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A simple idea to fix engineers
hurleybird
Member Posts: 909
Engineers have the weakest fleet ability in the game, so how about adding this to Engineering Fleet:
Immunity to SNB for 15 seconds.
That would do it, I think.
Immunity to SNB for 15 seconds.
That would do it, I think.
Behold, The Jorf Guide
Post edited by hurleybird on
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Double sub nuc being the only way to kill good engineer tankers
I think the problem is not with the class it self but with weapons and healing.
An 8 beam broadside which used to be the Engineers choice of weapon load out as they could counter the power drain simply is no more than a disco effect now days.
When back in the day it rivaled Tactical's and there Cannons
Yes, I suppose that would fix everything that's wrong with Engineers and cruisers, like the fact that Nadion Inversion is only useful for negating their weaknesses, that EPS is pretty much pointless as a result of the general power boost afforded by Warp Core doffs, that their damage sucks, or that they don't really have a role in the game since Science carriers are much better at both tanking and support. However, I'm pretty sure that all the tacs and escort captains would appreciate the immunity in PvP. As for PvE... what is this supposed to help wtih?
All of those things will potentially change with the FAW fix. The wisest thing to do is wait and reevaluate. The change I'm advocating is a good step regardless of what happens with FAW.
Nothing. You can't balance around PvE because it's a mindless DPS race. If you bumped up damage from science and engineering captains in cruisers and science ships to anywhere near that of a tacscort you'd never want an escort or tactical captain in PvP. The only possible fix to PvE is to make it suck less, and have NPCs behave more like player characters and not brainless HP meat bags.
It's fun stalking the forums again :P
Sincerely,
Your crimson cherry.
Veni Vidi Vici
Confucius says "A Panda is most dangerous when Sad".
Basically, hull strength is binary -- either you are at nearly 100%, or you blow up, with not enough degrees in between to make healing really viable in PvE.
My idea was making Miracle Worker castable and that one of the bonuses should give the target a brief immunity to SNB.
Makes the idea of carrying one Engi on a premade worthwhile.
Still doesn't address some of the other major issues with the class right now. Power creep has made them mostly redundant. I don't even see this change making them that attractive.
I think premade wise even with a change like that to the engi fleet skill... you would likely still be better off with out the engi at all.
Which is where we pretty much sit in limbo waiting to see what comes of that lightning targeting fix in regard to certain abilities with their mods and procs. Until we know how that fix changes the game, other changes could just create additional problems...
...besides, Engineers do not counter SNB - why would Engineering Fleet add protection against SNB? Besides, all that would mean would be that nobody dies during the duration of EFleet and then it's back to normal. It just continues the sense that skill in PvP is not skill in PvP, but rather it's skill in gimmicks. The team with the most skill in using their gimmicks shall win...meh.
...that being said though, I'm in favor of hardening systems: pseudo to-hit rolls for certain abilities without to-hit rolls (example: Jam Sensors being a pseudo to-hit roll based on the respective skills of the two players involved - CMS + JS Rank vs. Sensors). I also think that the various +pwr Engineering consoles should also provide additional drain/proc resistance. All sorts of things - somebody said I've got a spiderweb of ideas out there that lack contextual references to each other since they're spread out all over the place.
Could do. Engi fleet is the weakest of all, by far.
Imo tho, engineers simply suck because they got the weakest captain abilities (EPS, Nadion) and the ones that ARE handy (Miracle, RSF, etc) are not viable because in pvp there is not much reason to shoot at a engineer because its not dangerous enough, is a big zombie, etcetera, and doesnth ave deadly stuff like APA/SNB.
So in a nutshell, RSF, miracle, etc is only viable if the engineer was a reason to be an important focus, with its current captain abilities, no.
Sure, Engi's can cast off more external heals to others because he has more self heals for himself, and again an equal player on the other side being a sci would nuke that all off in a second.
APA/GDF Tac Awesome
SNB/SenScan Sci Awesome
RSF... just 1? :C Great, but reliant and dependant on whethr the opposite side is dumb enough to focus on you..
Cheers!
snb immunity, why not. I'm with the it won't be enough camp on this one, as mt pointed out its not just eng fleet that is underperforming. The remaining cpt powers are bleh as well.
As for F@W fix......i lol'ed.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
BTW, EPS is one of the most valuable skills ever. Try giving it to your best escort instead of trying to use it on yourself. There isn't anything more awesome than flying my Armitage having my Engi repairing my hull, buffing my shields and keeping my weapons and shields power at a constant 125.
Also, FYI, most of the really, really good Engi Healboats I know are TORPEDO boats. Lets them keep high Aux Power for heals and those Torpedos Spreads with Transphasics sure make the Danubes and other spam go away.
