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An Alternative Approach
bareel
Member Posts: 3 Arc User
The question everyone wants to answer is what should happen so cruisers and science vessels are more desirable by the playerbase? Right now all the content can be completed by any mixture of ships and that in and of itself is a very good thing. I applaud the Dev team for the decisions they have made to allow this. After all, how many of us truly want to be forced to wait around for the 'perfect team' composition before we play the game? Do we want to be forced to bring a specific ship or combination of ships to have any hope of success? Speaking for myself the answer is no.
But their is a problem with the current state of the game. Everyone wants escorts, they want to fly an escort and they want their teammates to fly escorts because escorts are perceived as being simply 'better' at completing the content thanks to their high DPS. And here I will provide an alternative approach to making all three ships desirable primarily via a Force Multiplier approach. It is long, and the changes are all connected and must be viewed as part of a whole instead of individually. Also even if you have no input beyond 'that would be awesome' or 'that would suck' please share your view.
NPC Modifications
Right now NPCs deal ton's of projectile damage, usually in large bursts, and a minor amount of energy damage. This makes shield tanking too effective, hull tanking ineffective, and leads to one shots. Many of them seem to have little to no defense score making accuracy less important and most do not distribute their shields.
In addition Exotic effects (Grav. Well, Viral Matrix, Etc) which are balanced around use on players tend to be under performing against the swarms of NPCs, and the bosses are simply immune. Their needs to be a three tier system with the NPCs when it comes to these things.
Immunity is bad. Look their is no difference between a ship tanking the boss damage with impunity, shredding it's shield in seconds, or debuffing the boss so it has no shield or does little damage. I don't think it will be game breaking for a tac cube to loose it's guns to a viral matrix for 3 seconds, or even 9 seconds really. It is supposed to explode in the end anyway. The escort pilot feels powerful as he shreds the things health, let the sci vessel pilot feel powerful at the same time.
Sci Boff Abilities/Vessels
The NPC changes listed above will do leaps and bounds to improve Sci. Remember when you loved having a Sci in your STF so they could turn the boss into a kitten? Good times. But I want to go a step further.
Shield Stripping abilities must apply a penalty to the target's shield resistance. This would be a huge boon to any group with them. And not via Doffs please this is a basic capability that needs to be on the abilities.
Debuffs Added to current abilities. Wouldn't it be great if Gravity Well applied an additional defense debuff on top of the speed penalty it kinda sorta applies? Things like that, and they can be doff related.
Sensor Analysis should benefit the entire group. Even if it is only a 1% damage boost per stack that would be a nice little beanie I would think.
Eng Boff Abilities/Vessels
Again the NPC changes above will help out tremendously. Hull tanking is what cruisers are good at (in theory) and the armor slot would only improve that. Note though that I don't think they should be required to tank things, just have an easier time doing it via hull. In addition boarding parties will become useful (maybe) and aceton beam might not be junk if 2/3rds of the NPC damage was from energy weapons.
That's not enough though. When I think about a cruisers role in an engagement, beyond the silly notion of space tank anyway, only one thing comes to mind and that is command and control. Which then reminds me of bards (EQ) and paladins (WoW) or Auras.
C&C abilities could be attached to the ship, or to engineering boffs. They would be simple group buffs that could increase anything from damage, power levels, shield regeneration, and so on. This would bring a smile to your face when you enter an STF and a cruiser warps in behind you activating their 'Co-ordinated Targeting Subroutine' granting you a 5% boost to accuracy and critical severity.
New Abilities for engineering boffs would also be nice. If you want cruisers/engineer to fill a support role they need abilities that help out the entire group either directly or indirectly. Aceton beam is a good example of indirect aid and don't get me wrong extend shields is amazing but how applicable to a PuG setting is it? Instead something that works like Nanite Health Monitor in space would be great. So would a 'launch repair shuttles' ability that launches say three shuttles that then go to the ally with the lowest hull automatically with a short delay. Things that do not require special keybinds, quick reflexes, or an ally's co-ordination but still provide support is what we need.
Conclusion
The purpose of these suggestions, the point I am attempting to drive home, is that we should not be forced into roles or required to bring any ship type to group content. That would hurt the game I think. Instead we should be looking for ways to want those roles in our groups. Desirability is good, forced is bad.
PS
I also really think something needs to be done to reduce the gap between those who min/max out a build and those who casually put one together. This gap simply continues to grow and it is a Bad Thing if you ask me.
Abilities that are taken on every ship with every build should be closely examined such as Tactical Team, Emergency Power to Shields, and Hazard Emitters. This is not to say the abilities need nerfed, they might they might not. Perhaps the game mechanics need adjusted and that will have an effect by indirectly nerfing them such as by reducing the effect of shield power on shield regeneration, or by adding the ability to auto fire shield redistribution.
And on that note the UI may need examined as well. I can make a keybind in a minute that will allow me to hit CTRL + 1 to 4 to spam all my heals on ally 1 to 4. That gives me a massive advantage in say a PvP spider heal engagement over someone who does not have those keybinds. Not to mention the shield redistribute issue.
Finally that brings us to beam arrays. Now don't get me wrong if you push your 'hidden weapon power reserve' to about 50 over and use the rommie beam typically on an A2Bat build possibly even tossing in DEM for the doff you can get good milage out of them. But the average player? Yeah. Best solution is to simply make them fire only twice during a cycle as that helps out the average player immensely without making them any stronger for the min/max player such as myself.
But their is a problem with the current state of the game. Everyone wants escorts, they want to fly an escort and they want their teammates to fly escorts because escorts are perceived as being simply 'better' at completing the content thanks to their high DPS. And here I will provide an alternative approach to making all three ships desirable primarily via a Force Multiplier approach. It is long, and the changes are all connected and must be viewed as part of a whole instead of individually. Also even if you have no input beyond 'that would be awesome' or 'that would suck' please share your view.
NPC Modifications
- Increase Energy Damage Output
- Decrease Projectile Damage Output
- Increase Base Defense
- Add Passive Shield Distribution
- Change Exotic Resistances
Right now NPCs deal ton's of projectile damage, usually in large bursts, and a minor amount of energy damage. This makes shield tanking too effective, hull tanking ineffective, and leads to one shots. Many of them seem to have little to no defense score making accuracy less important and most do not distribute their shields.
In addition Exotic effects (Grav. Well, Viral Matrix, Etc) which are balanced around use on players tend to be under performing against the swarms of NPCs, and the bosses are simply immune. Their needs to be a three tier system with the NPCs when it comes to these things.
- Minion: Double duration/effects (negative resist)
- Standard: Standard
- Boss: Halve duration/effects (positive resist)
Immunity is bad. Look their is no difference between a ship tanking the boss damage with impunity, shredding it's shield in seconds, or debuffing the boss so it has no shield or does little damage. I don't think it will be game breaking for a tac cube to loose it's guns to a viral matrix for 3 seconds, or even 9 seconds really. It is supposed to explode in the end anyway. The escort pilot feels powerful as he shreds the things health, let the sci vessel pilot feel powerful at the same time.
Sci Boff Abilities/Vessels
The NPC changes listed above will do leaps and bounds to improve Sci. Remember when you loved having a Sci in your STF so they could turn the boss into a kitten? Good times. But I want to go a step further.
Shield Stripping abilities must apply a penalty to the target's shield resistance. This would be a huge boon to any group with them. And not via Doffs please this is a basic capability that needs to be on the abilities.
Debuffs Added to current abilities. Wouldn't it be great if Gravity Well applied an additional defense debuff on top of the speed penalty it kinda sorta applies? Things like that, and they can be doff related.
Sensor Analysis should benefit the entire group. Even if it is only a 1% damage boost per stack that would be a nice little beanie I would think.
Eng Boff Abilities/Vessels
Again the NPC changes above will help out tremendously. Hull tanking is what cruisers are good at (in theory) and the armor slot would only improve that. Note though that I don't think they should be required to tank things, just have an easier time doing it via hull. In addition boarding parties will become useful (maybe) and aceton beam might not be junk if 2/3rds of the NPC damage was from energy weapons.
That's not enough though. When I think about a cruisers role in an engagement, beyond the silly notion of space tank anyway, only one thing comes to mind and that is command and control. Which then reminds me of bards (EQ) and paladins (WoW) or Auras.
C&C abilities could be attached to the ship, or to engineering boffs. They would be simple group buffs that could increase anything from damage, power levels, shield regeneration, and so on. This would bring a smile to your face when you enter an STF and a cruiser warps in behind you activating their 'Co-ordinated Targeting Subroutine' granting you a 5% boost to accuracy and critical severity.
New Abilities for engineering boffs would also be nice. If you want cruisers/engineer to fill a support role they need abilities that help out the entire group either directly or indirectly. Aceton beam is a good example of indirect aid and don't get me wrong extend shields is amazing but how applicable to a PuG setting is it? Instead something that works like Nanite Health Monitor in space would be great. So would a 'launch repair shuttles' ability that launches say three shuttles that then go to the ally with the lowest hull automatically with a short delay. Things that do not require special keybinds, quick reflexes, or an ally's co-ordination but still provide support is what we need.
Conclusion
The purpose of these suggestions, the point I am attempting to drive home, is that we should not be forced into roles or required to bring any ship type to group content. That would hurt the game I think. Instead we should be looking for ways to want those roles in our groups. Desirability is good, forced is bad.
PS
I also really think something needs to be done to reduce the gap between those who min/max out a build and those who casually put one together. This gap simply continues to grow and it is a Bad Thing if you ask me.
Abilities that are taken on every ship with every build should be closely examined such as Tactical Team, Emergency Power to Shields, and Hazard Emitters. This is not to say the abilities need nerfed, they might they might not. Perhaps the game mechanics need adjusted and that will have an effect by indirectly nerfing them such as by reducing the effect of shield power on shield regeneration, or by adding the ability to auto fire shield redistribution.
And on that note the UI may need examined as well. I can make a keybind in a minute that will allow me to hit CTRL + 1 to 4 to spam all my heals on ally 1 to 4. That gives me a massive advantage in say a PvP spider heal engagement over someone who does not have those keybinds. Not to mention the shield redistribute issue.
Finally that brings us to beam arrays. Now don't get me wrong if you push your 'hidden weapon power reserve' to about 50 over and use the rommie beam typically on an A2Bat build possibly even tossing in DEM for the doff you can get good milage out of them. But the average player? Yeah. Best solution is to simply make them fire only twice during a cycle as that helps out the average player immensely without making them any stronger for the min/max player such as myself.
Post edited by bareel on
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Comments
The end result of the damage changes should be higher DPS from NPCs with lower burst - this will make tanking and healing more important.
As mentioned above, certain skills should be shared across all professions -- shield auto-balancing like that given by Tactical Team is one example. I would like to see other new be considered, like rotating weapon frequencies, adjusting shield harmonics, and other canon-like abilities that all professions can slot (exact funtions TBD later). This will allow for better rounded ship builds so that different ship types have better performance parity. While I did suggest this a while back, many adamantly opposed it. Now that we have the present scenario of "STO = Escorts Online," I'm hoping more people will at least consider shared profession skills moving forward.
I would also like to expand on your idea of C&C for cruisers maybe making them carrier command style giving an offensive buff a neutral buff and a defensive buff.
Otherwise however, love this idea
And is it a good thing that it is a semi-required lifeline? Or does that highlight the problems within the mechanics? Such as the strength of shield power in general, importance of always on resistance, squishiness of ships without those two things, and so on
Just trying to open up the conversation is all. And thanks for the support of the ideas guys.
No it is not a good thing but a buff to NPC damage would only serve to make it even more required so why not counter balance (certainly in pvp) by using it as the standard for the other EPtX skills, thereby making EPtW a direct counter and making EPtE worth something to cruisers rather than having an effect for only 5 seconds.
If EPtS was brought back in line with the other EPtX skills it would be better to use twin TSS' and EPtS would become a shield heal and it's use phased out. I also agree with those saying shield distro should be added to ET and ST allowing ships with low numbers of tac slots to slot something more useful to the team.
This won't really help players who currently own the older ships but will likely make thigns better overall going forward. Of the recent sci vessels and cruisers hardly anyone complaints, its mostly the older designs.
Edit: It would be wise to consider what a rework of the ship system will mean to STO's finances. Even mighty Blizz prefers to leave in imbalances and not make things work more smoothly because they KNOW what wide ranging changes will really do to their bottom line. This is why you see Cryptic realease ships more suited to the way the game is now, but again... fans of the older ships are mostly SOL.
What changed in the last two seasons to cause that damage drop?
Attack Pattern Beta would be my guess. As far as I know they have not changed beams at all post F2P.
It's been my experience as a long time MMO player and surveyor of forums that devs often say those things when:
A: they don't want to admit to he public that they messed up and will then be required to fix the game
B: they don't want to spend the resources on making balance work properly because they are already using personnel on other projects that will most likely bring in new revenue.
I agree entirely that supporting diversity (in everything -- powers, builds, classes, ships) is highly desirable for the long term health of the game. If one thing is clearly "the best", people will gravitate toward it, and game play becomes much less involving as a result. But that topic is worthy of its own essay.
I think there has always been a thread about (Federation) cruisers not doing enough damage, and another thread about tacs doing far more damage than everybody else in space, but the recent outcries about beam arrays being too weak, about tacs being the only useful character class in space for PvE, and about escorts being strictly better than cruisers are all new themes. Very little has changed in s7 with regard to beam arrays in PvE, and very little has changed about the PvE enemies they are being shot at -- almost all the recent changes can only have increased the damage of beam arrays in PvE, in fact. I suspect these are largely spillover from PvP perceptions, as the value of beam arrays has definitely changed in PvP.
I can think of several factors that might have changed these overall perceptions and possibly the reality of the situation, but I find it difficult to put my finger on any single cause. Possibilities that come to mind include:
- a general increase in durability of all ships from gear and reputation passives in s7, giving escorts "enough tank" to increase their on target time instead of needing to maintain high speed and defense for survivability. The effect on PvP seems even more significant, but I'm trying to focus primarily on changes in PvE
- the slight nerf in Fire at Will damage, combined with the removal of 100% accuracy for Fire at Will (compounded further by the recent discovery that weapon qualities are not applied for Fire at Will, but this has a much greater effect in PvP than PvE)... this was a long time before s7, but it may have contributed to FaW not being used by many up to date cruiser builds
- the increase in doffs that reduce power cooldowns of all sorts, increasing tac power up times. Although there are now many hybrid ships with Lt Cmdr tac stations, escorts of course have the greatest access to tac stations, which are the only ones which provide powers giving direct increases to damage. Perhaps escorts benefit the most from the use of CD decreasing doffs.
- large boosts to crit rates, from boffs, consoles, and reputation passives. These provide a multiplicative boost to damage overall.
That's quite a few changes, but I wonder if I'm missing something. What else could have affected the value of beam arrays, cruisers, and the effectiveness of tac officers since s7?
Also having bosses immune to your level 3 science ability is just stupid. Want to know why people abandon science? Because you invest in abilities and items to boost those abilities, and then are confronted with a situation where they are 100% useless. Imagine if they made an enemy 100% immune to energy damage, there'd be a bloody riot!
I'm sorry to be so blunt, but you are just plain wrong. The current problem is the over reliance on DPS in order to be successful. If you buff everyone's DPS, you may as well remove classes and ships types all together. (As a good sci-captain I resent this - I don't want to just carry a big gun).
The Vesta is an example of the problem in game design. I love mine, but I also hate it because there is no reason to fly any other science vessels. The Vesta can do nearly anything the other ships can do AT LEAST equally well, if not better. Variety and specialization is what keeps people having fun and keeps them playing between content additions.
To be extra blunt... Most of your reasons NOT to take the advice in the OP are symptoms of the problem.
Design content that is achievable by all play styles (solo) or requires the inclusion of multiple roles (multiplayer).
*shrugs* Different opinions I guess . But just keep in mind that over specialized roles that aren't damage focused tend to be incredibly unpopular in games. Cryptic should know that making sci and cruisers overly necessary would only cause resentment since people are used to and prefer the non trinity present in STO. Worse yet, if they choose to make cruisers and sci vessels overly specialized instead of tanking and doing space magic as an addition to their DPS they run the risk of making them unprofitable which as we know, is the kiss of death of developemnt.
People keep asking for cruisers and sci vessels to be "more relevant" and what they mean is "necessary". As in forcing groups to need them. This is looking for a problem to justify a solution they like. Not everyone asking for Cruiser and Sci vessel buffs is doing this of course, but some clearly are.
I suspect sky might have a point here; all the same, I like the ideas presented in the OP.
For what little it is worth, I add my recommendation that Cryptic at least consider a feasibility study of such a move. Never know, it could be worth trying.
How? By giving them all cannons and/or combat pets? That is what we got with the Vesta after all.
We've already got the fleet retrofits for most things. What more could really be done for the old ships via any regular means? That wouldn't mean adjusting the metagame I mean.
By adjusting their primary weapons such that they are more viable for endgame use?
Did you even read my original post? At no point did I suggest anything that would make any ship *necessary*. Useful to a team from Force Multiplier/synergistic capabilities yes but not in any way necessary.
Please I beg you which part of the suggestions I proposed in the OP would make any of the ships required?
But adjusting weapons is one of those very metagame changes that they are unwilling to do; except possibly a DHC nerf (which wouldn't help anything).
Personally I don't care how its done but if they aren't willing to make the metagame fit the ships they created then they should make it as easy to DPS with cruisers and scis (by means of weapon and skill combos in sci's case) as it is to tank with an escort, though still not balanced it would be more fair