium reward system to a still disgruntled but tolerable level. Yes, we all have read the articles stating that we have more than enough options to gather the dilithium however the casual players that do not have the time to achieve all the farming objectives like other players are at a frustrating disadvantage. Those that do have the time can farm for dilithium and energy credits to hearts content. This means that the casual player is at a greater disadvantage then others in regards to the "grind". Okay that is my plug for the casual players.
Now most fleets have a star base at a tier according to their fleet size in relation to their contribution capacity of regular and casual players. Larger fleets have either reached or completed tier 5 and yet the smaller fleets are still grinding away at their star base. Some fleets have developed a few alliances with other like-minded fleets that have put alts into the smaller fleets in an attempt to increase their fleet contribution capacity thus increasing their "grind" kudos to those players who are so willing to help others.
Taking in consideration of the aforementioned discussion, I propose that a function be added to fleets whereby two fleets have the option to merge and consolidate the 2 Star Bases into one progressed Star Base. Here I define "progressed Star Base" as 1 to 1 ratio of increase. Therefore, if a tier three Star Base is merged with a tier two Star Base then all the fleet xp points and its resources will merge in a 1 to 1 ratio. Considering the amount of fleet xp points and resources is much higher at the next tier this should not be problematic for PWE. Such functionality would be advantageous for smaller fleets to grow not only in size and contribution capacity but in the progress of the Star Base as well.
It would be ill responsible of me not to point out that there are complications from said action in that people will be people and as a result there maybe some behavioral dynamics. Therefore an in depth discussion of command structure and permissions should be discussed before such a merger takes place. At times, a kind of leadership will reveal itself to all sometime after the merger is complete and not always a positive and/or mature in action or leadership.
In conclusion let me just say that there are many benefits and repercussions to any fleet merger but having the choice of merging fleets and the respective Star Bases should be a viable option for the fleet and its members.
Since the introduction of the Star Bases many small fleets, like other larger fleets, have faced the "the star base grind". Unlike the larger fleets, the small fleets do not have the same contribution capacity. The result then becomes the long slow grind for the small fleets as they work towards their tier 5 Star Base. Let me point out that before Star Bases entered the picture a large portion of the STO community had complaints that there was no end game content. Unfortunately, we still do not have end game content but we do have "the star base grind". Suddenly the whining and complaining of the lack of end game content have dropped significantly. We humans can be such an entertaining lot.
Borg gear has always been what players have sought for since launch. The player was rewarded for accomplishing the STF with some item specifically designed for fighting Borg then it was modified into an if-you-are-lucky-random-drop system. The introduction of the Omega and Romulan Mark system has been long over due. Modeled after the Star Base build for fleets the Omega and Romulan Mark system allows everyone to get better space and ground gear for STF's and some PVP. Some players have discovered that some STF components can be creatively used for PVP kudos to these creatively intelligent players. So now, we have the "Omega and Romulan Mark system...grind". Even though this "grind" is short lived, it does interfere with the "star base grind".
So now, we have no end game content but we do have two sets of grind. Even though each system differs from one to the other both require Dilithium and Energy credits. Now the "grind" becomes a daily repetitive routine. Did I mention that our dilithium farming has changed significantly since the arrival of the Omega and Romulan Mark system? Dilithium farming was dramatically reduced until the STO community banded together with outcries of protests. Since then Cryptic modified the dilithium reward system to a still disgruntled but tolerable level. Yes, we all have read the articles stating that we have more than enough options to gather the dilithium however the casual players that do not have the time to achieve all the farming objectives like other players are at a frustrating disadvantage. Those that do have the time can farm for dilithium and energy credits to hearts content. This means that the casual player is at a greater disadvantage then others in regards to the "grind". Okay that is my plug for the casual players.
Now most fleets have a star base at a tier according to their fleet size in relation to their contribution capacity of regular and casual players. Larger fleets have either reached or completed tier 5 and yet the smaller fleets are still grinding away at their star base. Some fleets have developed a few alliances with other like-minded fleets that have put alts into the smaller fleets in an attempt to increase their fleet contribution capacity thus increasing their "grind" kudos to those players who are so willing to help others.
