and now put together a great escort build vs a great cruiser build. yeah, you know the results already. it is the science who loses, because noone talks about them
I've only just started playing with science ships. the closest are Nebula and Voquv. so i have no comment there.
I see both sides of the argument, but keep in mind that the current environment evolved to its present state because cruisers were over-the-top in STO's earlier seasons. Zombie cruisers could engage 2+ escorts and win somewhat consistently thanks to the 15-second RSP's, non-diminishing resists, very low 50% defense caps, incorrect energy recovery values for cannons, linked cannon global cool-downs, etc.
Fast-forward to the present day -- cruisers are now a shadow of their former glory because of all the skill changes, equipment edits, bug fixes, new consoles, and so forth. Regardless of how we've gotten here, the escort now sits at the top of the DPS tree. Yes, cruisers can use some upgrades to get them back on-par with escorts, but I do not want to see near-invincible builds making any come-back.
It's true that the defensive abilities of the escorts are out of this world too powerful, the Attack Patterns need to be split into Attack Pattern/Evasive Patterns, part of the problem is the buffs and debuffs are all in one single ability, and they are missing a few, whatever happened to attack/evasive pattern theta?
The other problem is they've severely weakened the space skills for science captains when we all know they work VERY well in the series and movies because they took into account the physics of it all. The science captain abilities are nowhere near what they should be and if they fixed them and made then canon, that would solve many of the problems science captains face (such as making the tykon's rift fly towards the target until boom causes a WCBO) you get the idea.
And then there are the science ships. The consoles for the science ships are all but useless. Many of the ones you get from the store aren't worth anything because A: they do only 1 stack of 1 sensor analysis when used and B: the stealth detection in pve is not needed so why bother? It's a real let down to see these ships go to waste like this. Then there are design flaws in the ships that are not canon for example, the intrepid and bellerophon should have faster cooldowns on deflector abilities because they have 2 deflector arrays. And the hulls on these ships arent effective really, its like flying around in a tin foil hat, anything that gets thru the shields on these ships except the nebula pretty much 1 shots you.
So they have alot of work to do if they want this game to become balanced once more. I agree with the OP when it comes to resetting the roles.
but I did once, you missed my point. My point is build and skills are more important than type of ship. People may choose escorts for they like to fly fast and hit hard. which is what the escort is design to do. Cruisers are ment to take a beating and dish some back, (maybe not as much as a escort but some). And as a result some builds are better than others. someone with a crappy escort build can be beaten by some one in a cruiser with a great build. I'll keep saying and saying this and saying this till you get it. There is nothing wrong with the escorts or the cruisers MINUS the Galaxy. It's just crappy builds or crappy players.
...
And you STILL missed the point. Build and skills are part of it, but it doesn't change the fact that there is still one ship class that can easily dominate all the others. You are correct. Escorts fly fast and hit hard. But guess what? They can also take one heck of a beating and just heal it back with almost stupid ease. Cruisers can take a beating... and then dish what back? A few weak beam shots? Maybe a torp or two?
And you can say it over and over, it doesn't change the fact that you are missing a TON of facts. A top build escort can demolish a top build cruiser. That is a fact. Can the cruiser ever win? No. It MIGHT be able to push it to a stale-mate, but it will never win. The escort on the other hand, CAN win. Pretty easily if the captain knows what he/she is doing. But it doesn't change the fact that the cruiser cannot win. It can barely drive the escort away (if it can at all).
Again, the point I was trying to make is that there is ONE ship class that dominates almost all end-game content of STO. In ESTFs, what's the most efficient way of winning? 5 escorts/raiders/destroyers. In story missions what's the fastest and easiest way to win? An escort/destroyer. In Fleet Alerts? 5 escorts/destroyers. I could go on and on, but outside of NWS and PvP, cruisers cannot even come close to escorts in usability.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
I see both sides of the argument, but keep in mind that the current environment evolved to its present state because cruisers were over-the-top in STO's earlier seasons. Zombie cruisers could engage 2+ escorts and win somewhat consistently thanks to the 15-second RSP's, non-diminishing resists, very low 50% defense caps, incorrect energy recovery values for cannons, linked cannon global cool-downs, etc.
Fast-forward to the present day -- cruisers are now a shadow of their former glory because of all the skill changes, equipment edits, bug fixes, new consoles, and so forth. Regardless of how we've gotten here, the escort now sits at the top of the DPS tree. Yes, cruisers can use some upgrades to get them back on-par with escorts, but I do not want to see near-invincible builds making any come-back.
