test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Turn Rate Maths (need help)
bareel
Member Posts: 3 Arc User
So I was bored and decided to try and find out how the game calculates turn rates for fun and wow. I am either missing something huge or their may be a bug of sorts.
The method STO uses for it's math is pretty basic and universal across many systems including shield totals, boff abilities, shield regen, weapon damage, and several others I'm sure that I'm forgetting about. You have a base value, stuff adds to that base value typically calculated as a % of it, then that total gets multiplied by any true modifiers to give a final value.
For the test I used a Tac Oddy and Defiant. I learned that the vast majority of modifiers are additive in nature I will list below. To find this I simply went to tribble, cleared out any skills that may interfere, and then watched how the numbers changed when I methodically added each item.
- Engine Power
- [Turn] mod on Engines
- Starship Impulse Thruster Skill
- RCS Consoles
- Turn Rate boosting Boff abilities
The way those all work is that they give a flat bonus that is added to the base and to one another. Meaning if you start at 10 turn rate and use an RCS console to gain another 2 turn rate you will have 12. If you instead raise engine power by enough to gain 2 turn rate for a total of 12 and then add the same RCS console it will still only provide 2 turn rate for a total of 14.
I also realized some strange things that make absolutely no sense to me.
- Boff buffs do not stack. If you activate EM3, Aux2Damp, and APO you will only gain the boost from one, not all three.
- Engine type, rank, and quality have absolutely no effect at all.
Now here is where it gets really weird. As I stated before I used a base Defiant and a Tactical Oddessy. In the chart below I will compare the changes in turn rates.
Base Amount: Defiant (17) Oddy (6)
In Space 25 Power Mod: Defiant (20.7/+3.7) Oddy (6.8/+.8)
+30% RCS Mod: Defiant (24.9/+4.2) Oddy (7.7/+.9)
+Turn Engine Mod: Defiant (22.1/+1.4) Oddy (7.1/+.3)
+141% Aux 2 Damp Mod: Defiant (40.5/+19.8) Oddy (11.0/+4.2)
All above combined: Defiant (46.1) Oddy (12.2)
Now this makes absolutely no sense to me. So the next logical step is to find some %s and see if they make any sense.
% of listed base / Defiant / Oddy
Power Mod: D (22%) / O (13%)
RCS Mod: D (25%) / O (15%)
+Turn Mod: D (8%) / O (5%)
Aux 2 Damp: D (115%) / (70%)
Combined: D (171%) / (103%)
Ok that was interesting. If the defiant is getting 100% of the bonus so to speak that means the oddessy is only receiving about 60% of the bonus. The only other factor I can think of is the inertia values. Defiant has 70 while the Oddy has 20. The only conclusion I can make is that the inertia value is somehow creating the difference in which case...
Why are slow turning ships penalized twice? ARGH. It is the same as the beam issue they have lower damage to begin with, which is fine, but then the energy drain mechanics give them a double penalty whammy which messes it all up. /rant off.
But no seriously does anyone know the role inertia plays or am I missing something?
The method STO uses for it's math is pretty basic and universal across many systems including shield totals, boff abilities, shield regen, weapon damage, and several others I'm sure that I'm forgetting about. You have a base value, stuff adds to that base value typically calculated as a % of it, then that total gets multiplied by any true modifiers to give a final value.
For the test I used a Tac Oddy and Defiant. I learned that the vast majority of modifiers are additive in nature I will list below. To find this I simply went to tribble, cleared out any skills that may interfere, and then watched how the numbers changed when I methodically added each item.
- Engine Power
- [Turn] mod on Engines
- Starship Impulse Thruster Skill
- RCS Consoles
- Turn Rate boosting Boff abilities
The way those all work is that they give a flat bonus that is added to the base and to one another. Meaning if you start at 10 turn rate and use an RCS console to gain another 2 turn rate you will have 12. If you instead raise engine power by enough to gain 2 turn rate for a total of 12 and then add the same RCS console it will still only provide 2 turn rate for a total of 14.
I also realized some strange things that make absolutely no sense to me.
- Boff buffs do not stack. If you activate EM3, Aux2Damp, and APO you will only gain the boost from one, not all three.