Taking in consideration of the aforementioned discussion, I propose that a function be added to fleets whereby two fleets have the option to merge and consolidate the 2 Star Bases into one progressed Star Base. Here I define "progressed Star Base" as 1 to 1 ratio of increase. Therefore, if a tier three Star Base is merged with a tier two Star Base then all the fleet xp points and its resources will merge in a 1 to 1 ratio. Considering the amount of fleet xp points and resources is much higher at the next tier this should not be problematic for PWE. Such functionality would be advantageous for smaller fleets to grow not only in size and contribution capacity but in the progress of the Star Base as well.
It would be ill responsible of me not to point out that there are complications from said action in that people will be people and as a result there maybe some behavioral dynamics. Therefore an in depth discussion of command structure and permissions should be discussed before such a merger takes place. At times, a kind of leadership will reveal itself to all sometime after the merger is complete and not always a positive and/or mature in action or leadership.
In conclusion let me just say that there are many benefits and repercussions to any fleet merger but having the choice of merging fleets and the respective Star Bases should be a viable option for the fleet and its members.
Post edited by sandee777 on
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What, exactly, do you mean by a 1:1 ratio?
Using your T3 and T2 exemplar, does that mean:
- T3 + T2 = T5 i.e. cumulative sum of both fleet's XP?
- T3 averaged with T2 = T3 (rounding up)?
- T3 averaged with T2 = T2 (rounding down)?
And how does this 1:1 ratio-ing address the potential for small fleets to simply send members to set up five small T1 fleets using the lower-cost projects, and merge to form a T5?
Just merge the obtained XP in each section of the base, mil, eng, sci, embassy etc point for point.
Problem solved, nothing is lost, and progress is also not accelerated.
But what is the definition of merge in this context? Is it simply adding up all of the XP, or would averages be taken?
Concrete examples pl0x.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
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look at the XP's
T0 to T4 it's 60% of 100%
from T4 to T5 it's 40% of 100%
It would be practically the same as reducing cooldown of the projects to 1s. You can just start same project 1000x and merge the fleets after finishing. I don't understand how you can't see it.
To do this, all you need is 5000 players, or at least 1004, who decide that NOW is the time to start all of this. They have resources stacked up and available, but haven't spent any of it, and are all willing to work together to make this happen. If you HAD that many players, they'd already have spent the resources on their existing fleets, and would be late T4 or, more likely, T5 anyway. The same goes for 100 active players, or even 50. Fewer than that, and you're looking at the very fleets this idea seeks to assist. So there isn't a market for heavy exploitation.
Are you saying you want all fleets to share one starbase? Now you have a much more complex code environment, where each fleet's contributions must somehow be tracked and rewarded appropriately. Else, what do you do when fleets dissolve the relationship? And if you make it a permanent decision, then you have a single fleet with sixteen different names and rank structures. All MMOs require you to choose between joining a big guild/fleet/whatever, or having a unique identity, and giving up the big-group benefits until your smaller group can do it themselves. However, on other MMOs, it doesn't require nearly as much effort to level a new guild. A small but active guild on WoW would be approaching level 25 this many months after the mechanic came out on STO. Small fleets here are all T2, and some T3. Since Cryptic chose to present such a barrier to progress as they did, we ask that we be allowed to take the millions of dil we've poured into our fleets, and just combine them into a single fleet.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~BranFlakes
And how does that work in terms of Starbases? You get 5 or 10 or 20 starbases for the cost of 1? You have to all grind for one of the other allied fleets? and have to use that starbase?
I'm not saying the idea is bad, I'm just not sure how it would work out.
I'm in a small fleet of friends that all played prior to Starbases even being announced, we are stuck with the upgrade to T1 starbase in queue. I put a ton of personal effort into this useless base and feel kind of stuck here. I'd feel like a leech if I tried to find a larger fleet, because I don't have anything to offer, its all in my dead starbase, and I don't see the fleet growing, so my only hope is a pooling of resources of some kind, but I don't want to just be the resource collector for another fleet either.
Firstly, I'd prefer you spell my forum handle correctly, thank you very much.
Secondly, as there have been numerous proposals on the forums on various ways to adjust the sum of contributions from two or more fleets, it was not apparent from the explanation that the merging was from the actual value of the XP earned, and not simply adding tier numbers.
Finally, I find that personal attack extremely rude.
+1 Absolutely AGREE!!!!
That's kind of the issue I have with that idea...I am not sure how the distribution of resources would be to anyone's benefit to reduce the grind. That's why I support the merger idea instead.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
NO you don't share a Fleet Starbase or even resource projects, you only share progress in building a starbase.
Meaning if Fleet A is still at Tier 1, Fleet B is at Tier 2, an alliance would build up Fleet A to the same level as Fleet B and you progress together and get to Tier 3 at the same time. Or that the progress is even and Fleet B will hit the next Tier before Fleet A will, since Fleet A started off with a small disadvantage being one tier lower. But when they hit Tier 5, the alliance continues and Fleet A will get to Tier 5 as a Team.
And I've played many MMOs since Everquest, and I don't recall a single one "requires you to choose between joining a big guild". Choose a side yes, but never force you to join a guild.
Easy math man, if 3 individual fleets have 15 people total, would progress the same as a single fleet that has........15 people. So if you get a bunch of fleets and equal to the size of a large fleet, then you will have the progress of a large fleet.
Limits and such, would ultimately be up to Cryptic. Like the alliance system only working fleets under 20-30 people, and limiting the alliance to two or three fleets. You know, so there is no farming fleets established by Goldfarmers.
Large Fleets could benefit as well, where they could take a small fleet under their wings and dump resources into the small fleet (they earn much needed Fleet Marks, while the small one moves forward).
Of course, for the community's sake, there likely be somekind of limit like Fleets have to be 6 months old so they don't end up making an alt fleet just to level that up instead of assisting Fleets in Need.
That sort of thing.
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So one project would yield progress to multiple starbases. Full credit to each, no less. I think most of the community will agree when I say Cryptic is highly unlikely to want anything to do with that idea. If they were willing to up the rewards/reduce the costs of these projects then we'd likely not even be having this conversation.
Ah, the straw man argument. Argued by many to be contemptible. By most, accepted as a sign of weakness. Seldom really held up as desirable. If you don't want the benefits, you're right, you're not forced to choose a guild. Again, in which case, we aren't having this discussion, because your non-existent guild doesn't have a starbase or an alliance. If you want the benefits of guild membership, you get a big one to have help leveling, or a small one, and dig in for the long haul. On STO, however, the haul is REALLY long. Unless you're born2bwild1. Grats on that.
Your alliance calls for a new mechanic, as does the OP's merger, but yours remains in force, while the merger, once completed, ceases to operate. The fleets are merged, the XP amounts are updated, and the mechanic shuts down. The desired operation is simple enough it could be done manually by the devs. The window for bugs is closed. Your alliance, on the other hand, requires the sharing mechanic to function with every completed project in every allied fleet. That's a LOT of opportunities for failure.
And finally, the OP put a lot of work into his thread. You want to hi-jack it for a concept you didn't even bother to really illuminate in your first post. You didn't describe your mechanic until your second post, when you had to respond to your critics. Next time, make your own thread, don't hi-jack, and try to polish your post a little.
I think Azurian's idea a very good one since small fleets don't have to give up their work or leave for another fleet. They can stay with their friends and progress with other fleets, which is a good example of Star Trek's togetherness. Much better than merging and possibily getting into a fight and having to start all over.
I doubt they would ever allow multiple fleets to work together to get multiple starbases for the cost of one.
However, I could see them allowing T5 fleets to adopt smaller fleets to sink resources into for earning Fleet Credits, assuming it also gives some other benefit to the large fleet to do so.
Yeah...the math on the alliance idea just doesn't add up, and furthermore I doubt Cryptic would go for something that, as I read azurianstar's idea, would actually reduce the costs of the projects themselves, dramatically. (The whole multiple starbases for the price of one thing.). What's in it for Cryptic but a huge loss and reduced demand on dilithium and Therefore more people able to grind dil for Zen instead of buying Zen with money, which they need to keep the game alive?