If you want to do Mondo Kirk damage output playing an Engineer, try this build. FYI, everything on this build can be gotten for free from Episodes except the consoles. I regularly win SB 24 and Gorn Minefield with this ship.
BREEN CRUISER ENGINEER MONDO KIRK DAMAGE BUILD:
FORE:
2x Dominion Beam Beam Array (alternately one Dominion Array, One Phased Polaron)
Rapid Reload Transphasic Torpedo Launcher
Breen Cluster Torpedo
AFT:
2x Dominion Beam Beam Array (alternately one Dominion Array, One Phased Polaron)
Rapid Reload Transphasic Torpedo Launcher
Breen Cluster Torpedo
CONSOLES:
ENG:
Borg, RCS, Neutronium
SCI:
Breen Dissapator, 2xEmitter (Embassy Plasma Infused if you can get them)
TAC:
4xPolaron Phase Modulator
Breen Space Set (boosts Transphasic Damage and also give Energy Siphon power for free)
BOFFS:
Cmndr Tac: TT1, Torp Spread 2 APO1, APO2 (3 if you can get it trained for you)
Lt Tac: TT1, Torp Spread 2
Ens Uni: Beam Target Shields 1
Lt Eng: EPTS1, EPTS2 (put on Tray 7 if using Hilbert Bind)
Lt Cmndr Sci: Tractor Beam 1, Hazard Emitters2, Grav Well 1
EPS--->> Broadside--->Target Shields--->Turn and Drop Spread and Cluster---->Aux Battery--->Grav Well--->Evasive Manuevers---> Backside Torp Spread and Cluster--->
REPEAT
Enjoy! And Engineers, don;t listen to the naysayers. You ARE definitely worhtwhile teammates in PvP. Talk to some OPvP veteran healers and learn the tricks and you will be the first one us TacScorts look for when building a team. (Okay, maybe we'll hit up the guy with the Evil Wells/Korath first so they can SUBNUC everything for us, but you wil be the second one if not the first.)
Well he asked for it, poor engineer....
Your Dual Antiproton Banks - Overload III deals 71928 (62491) Antiproton Damage(Critical) to Rena.
cus he needed more.. something.. something....
Sci - SNB/Sensor Scan
Tac - APA, FoMM, TacFleet, TacInit, GDF
The Denial:
Sci - SNB/Scattering Field
The Issue:
Eng - doesn't bring anything to The Kill and doesn't help with The Denial unless the Eng is the target
The Resolution:
Eng - bring as much to The Denial for a team as a Tac brings to The Kill
eng fleet is pretty weak compared to sci fleet, nadion inversion is 100% useless to torpedo boats ( i guess devs forgot torpedoes ) , other players can get the same effect by having a dem
energy siphon is stronger than eps power transfer, i mean, really
engineers could do better if nadion inversion were usefull like immunity to disables, holds, and drains for 30 secs
eps power transfer is not that bad, but again, if you are a torpedo boat, it will add useless power to weapons, useless power to shields if you are using a covariant, and useless power to aux since you allready have aux maxed in torpedo boats
and eng fleet with that subnuke immunity to all the team for 15 secs, plus a little boost to the dmg resistance, that would make the perfect premade team to have an eng or two xP
The first has to do with the high survivability of some ships that should not be so tough, mainly escorts. The main engineering boff ability used by escorts to attribute this to is RSP. In essence, it gives an escort a 'free life' and leaves too large of a window for someone to heal them and/or put them in extends.
The second is extends. I have seen quite a few matches lately with 3 copies of extends going at once. It is leading to stagnant and/or boring matches, even in the q's.
Both of these abilities are available at Lt. BOff stations. Bump them up a level where grade 1 is Lt. Cmd. from skill trainer, grade 2 is Cmd. from skill trainer, and grade 3 is Cmd. trained by: an Engineer. No more magic saves from escorts and it would hamper the ability of sci ships to carry extends as easily as they do now.
With it's inherent self survival skills and now the one protecting teammates, it would give an engineer/cruiser a solid place on a team and it would also relieve us of some of the zombies.
TBH i never understood why Cryptic buffed RSP, a few months after it had been nerfed into more reasonable state.
But since beam boats, PI, and skilling into NI is all WAD. I doubt that anything usefull will happen to engs. STill, I sort of like the idea of bumping ES1 and RSP1 to Lt Cmdr. If only they had the tech , to do something like it.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Engineering Fleet: Boosts Shield Repair, Hull Repair, and Subsystem Repair in addition to it's current effects (thanks DDIS).