- Engine type, rank, and quality have absolutely no effect at all.
Now here is where it gets really weird. As I stated before I used a base Defiant and a Tactical Oddessy. In the chart below I will compare the changes in turn rates.
Base Amount: Defiant (17) Oddy (6)
In Space 25 Power Mod: Defiant (20.7/+3.7) Oddy (6.8/+.8)
+30% RCS Mod: Defiant (24.9/+4.2) Oddy (7.7/+.9)
+Turn Engine Mod: Defiant (22.1/+1.4) Oddy (7.1/+.3)
+141% Aux 2 Damp Mod: Defiant (40.5/+19.8) Oddy (11.0/+4.2)
All above combined: Defiant (46.1) Oddy (12.2)
Now this makes absolutely no sense to me. So the next logical step is to find some %s and see if they make any sense.
% of listed base / Defiant / Oddy
Power Mod: D (22%) / O (13%)
RCS Mod: D (25%) / O (15%)
+Turn Mod: D (8%) / O (5%)
Aux 2 Damp: D (115%) / (70%)
Combined: D (171%) / (103%)
Ok that was interesting. If the defiant is getting 100% of the bonus so to speak that means the oddessy is only receiving about 60% of the bonus. The only other factor I can think of is the inertia values. Defiant has 70 while the Oddy has 20. The only conclusion I can make is that the inertia value is somehow creating the difference in which case...
Why are slow turning ships penalized twice? ARGH. It is the same as the beam issue they have lower damage to begin with, which is fine, but then the energy drain mechanics give them a double penalty whammy which messes it all up. /rant off.
But no seriously does anyone know the role inertia plays or am I missing something?
Post edited by bareel on
0
Comments
The higher your inertia rating, the more direct and quicker your ship reacts to movement changes.
What Inertia does is that it makes your ship accelerate more quickly. Ships with relatively high turn rates but low Inertia values (which corresponds to a high physical inertia... STO Devs kinda messed up kinematics so that those unfamiliar with physics would see that high number = good) will "power slide" as the nose turns but the mass of the ship continues moving on the previous direction, only slowly turning its velocity to match its direction. It's most noticeable with a ship like the Bortasqu' trying to pull a reverse-impulse maneuver (or something similar) as Evasive Maneuvers wears off.
Thank you! That works out perfectly mate.
Defiant base = 14 *.3 = 4.2 which is what the 30% RCS consoles established.
Oddy base = 3 * .3 = .9 which also matches up.
A turn Mod would then be a 10% boost which matches up with other gear mods. Skill I think is 15% then and so forth. I will do more testing later to list all the actual % mods at some point unless there is a post already done about it that I missed.
Thanks again!
I know it works this way with RCS, I'm not entirely sure with the others (I haven't bothered to run the math), but I have my suspicions.
It does from the testing I did. That -3 to find base works perfectly to model all the things I tested.
- Engine type, rank, and quality have absolutely no effect at all." from OP
Engines matter for turnrate, idk why you didn't see this. I've stacked turnrate buffs before. What map are you testing on, is it in system space? What engine power levels were you using?
Also, fyi the Omega shield energy wake procs adjust the ship's inertia value. I'm not sure what if anything else does.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
3 + (Turn rate -3) * (1 + (all turn bonuses in percentages/100) + Engine power level / 100) + turn bonus of your engine
However, I saved that file when I did the turn rate research in like season 2-3. The thread is probably hidden deep in the "archived" threads.
All of the turn bonuses stack. A 50% increase to turn rate its a 0,5 turn multiplied by your actual base turn rate. So a Ship with 6 turn rate, gets +3 from the bonus, while the ship with 22turn rate *spits on the ground* gets +11.
That means if you stacked turn bonuses for total of 200%, a Galaxy would get meager +12 turn while the bug *spits again* would get +44 just from the modifiers.
But I could be totaly wrong about this, as I said, last time I did proper research on this, it was like season 3.
turn_rate = base_turn_rate + (base_turn_rate - 3) * (0.38 * impulse_thrusters_skill / 99 + engine_power / 100 + bonus_from_consoles + bonus_from_engines).