With a fleet merger system, the ultimate amount of each economic input remains the same. Cryptic does not have to fear a massive surge in players' ability to use the dilithium exchange in lieu of buying it. And face it...Cryptic IS trying to limit our ability to do so, and that fact will not change.
But what a player gets out of a merger is seeing progress more quickly, and once they have hit T5, increased ability by the fleet to run and fund projects to get them all the goodies they have waited for. And with less frustration. It's still the same economy, but the player feels less boxed into a grind.
Finally--there are some fleets out there that already desire to merge due to their existing alliances (out of game, in Teamspeak and places like that) being so strong that they want the ability to merge regardless.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Well Stahl said on Ask Cryptic they are working on something, so you never know.
But surely there is no harm with one or two fleets working together in mutual cooperation. After all as they get in higher teirs, there is a likely increase in people buying Zen to turn into Dilithium and buying Zen to buy Fleet Modules for Fleet ships. At the same time, with increased progress, that's less players giving up in frustration, thus retaining a playerbase. Which surely is what Cryptic values.
You have my positive vote!
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However, in a distant corner of Federation Space is my old Starbase, populated by the ever-faithful NPCs and an Alt or two I kept in the first fleet as caretakers, bin-emptiers and the like. All the effort we put into that base is still there - it'd be lovely if we could merge the old and new fleet into one, and ship however much Fleet XP we had in the old fleet over to the new. It won't get us up a tier, it may not even push the bar along more than a few pixels. But it'd help. And more importantly, perhaps, it'd make all that effort worth it.
Bear in mind, the ultimate goal of this plan would be to get all resources converted into XP, so that that XP from the smaller fleet can be added without being diluted in any way, to the larger destination fleet.
To get this to work, some time will be required on the part of the two fleets, but this is probably the best way to make it happen without losing any of the economic inputs (fleet marks, experience, dilithium, DOFFS, etc.).
One thing that is almost a given is that the two fleets being merged will not be running the same projects at the same time. So the only way to roll one into the other is to get those projects converted into XP. There is likely not a mechanic already in-game to convert partway-finished projects into a percentage amount of XP--and we do not want for there either to be a bugged attempt to do so, or for the resources in the in-progress projects to simply be vaporized.
So what should happen to the smaller fleet that wishes to be absorbed by a larger fleet when they press the "Merge" button is this.
All projects currently being contributed to (i.e. the 4 or 5 projects on the left side) should be required to be finished before the merger takes place. All projects queued but NOT yet being contributed to (i.e. the projects on the right side) should be deleted. Nothing lost here, since no resources have been put in yet. The merger will complete once all starbase and embassy projects on the smaller fleet are complete, and the merger is as simple as adding up the total XP in all 4 categories (starbase, military, engineering, and science).
We know this kind of "freeze" mechanic already exists, given what happens when you activate the "Upgrade to Tier ___" project: once you've started that one, you cannot add any more projects until the upgrade project is complete. This is similar, with the one addition that the "right-side" projects with no contributions yet would need to be purged as well.
This means there will be a delay before the merger comes into effect, but it will ensure all fleet members' contributions are properly recognized and accounted for, with no loss (to include financial loss, given that some dilithium may have been bought with real money--a fact that cannot be understated when it comes to how to do this in an honest manner).
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
It could be more elaborate, with different liquidate projects to emphasize specific resources or eng/sci/tac XP.
I assume the provisions would be bound to account, at least. I suppose access to the Claim button should be limited to members who can add projects.
Exactly how much a provision is worth can be done in a variety of ways. There could be different provision flavors - credits, dil, doffs, commodities, gear. There could be only 1 type that provides a fixed amount of each resource type, no change given. Alternately it could work by a cost calculation.
Doing it this way would allow fleet members to take a share and part ways. Of course it is up to the leaders to manage the process fairly, but it would be more flexible than a straight merge.
I have the same problem, and saw the need for something this a long time ago. We are trapped in our fixer-upper starbase. I wonder how many players have just cut their losses and walked away. I certainly would be interested, even if there was a significant cost incurred.