Nadion Inversion: current effects, but in an AOE affecting the entire team, similar to Scattering Field, making an engineer on the team a good counter against drains, as well as a modest boost to DPS.
Miracle Worker: castable on anyone, Note that while boosting team healing, this would make the engineer themselves much more fragile, as part of the value in MW as a 'reserve heal' is that currently the engineer couldn't use it on a team-mate even if he wanted.
RSF: unchanged. The reason I would keep this self-only while making MW castable is that resistances in PvP are already excessively powerful. By itself, the healing from MW is extremely powerful, but in practice it doesn't last long without some sort of shield or hull hardening to accompany it. Making MW castable basically gives the target a second life, but adding RSF on top of that also makes them basically invulnerable.
EPS Transfer: unchanged.
Do that and suddenly the engineer is valuable for healing and team-protection, even if they aren't flying around in a real healing ship.
Hey bud.
What would they realistically take in place of those at that point?
"Fixing" survivability that comes with basic boff powers instead of the actual issue which is all of the passives resistances and heals that have been added, only makes for an even worse design than we have now.
A friend,
Maybe we should move TS and BFAW to Lt as well?
You're suggesting to remove base survivability tools from escorts, at which point I'd counter with completely removing base damage tools from other ships.
Neither is a good prospect to fix the real issue of runaway passives.
As long as the grand trump card of SNB continues to exist like it does, and Bort has commented directly they're happy with it (I have no issue with it, personally either) - then powers like RSP/EPTS are things you are nuke off, brute force a kill through or switch targets.
You're changes would also hamstring more than a few of the last remaining offense capable cruiser builds and KDF battle cruiser builds.
Unfortunately, no, it wouldn't.
Wells and Recluse have taken the place of a Cruiser specifically because they can use high tier Engineering powers. (Even the Vesta can do this to an extent).
Your changes wouldn't change that, and you'd still see a Sci captain in either of those ships be the better choice than an Eng/Cruiser.
Eng needs to have a few abilities that are more team focused, and game changing.
Eng fleet granting SNB protection could be one of them, MW and RSF being castable on others would be good as well.
I think those 3 changes alone could suddenly catapult Eng into a new position of value on a team.
I would think a simple solution to make engineers the tank they have to be - because everyone is obsessed wiht the Holy Trinity - could be had with one captain skill which is used widespread in other mmo-s. Taunt.
You as an engi shoot the skill to an escort preparing to deliver his alpha on an unsuspecting target and the escorts target indicator swithces over to you. There you have it. Alpha strike ruined as you are not in the 45? arc of the escort. So now you can "get aggro" in pvp.
On a side note: Anyone who played Lineage 2 would know that you can have a tank and still do damage. It's called Dark Avenger there. It will chain stun you, taunt you with the above method. And it has attack skills and a pet for damage. Better yet it has an aoe version of it's taunt skill.
So no, cruisers should not be forced into tanking, it is only Cryptic's fail that they are.
Good day.
I like these suggestions. Also, reduce cooldown on MW even if it means weakening it a bit.
[Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth]
[Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk]
[D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
Honestly, I think they could reuce the cooldown, make it castable on others AND give it a resistance boost like Aux to SIF and it would still be fine.:)
Boarding Party???
DEM/A2DAMP/A2SIF could easily replace them and as the game stands now, are currently viable choices. Honestly, the first 2 are more in line with the job of a tac. I started using DEM1 on a F-Sabre. It's not bad. I'm going to try A2DAMP on my bug for some fun. Most of the time im in a Defiant, which has only 2 low level engineering powers. To be honest, I think it made me a better 'pilot' learning to survive on a lower suplement of survivability skills. When I get in the bug I forget I have RSP most of the time. I am also one of the culprits asking for a uni ens. on the F-Defiant and it's not so I can have RSP.
You cant 'haz' my TS
Anyways, I figured that RSP was a long shot as the last time Bort suggested changes to it , the pichforks came out, but it's worth a try.
Moving extends up a level though is definately viable though IMO. Yes, a Wells can use it's uni Cmd. for extends 1 under what I propose, but not level 2 and can't carry 2 copies. A recluse will be able to carry all 3 levels no matter what, but extends 1 will still go Lt. Cmd. and 2 will still be pushed up to the Cmd at which point they will just have 3 trained just like us tacs do with Omega.
I understand that it is not the best way to deal with the tier 4 reps and other new stuff, but it's viable.
Perhaps engies could use a more team oriented captain skill but it seems that their design intent is to be more selfish/self sustaining role.
:P
It's viable, but I actually think this hurts a lot of cruisers more than anything to push ES up a tier, effectively punishing offensive cruiser builds that want to at least have 1 power to support their team.