Truth^Truth^
Cruisers need a small turn increase and slightly better inertia. Fix thier capability for damage by fixing Beam Arrays so they can apply pressure damage again.
No nerf to escorts
No OP buff to Cruisers to fix failed expectations
No OP super beam weapons to fix failed ideas of how they should be DHCs without the drawbacks.
...
And you STILL missed the point. Build and skills are part of it, but it doesn't change the fact that there is still one ship class that can easily dominate all the others. You are correct. Escorts fly fast and hit hard. But guess what? They can also take one heck of a beating and just heal it back with almost stupid ease. Cruisers can take a beating... and then dish what back? A few weak beam shots? Maybe a torp or two?
And you can say it over and over, it doesn't change the fact that you are missing a TON of facts. A top build escort can demolish a top build cruiser. That is a fact. Can the cruiser ever win? No. It MIGHT be able to push it to a stale-mate, but it will never win. The escort on the other hand, CAN win. Pretty easily if the captain knows what he/she is doing. But it doesn't change the fact that the cruiser cannot win. It can barely drive the escort away (if it can at all).
Again, the point I was trying to make is that there is ONE ship class that dominates almost all end-game content of STO. In ESTFs, what's the most efficient way of winning? 5 escorts/raiders/destroyers. In story missions what's the fastest and easiest way to win? An escort/destroyer. In Fleet Alerts? 5 escorts/destroyers. I could go on and on, but outside of NWS and PvP, cruisers cannot even come close to escorts in usability.
AND YOU'RE WRONG I've seen cruisers win. Add if escorts are taking a good beating then it means their captains were smart and have the right BO skills. does that mean the escort is OP? NNNNNNNOOOOOO. Build and skills ONCE AGAIN IS THE FACTOR. SO STOP FREAKING COMPLAINING THIS FALSE PROBLEM.
Cruisers need a small turn increase and slightly better inertia. Fix thier capability for damage by fixing Beam Arrays so they can apply pressure damage again.
No nerf to escorts
No OP buff to Cruisers to fix failed expectations
No OP super beam weapons to fix failed ideas of how they should be DHCs without the drawbacks.
yea yea, toss a coin enough times and eventually it will land on its side.
doesnt change to when 2 equally well built ships clash, the escort will win.
and that is an easy and predictable result of making escorts dominant on 2 points of the balance pyramid of damage, agility and health.
Wrong. I have tied with a technically better built escort IN A CRUISER.
You failed to notice. I prove the point wrong. we spent 45 mins against eachother before ending it in a draw, one kill each. according to the posting of this thread I should ALWAYS LOSE. I DIDN'T. so escorts aren't OP people need to learn the cruiser better.
Apolgies, the cruisers could do with a small buff to turn and the beam arrays could do with addressing but I have flown a cruiser since beta and my Engineer is my main toon in a Cruiser and I make it a personal mission to fly and build one that will hold its own as best as possible.
I don't always get it right but I am proud of my cruiser.
AND YOU'RE WRONG I've seen cruisers win. Add if escorts are taking a good beating then it means their captains were smart and have the right BO skills. does that mean the escort is OP? NNNNNNNOOOOOO. Build and skills ONCE AGAIN IS THE FACTOR. SO STOP FREAKING COMPLAINING THIS FALSE PROBLEM.
unfortunately, not true. If two players of equal skill and gear level, one in an escort the other in a cruiser, engage each other the escort will win. The cruiser just doesn't do enough burst damage to overcome the escorts healing while the escorts superior damage allows it to win the day.
unfortunately, not true. If two players of equal skill and gear level, one in an escort the other in a cruiser, engage each other the escort will win. The cruiser just doesn't do enough burst damage to overcome the escorts healing while the escorts superior damage allows it to win the day.
I guess all those unkillable cruisers (in particular those Odys..) in PvP are just bizarre ghost ships in the system? Unless the Kumari has proven to be more balance breaking than most feared a well built cruiser is all but indestructible. It will never kill a well built escort, but the escort cannot kill it either. That makes it clear the real issue is not weapons or damage ratios, but that defenses are unbalanced with the damage in the game.
AND YOU'RE WRONG I've seen cruisers win. Add if escorts are taking a good beating then it means their captains were smart and have the right BO skills. does that mean the escort is OP? NNNNNNNOOOOOO. Build and skills ONCE AGAIN IS THE FACTOR. SO STOP FREAKING COMPLAINING THIS FALSE PROBLEM.
*sigh*
You really don't get it do you? A cruiser will NEVER kill a properly built escort. And it's more likely than not that the cruiser will probably die to the escort. And it's not a false problem. You just can't accept that you could possibly be wrong.
Try looking at this from a point of view other than your own. An escort has -20% hull and -15% shields of a cruiser. But what does it get in return? 2-300% turn rate and 4-500% damage.
On the flipside, a cruiser has 125% hull of an escort and 120% the shields. But what does it sacrifice for this tiny gain? It is afflicted 33% turn rate of an escort and maybe 25% damage. But if you see that as balanced, then I give up. Your ignorance and close-minded way of thinking is blinding you to an obvious and easily proven truth.
Any escorts you've killed with a cruiser are probably incompetent and don't know how to build correctly. I can guarantee you any escort flown by an actually semi-decent player will slap around all the other ship classes with impunity. A cruiser can possibly survive for a while, and probably will last for a long time, but in the end, it will be a burning wreck left behind.
A properly built escort will NEVER die to a cruiser in a 1v1. Probably not even in a 2v1. 3v1, possibly, it depends on the cruisers and the escort. 4v1, probably. 5v1... well let's just say if 5 cruisers can't kill a single escort, then those pilots are idiots.
On the flipside, 2v1 escort vs cruiser, it's very likely the cruiser will die. 3v1, it's still very likely, if not a guarantee. 4v1, the cruiser is boned. 5v1, I feel sorry for the guy.
So unless you can provide combat logs, screen shots, ANYTHING, you can't prove your point. And I don't need to prove mine, since there are 2 years of threads, combat logs, screen-shots, posts, etc of commentary on how powerful escorts are compared to every other ship class.
Concrete evidence. Please.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
unfortunately, not true. If two players of equal skill and gear level, one in an escort the other in a cruiser, engage each other the escort will win. The cruiser just doesn't do enough burst damage to overcome the escorts healing while the escorts superior damage allows it to win the day.
It will be a draw than. 0:0. Except the Escort captain is a sci and the cruiser captain makes a mistake. Than subnuke and pewpew. But in any other constellation its a draw.
Cruisers need a small turn increase and slightly better inertia. Fix thier capability for damage by fixing Beam Arrays so they can apply pressure damage again.
Agreed on all counts but sadly due to rep passives and insta-heals that seems near impossible...
No nerf to escorts
Which sadly leaves AP:A, AP:O and GDF that continue to make a sci user's life a misery... AP:A and GDF NEED to stop buffing sci powers, it's simply WRONG and frankly lazy design to allow tactical captains to ruin a sci captain's competency in their own ships...
And AP:O's immunity to all holds removes the escort's few weaknesses so that HAS to go before balance can be restored, so I can't agree with "No nerf to escorts" and in the interests of balance neither can you...
No OP buff to Cruisers to fix failed expectations
No OP super beam weapons to fix failed ideas of how they should be DHCs without the drawbacks.
Which sadly leaves AP:A, AP:O and GDF that continue to make a sci user's life a misery... AP:A and GDF NEED to stop buffing sci powers, it's simply WRONG and frankly lazy design to allow tactical captains to ruin a sci captain's competency in their own ships...
And AP:O's immunity to all holds removes the escort's few weaknesses so that HAS to go before balance can be restored, so I can't agree with "No nerf to escorts" and in the interests of balance neither can you...
Clearly someone hasn't learned their lesson from the great tanking nerf when everyone was whining about Carriers because every Fed in existence flew a cruiser.
I'll just go ahead and say that every single cruiser fanatic in this thread hasn't.
Agreed on all counts but sadly due to rep passives and insta-heals that seems near impossible...
Which sadly leaves AP:A, AP:O and GDF that continue to make a sci user's life a misery... AP:A and GDF NEED to stop buffing sci powers, it's simply WRONG and frankly lazy design to allow tactical captains to ruin a sci captain's competency in their own ships...
And AP:O's immunity to all holds removes the escort's few weaknesses so that HAS to go before balance can be restored, so I can't agree with "No nerf to escorts" and in the interests of balance neither can you...
Again, no argument here
imo the problem with apa and apo is not the fact that they cancel sci debuffs. the problem is, that they do that AND pretty much everything else that a tac needs to deal dps. there needs to be a finer line between skills and "anti-skills" becuase at this point many skills are countered by skills that were clearly designed to do other things
imo the problem with apa and apo is not the fact that they cancel sci debuffs. the problem is, that they do that AND pretty much everything else that a tac needs to deal dps. there needs to be a finer line between skills and "anti-skills" becuase at this point many skills are countered by skills that were clearly designed to do other things
This is half of the problem which is what I was getting at with my comments of AP:O but the fact that sci skills were nerfed because of AP:A and GDF is silly (to put it mildly), a buff that is clearly supposed to buff weapon damage output should not buff science stuff and the fact that science was (as a direct result of this) nerfed to the point that it requires these to be used to any great effectiveness simply to be countered by AP:O...
Well, words I can't post here due to forum rules come to mind...
Clearly someone hasn't learned their lesson from the great tanking nerf when everyone was whining about Carriers because every Fed in existence flew a cruiser.
I'll just go ahead and say that every single cruiser fanatic in this thread hasn't.
The bit you quoted has nothing to do with tanking so I don't know where this came from...
You Really Don't Get It Do You? A Cruiser Will Never Kill A Properly Built Escort. And It's More Likely Than Not That The Cruiser Will Probably Die To The Escort. And It's Not A False Problem. You Just Can't Accept That You Could Possibly Be Wrong.
Try Looking At This From A Point Of View Other Than Your Own. An Escort Has -20% Hull And -15% Shields Of A Cruiser. But What Does It Get In Return? 2-300% Turn Rate And 4-500% Damage.
On The Flipside, A Cruiser Has 125% Hull Of An Escort And 120% The Shields. But What Does It Sacrifice For This Tiny Gain? It Is Afflicted 33% Turn Rate Of An Escort And Maybe 25% Damage. But If You See That As Balanced, Then I Give Up. Your Ignorance And Close-minded Way Of Thinking Is Blinding You To An Obvious And Easily Proven Truth.
Any Escorts You've Killed With A Cruiser Are Probably Incompetent And Don't Know How To Build Correctly. I Can Guarantee You Any Escort Flown By An Actually Semi-decent Player Will Slap Around All The Other Ship Classes With Impunity. A Cruiser Can Possibly Survive For A While, And Probably Will Last For A Long Time, But In The End, It Will Be A Burning Wreck Left Behind.
A Properly Built Escort Will Never Die To A Cruiser In A 1v1. Probably Not Even In A 2v1. 3v1, Possibly, It Depends On The Cruisers And The Escort. 4v1, Probably. 5v1... Well Let's Just Say If 5 Cruisers Can't Kill A Single Escort, Then Those Pilots Are Idiots.
On The Flipside, 2v1 Escort Vs Cruiser, It's Very Likely The Cruiser Will Die. 3v1, It's Still Very Likely, If Not A Guarantee. 4v1, The Cruiser Is Boned. 5v1, I Feel Sorry For The Guy.
So Unless You Can Provide Combat Logs, Screen Shots, Anything, You Can't Prove Your Point. And I Don't Need To Prove Mine, Since There Are 2 Years Of Threads, Combat Logs, Screen-shots, Posts, Etc Of Commentary On How Powerful Escorts Are Compared To Every Other Ship Class.
Pfffffft, cruiser heals should be nerfed. It took 3 escorts almost a full minute to knock down some lone fed cruiser drivers shields last night in kerrat.
My main an Engineer flies only Science ships..... I've never felt left behind by escorts....
Engi in a Nebula, here.
You must be flying with some terrible escorts, because even my best runs hardly beat the worst runs of escorts. I can hit 7k raw dps sometimes, but it doesn't compare to the 8-9k dps an escort can pump out while doing just as well at CC as I do. Try again.
@lordmalak: That's because the dev's have constantly buffed healing powers and resists, so of course the tankiest ships in the universe are going to benefit. The problem is that escorts get this buff as well, meaning they can tank better than they should for all content...making a dedicated tank nigh-worthless with a team of escorts who actually know what to do.
All the "cruisers are OK!" posts appear focused on PvP. Even if the three ship types are balanced in PvP, that just means they're balanced in a small minority of content.
In PvE, DPS is rewarded. Cruisers have excess (that is, unnecessary) survivability.
Never having flown a science ship besides the Vesta, I really have no idea how well it does. I flew the Vesta as an escort with a Grav Well 3, and that worked alright.
So you're making a conscious choice about what your priorities are, and how you go about following such priorities. That actually sounds like a good system to me. Personally I use both.
1) Why did you capitalize the first letter of every word in my post?
2) Why (or more accurately, HOW) was I proven wrong? You have provided no evidence other than your word, which after reading a lot of your posts, I equate to nothing more than deluded ramblings.
You know the rules of the net: screen shot or it didn't happen.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
So you're making a conscious choice about what your priorities are, and how you go about following such priorities. That actually sounds like a good system to me. Personally I use both.
The point I was making was that it makes all the sci skills that remain semi-worth having completely useless...
Tractor Beam? AP:O...
Grav well? AP:O...
TBR? AP:O...
The Bortas teleport then death (set combo) thing? AP:O...
3 primary escort weaknesses all rendered completely useless by one skill... And if in realising this you try to get rid of said escort oh look same skill again!
And on top of this they can tank through everything else as per a cruiser (Been there, done that, got the debris field) so there goes that argument...
I refuse to run the borg set because I would rather not die out of skill than be saved by an insta-heal proc and if I do die... So? The other guy was more skilled and/or I made an error.big deal...
But AP:O is simply stupid, its the only word for having 1 skill that removes all the weaknesses of one class (which also happens to be the class with the most ships that are able to equip it), while directly rendering another classes life a complete misery...
1) Why did you capitalize the first letter of every word in my post?
2) Why (or more accurately, HOW) was I proven wrong? You have provided no evidence other than your word, which after reading a lot of your posts, I equate to nothing more than deluded ramblings.
You know the rules of the net: screen shot or it didn't happen.
Its not worth arguing with the guy anymore, he knows he's wrong, he just wont admit he's lost and everyone reading this thread can see that...
Having never seen the phaser lance in action, I have to ask... is the damage that it does really enough to let the Gal-X match a Fleet Defiant decloaking with Attack Pattern Omega, Cannon: Rapid Fire, and all the other buffs a Tac-escort can pull off?
A tactical captain can fly a Galaxy X. So yeah. It can do the same 5 second alpha strike and use the lance and do big damage. In a 5 second alpha strike from decloaking.
It's what both ships can do AFTER that which differentiates them.
Pfffffft, cruiser heals should be nerfed. It took 3 escorts almost a full minute to knock down some lone fed cruiser drivers shields last night in kerrat.
...Seems somebody is doing something right.
No doubt. I see that happen all the time in Kerrat, and not just with Cruisers.
It makes one think that only some know how to defend properly and only some know how to apply DPS properly and all the rest just dont know.
Comments
I've only just started playing with science ships. the closest are Nebula and Voquv. so i have no comment there.
Fast-forward to the present day -- cruisers are now a shadow of their former glory because of all the skill changes, equipment edits, bug fixes, new consoles, and so forth. Regardless of how we've gotten here, the escort now sits at the top of the DPS tree. Yes, cruisers can use some upgrades to get them back on-par with escorts, but I do not want to see near-invincible builds making any come-back.
The other problem is they've severely weakened the space skills for science captains when we all know they work VERY well in the series and movies because they took into account the physics of it all. The science captain abilities are nowhere near what they should be and if they fixed them and made then canon, that would solve many of the problems science captains face (such as making the tykon's rift fly towards the target until boom causes a WCBO) you get the idea.
And then there are the science ships. The consoles for the science ships are all but useless. Many of the ones you get from the store aren't worth anything because A: they do only 1 stack of 1 sensor analysis when used and B: the stealth detection in pve is not needed so why bother? It's a real let down to see these ships go to waste like this. Then there are design flaws in the ships that are not canon for example, the intrepid and bellerophon should have faster cooldowns on deflector abilities because they have 2 deflector arrays. And the hulls on these ships arent effective really, its like flying around in a tin foil hat, anything that gets thru the shields on these ships except the nebula pretty much 1 shots you.
So they have alot of work to do if they want this game to become balanced once more. I agree with the OP when it comes to resetting the roles.
...
And you STILL missed the point. Build and skills are part of it, but it doesn't change the fact that there is still one ship class that can easily dominate all the others. You are correct. Escorts fly fast and hit hard. But guess what? They can also take one heck of a beating and just heal it back with almost stupid ease. Cruisers can take a beating... and then dish what back? A few weak beam shots? Maybe a torp or two?
And you can say it over and over, it doesn't change the fact that you are missing a TON of facts. A top build escort can demolish a top build cruiser. That is a fact. Can the cruiser ever win? No. It MIGHT be able to push it to a stale-mate, but it will never win. The escort on the other hand, CAN win. Pretty easily if the captain knows what he/she is doing. But it doesn't change the fact that the cruiser cannot win. It can barely drive the escort away (if it can at all).
Again, the point I was trying to make is that there is ONE ship class that dominates almost all end-game content of STO. In ESTFs, what's the most efficient way of winning? 5 escorts/raiders/destroyers. In story missions what's the fastest and easiest way to win? An escort/destroyer. In Fleet Alerts? 5 escorts/destroyers. I could go on and on, but outside of NWS and PvP, cruisers cannot even come close to escorts in usability.
Truth^Truth^
Cruisers need a small turn increase and slightly better inertia. Fix thier capability for damage by fixing Beam Arrays so they can apply pressure damage again.
No nerf to escorts
No OP buff to Cruisers to fix failed expectations
No OP super beam weapons to fix failed ideas of how they should be DHCs without the drawbacks.
R.I.P
AND YOU'RE WRONG I've seen cruisers win. Add if escorts are taking a good beating then it means their captains were smart and have the right BO skills. does that mean the escort is OP? NNNNNNNOOOOOO. Build and skills ONCE AGAIN IS THE FACTOR. SO STOP FREAKING COMPLAINING THIS FALSE PROBLEM.
Quoted for truth and could not agree more.
Cheers
Rich
Wrong. I have tied with a technically better built escort IN A CRUISER.
You failed to notice. I prove the point wrong. we spent 45 mins against eachother before ending it in a draw, one kill each. according to the posting of this thread I should ALWAYS LOSE. I DIDN'T. so escorts aren't OP people need to learn the cruiser better.
I don't always get it right but I am proud of my cruiser.
Cheers
Richard
unfortunately, not true. If two players of equal skill and gear level, one in an escort the other in a cruiser, engage each other the escort will win. The cruiser just doesn't do enough burst damage to overcome the escorts healing while the escorts superior damage allows it to win the day.
I guess all those unkillable cruisers (in particular those Odys..) in PvP are just bizarre ghost ships in the system? Unless the Kumari has proven to be more balance breaking than most feared a well built cruiser is all but indestructible. It will never kill a well built escort, but the escort cannot kill it either. That makes it clear the real issue is not weapons or damage ratios, but that defenses are unbalanced with the damage in the game.
*sigh*
You really don't get it do you? A cruiser will NEVER kill a properly built escort. And it's more likely than not that the cruiser will probably die to the escort. And it's not a false problem. You just can't accept that you could possibly be wrong.
Try looking at this from a point of view other than your own. An escort has -20% hull and -15% shields of a cruiser. But what does it get in return? 2-300% turn rate and 4-500% damage.
On the flipside, a cruiser has 125% hull of an escort and 120% the shields. But what does it sacrifice for this tiny gain? It is afflicted 33% turn rate of an escort and maybe 25% damage. But if you see that as balanced, then I give up. Your ignorance and close-minded way of thinking is blinding you to an obvious and easily proven truth.
Any escorts you've killed with a cruiser are probably incompetent and don't know how to build correctly. I can guarantee you any escort flown by an actually semi-decent player will slap around all the other ship classes with impunity. A cruiser can possibly survive for a while, and probably will last for a long time, but in the end, it will be a burning wreck left behind.
A properly built escort will NEVER die to a cruiser in a 1v1. Probably not even in a 2v1. 3v1, possibly, it depends on the cruisers and the escort. 4v1, probably. 5v1... well let's just say if 5 cruisers can't kill a single escort, then those pilots are idiots.
On the flipside, 2v1 escort vs cruiser, it's very likely the cruiser will die. 3v1, it's still very likely, if not a guarantee. 4v1, the cruiser is boned. 5v1, I feel sorry for the guy.
So unless you can provide combat logs, screen shots, ANYTHING, you can't prove your point. And I don't need to prove mine, since there are 2 years of threads, combat logs, screen-shots, posts, etc of commentary on how powerful escorts are compared to every other ship class.
Concrete evidence. Please.
It will be a draw than. 0:0. Except the Escort captain is a sci and the cruiser captain makes a mistake. Than subnuke and pewpew. But in any other constellation its a draw.
Agreed on all counts but sadly due to rep passives and insta-heals that seems near impossible...
Which sadly leaves AP:A, AP:O and GDF that continue to make a sci user's life a misery... AP:A and GDF NEED to stop buffing sci powers, it's simply WRONG and frankly lazy design to allow tactical captains to ruin a sci captain's competency in their own ships...
And AP:O's immunity to all holds removes the escort's few weaknesses so that HAS to go before balance can be restored, so I can't agree with "No nerf to escorts" and in the interests of balance neither can you...
Again, no argument here
Clearly someone hasn't learned their lesson from the great tanking nerf when everyone was whining about Carriers because every Fed in existence flew a cruiser.
I'll just go ahead and say that every single cruiser fanatic in this thread hasn't.
imo the problem with apa and apo is not the fact that they cancel sci debuffs. the problem is, that they do that AND pretty much everything else that a tac needs to deal dps. there needs to be a finer line between skills and "anti-skills" becuase at this point many skills are countered by skills that were clearly designed to do other things
10k DPS Vesta threads: 1; 2
This is half of the problem which is what I was getting at with my comments of AP:O but the fact that sci skills were nerfed because of AP:A and GDF is silly (to put it mildly), a buff that is clearly supposed to buff weapon damage output should not buff science stuff and the fact that science was (as a direct result of this) nerfed to the point that it requires these to be used to any great effectiveness simply to be countered by AP:O...
Well, words I can't post here due to forum rules come to mind...
The bit you quoted has nothing to do with tanking so I don't know where this came from...
My main an Engineer flies only Science ships..... I've never felt left behind by escorts....
Once Again Proven Wrong
My engi cruiser uses AP:O, if its so good why doesn't yours?
...Seems somebody is doing something right.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
I could but I find AP:B is better for DPS...
Engi in a Nebula, here.
You must be flying with some terrible escorts, because even my best runs hardly beat the worst runs of escorts. I can hit 7k raw dps sometimes, but it doesn't compare to the 8-9k dps an escort can pump out while doing just as well at CC as I do. Try again.
@lordmalak: That's because the dev's have constantly buffed healing powers and resists, so of course the tankiest ships in the universe are going to benefit. The problem is that escorts get this buff as well, meaning they can tank better than they should for all content...making a dedicated tank nigh-worthless with a team of escorts who actually know what to do.
In PvE, DPS is rewarded. Cruisers have excess (that is, unnecessary) survivability.
Never having flown a science ship besides the Vesta, I really have no idea how well it does. I flew the Vesta as an escort with a Grav Well 3, and that worked alright.
So you're making a conscious choice about what your priorities are, and how you go about following such priorities. That actually sounds like a good system to me. Personally I use both.
Two questions.
1) Why did you capitalize the first letter of every word in my post?
2) Why (or more accurately, HOW) was I proven wrong? You have provided no evidence other than your word, which after reading a lot of your posts, I equate to nothing more than deluded ramblings.
You know the rules of the net: screen shot or it didn't happen.
The point I was making was that it makes all the sci skills that remain semi-worth having completely useless...
Tractor Beam? AP:O...
Grav well? AP:O...
TBR? AP:O...
The Bortas teleport then death (set combo) thing? AP:O...
3 primary escort weaknesses all rendered completely useless by one skill... And if in realising this you try to get rid of said escort oh look same skill again!
And on top of this they can tank through everything else as per a cruiser (Been there, done that, got the debris field) so there goes that argument...
I refuse to run the borg set because I would rather not die out of skill than be saved by an insta-heal proc and if I do die... So? The other guy was more skilled and/or I made an error.big deal...
But AP:O is simply stupid, its the only word for having 1 skill that removes all the weaknesses of one class (which also happens to be the class with the most ships that are able to equip it), while directly rendering another classes life a complete misery...
Its not worth arguing with the guy anymore, he knows he's wrong, he just wont admit he's lost and everyone reading this thread can see that...
A tactical captain can fly a Galaxy X. So yeah. It can do the same 5 second alpha strike and use the lance and do big damage. In a 5 second alpha strike from decloaking.
It's what both ships can do AFTER that which differentiates them.
No doubt. I see that happen all the time in Kerrat, and not just with Cruisers.
It makes one think that only some know how to defend properly and only some know how to apply DPS properly and all the rest just dont know.
R.I.P