I'm reasonably sure the above formula is accurate, though I haven't tested turn rates in a while. The factor of 0.38 modifying impulse thrusters skill might be a little off. The above formula doesn't include boff abilities; I would also be interested in knowing how they fit into this.
Skills and bonuses also affect the turn rate at full stop, but because the effect is so small, I cannot infer what the exact formula is.
This is not quite correct. The turn bonus of your engines is multiplied by your base turn rate minus 3. Also, your formula does not include the skill "Starship Impulse Thrusters".
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
First you must determine the ship's true base turn rate. Simply take the rate listed in the store and subtract 3. All bonuses are additive and applied as a percentage of that base. Don't worry I'll show an example at the end.
Engine Power provides a 1% mod per 1 point of power.
[Turn] Mod on engines provides a 10% mod per. Keep in mind many set engines have this mod on them but do not say that they do.
Skill Mod is roughly .37 ish close as I can get. So if it is maxed it would be .999 * .37 for 37% roughly.
Boff abilities list their % mod.
Consoles list their % mod.
So lets take the oddessy with a listed turn rate of 6. Maxed out skill, two engine mods, and 55 engine power. No consoles.
Base Turn Rate (6-3) = 3
Skill Mod (.999 * .37) = .37
[Turn] Mod (.1 * 2) = .2
Power Mod (.01 * 55) = .55
Base * (All Mods Added) = Bonus Turn
3 * (.37 + .2 + .55) = 3.36
Listed Turn + Bonus Turn = Actual Turn
3.36 + 6 = 9.36
Or you could use this formula
(Listed Turn - 3) * (1+ Skill Mod + [Turn] Mod + Power Mod + Console Mod) + 3 = Actual Turn Rate.
Now for giggles let us determine the actual turn rate differences most will encounter. Most will have around 50 engine power and 6 ranks in the skill with ah lets say a single turn mod on the engine. That's a 91% bonus.
6 Listed Turn = 8.73
9 Listed Turn = 14.46
12 Listed Turn = 20.19
18 Listed Turn = 31.65
5.73 is what the turn rate difference becomes in reality for every 3 difference you start with for the above example. Bah.
Actually, the most "fun" part about turn rate is that turn consoles are 3x as effective on escorts. So a galaxy for example would need 3 such consoles to get same benefit as defiant with single one. That's clear disadvantage to cruisers, as no other console scales this way on this magnitute.
Imagine the cry from escort fliers if armor consoles would be only 1/3 effective on escorts and you would have to equip 3 to get the same benift as cruiser with 1.
Perhaps they should make that change.
Escorts end up with a larger bonus from RCS due to base... Sci ships get a larger boost from field gens. Why not... Good idea Dalnar. +1
Escorts are shield/defense tanks anyway... anyone with more then one armour unit on a escort is a moron.
I'm serious though... your right the armour unit calc should work of the base hull numbers... it would suck hard for brels but it would be logical. They could also make armour units make more sense... they can become +10-30% style instead of the confusing +30s ect. The more I think about its probaly time the hull resistance "armour" math got a once over and converted to system that works the same way as shields cap/shield reg/turn ... perhaps its time everything worked in the same way.
Well, cruisers do get more effective hull hps from armor consoles even now. But the difference is not 300%. Because the latest escorts have hull rivaling the cruisers.
Actually, it does not make sense that turn consoles or "engineering systems" in general would be worse of cruisers just because they are large. The RCS generator would just be a lot of bigger. Hence I would prefer if all consoles had same effect in all ships.
Armor = simple dmg reduction per hit
RCS = flat turn rate bonus
etc.
Because it kinda feels bad, when you give a ship 5 engineering console slot, only to realize the main engineering console is 1/3 effective (1/4 compared to bug) on that ship...
Best 'fix' I can think of personally is to add a second type of console, or modifier for engine, that does in fact increase the base by a set value. Anything else will get...messy.
Or alternately they could just realize turn rate of a whale = not fun and simply increase all turn rates by say 3 and be done with it.
PS: Just checked out the rest of this forum and got the math. So where does inertia come in? I got lost on that one...
KDF Commander Inuni IKS Ornovus
ROM Centurion Aer RRW Scientology :cool: