Has Gecko given any thought to the fact that with a significant nerf to DHCs, it'll become even harder to get kills in pvp? It's tough enough as is with all the reputation passives, we don't need a major source of spike to get nerfed. It's beams, and their power drain characteristics that need a buff.
This sounds like a dev that really doesn't get systems.. really bad. The comments are pretty frightening, its his job to have time to figure out min/max, if you can't do it then you aren't fit for the job.
Nerfing DHCs is a bad idea, its the only thing in the game capable of getting through the insane healing on every ship out there. The reputation system is a disaster that they plan to repeat as well, we'll see more passive healing in S8, what else can they give us really, since they plan to not give anyone more offense.
Has Gecko given any thought to the fact that with a significant nerf to DHCs, it'll become even harder to get kills in pvp? It's tough enough as is with all the reputation passives, we don't need a major source of spike to get nerfed. It's beams, and their power drain characteristics that need a buff.
Bort, if you read this thread, please take note.
I think there is no other choice to bring out my B'Rel rage if this happens!!!
Really I agree that some weapons, especially torps and beams are just lacking anything since the day i play this game (Except trico's) but its really not the DHC's fault.
Well let them rage, sci boats and cruisers have suffered long enough. So let's share some thoughts on how to nerf Dual Heavy Cannons, and make Duals and Singles more valuable.
They could nerf, or even remove DHCs from the game and that will not improve DCs or Singles.
I can't understand why you would even for a second support such a flawed conclusion.
...But I am interested to try a beamscort with all those low-level tac beam buffs that never get used, should be interesting since I'll have alot of excess power as it is, and very good maneuverability.
Well, I've got a continuing experiment: an engineer in a beam Raptor (3DBB,1Phton/2BA,1Phton).
But the gear us currently a but outdated.
Strangely enough it's still a lot of fun in ESTFs.
Well, I've got a continuing experiment: an engineer in a beam Raptor (3DBB,1Phton/2BA,1Phton).
But the gear us currently a but outdated.
Strangely enough it's still a lot of fun in ESTFs.
Thats funny, I got an engie on an escort as well, and he DPS's almost as well as the TAC and can live longer. I wonder why I never considered buying a cruiser for him.
Hmmm..... I definitely gotta put my Chel Grett to work for my TAC toon.
I have a sneaking suspicion that many of you commenting have not even listened to the interview and are taking a few things out of context. Listen to it and then provide your feedback. I'm fairly certain that none of the possible DHC changes discussed are on the table for anytime soon. The thoughts about DHC seemed more to me like a general thought when the topic of beams came up.
Again, if you haven't actually listened to the interview, please don't jump to conclusions (unless someone has posted a word for word transcript that I missed) Once you do listen, then feel free to post constructive and non-insulting feedback. Until then, breathe
The best way to fix DHC's is the same way you could make the game a bit more balanced.
Reinstate the old weapon drain mechanics. To be frank the current drain mechanic is awful, it not only removes some depth to the game, but gives escorts a distinct advantage.
5 DHC's? Hardly notice a power drain under the current mechanic.
I have a sneaking suspicion that many of you commenting have not even listened to the interview and are taking a few things out of context. Listen to it and then provide your feedback. I'm fairly certain that none of the possible DHC changes discussed are on the table for anytime soon. The thoughts about DHC seemed more to me like a general thought when the topic of beams came up.
Again, if you haven't actually listened to the interview, please don't jump to conclusions (unless someone has posted a word for word transcript that I missed) Once you do listen, then feel free to post constructive and non-insulting feedback. Until then, breathe
Cheers,
Brandon =/\=
Are you a parrot? I said that. Not in the same words mind you.....
They could nerf, or even remove DHCs from the game and that will not improve DCs or Singles.
I can't understand why you would even for a second support such a flawed conclusion.
Just to be clear> gecko sais: beam buff not happening, if anything happens it would be a nerf to DHCs.
So my question is, how then could we possibly make this work. I don't agree with his choice, and i don't think it is the right path, but since he is systems, we'll just have to work with this.
So just to echo many posters, a nerf to DHC would need to go alongside a healing/resist nerf. *big red letters* "should" they nerf DHC, it only seems to make sense to reevaluate DC and SC alongside. Wider arc for Duals, i mean they need some kind of advantage. Increasing DHC energy drain, alongside some other changes, might not be such a bad idea after all.
I have a sneaking suspicion that many of you commenting have not even listened to the interview and are taking a few things out of context. Listen to it and then provide your feedback. I'm fairly certain that none of the possible DHC changes discussed are on the table for anytime soon. The thoughts about DHC seemed more to me like a general thought when the topic of beams came up.
Again, if you haven't actually listened to the interview, please don't jump to conclusions (unless someone has posted a word for word transcript that I missed) Once you do listen, then feel free to post constructive and non-insulting feedback. Until then, breathe
Cheers,
Brandon =/\=
Thanks Brandon, I listened to the whole interview, before starting this thread. Mind pointing me to the out-of-contextness of the 14 year old remark?
As stated in the OP, Gecko explicitly states that he thinks that beam boats are fine. But DHC might need a look at. Which is what we're discussing. I suspect that I'm not the only one who thinks that gecko is presenting a misdiagnosis, but I already said so in the OP.
MAybe you want to share your thoughts on PvP being "to bursty" and how the 5 DHC escorts is helping against that. Or how NI has been invalidated by Marion Doffs, Reputation Procs.
The best way to fix DHC's is the same way you could make the game a bit more balanced.
Reinstate the old weapon drain mechanics. To be frank the current drain mechanic is awful, it not only removes some depth to the game, but gives escorts a distinct advantage.
5 DHC's? Hardly notice a power drain under the current mechanic.
yes +10, If your tac or sci hs problems with energy drain your doing it wrong. How is that "working as intended"??
Hes thinking things like ACC bonuses in a PvP rep system will be a good idea... and that good rewards will bring people to pvp.
What will bring people to PvP is a good tutorial about how to distribute your shields and use your powers ,not that kind of BS.PvP Boot Camp does what Cryptic should have in game .If you let people think "Im a badass because I can kill 3 probes in stfs thus I can PvP" then they get their ships trashed by one PvP escort be sure that "Badass probe killing ship" will never go near PvP ever ever and forever and complain about how escorts with DHC are OP.
Thats funny, I got an engie on an escort as well, and he DPS's almost as well as the TAC and can live longer. I wonder why I never considered buying a cruiser for him.
Hmmm..... I definitely gotta put my Chel Grett to work for my TAC toon.
Well, maybe because it's fun?;)
In my case I wanted something different and I already had an Engy in a Vor'cha at that point.
To me a somewhat tanky build in a Raptor feels like I'm flying a "light cruiser".
I did somehting similar on a beam Engy T5 Akira about a year later.
With that setup I can live long enough to deliver my firepower over and over and have my pets do some more up close.
What will bring people to PvP is a good tutorial about how to distribute your shields and use your powers ,not that kind of BS.PvP Boot Camp does what Cryptic should have in game .If you let people think "Im a badass because I can kill 3 probes in stfs thus I can PvP" then they get their ships trashed by one PvP escort be sure that "Badass probe killing ship" will never go near PvP ever ever and forever and complain about how escorts with DHC are OP.
Exactly.
He even admits to being one of the Trek RP type players. That really isn't into the Min Maxing we 14 year olds do. That is of course fine. I don't think you need to be a PvP ship build expert to understand the mechanics of your own game.
If he ends up reading any of this thread I hope he understand that adding rewards to attract people that don't pvp in general to pvp won't end well. Also I really hope he finds the time to evaluate the MMO market in general and understand how horribly wrong almost every pvp "rep" system goes for pretty much any Dev that tires to create one.
Hey we all love trek or we wouldn't be here... I to like to load up a cruiser from one of my favorite trek periods and go beat up on NPCs as well. Sure that end of the game is well represented. However for people that have ONLY ever played that game... they need a proper intro to PvP. Instead we have a situation where people level a toon and in some cases play for a year or more before trying it out... and its a massive shock. NO its not 14 year olds min maxing that destroys there ability to enjoy PvP. Its the complete lack of understanding of the game mechanics. Frankly the games "critters" are simply not challenging in terms of skill rotation or even proper skill selection.
In any event, I wish he would play some pvp as we have it... if hes more into RPing trek. (which sure we all like to do or we would be playing eve be honest people.) Perhaps he wants to come out for one of Mai's recreation fun days... I hear Mai is planning a Next Gen one soon. lol
I kid but seriously EVERY single pvp player in this small game community, is here to have fun. We aren't nearly the vicious band of 14 year old misfits we are made out to be at times. Heck in general we will even make sure that things like boot camp happen... it has been good to see Cryptic get behind that. Really though wouldn't it be great if they created a few simple missions that could be played at any time... and perhaps would even be promoted in game. Teaching people basic things like shield distribution and even explaining the 3 types of defense/resistance numbers wouldn't be hard to do.
EDIT... one thing I have noticed in some other MMOs... is a basic PvP template being added to your toon the minute you jump into pvp... obviously they can't do that here... however why not Have a mission, in game a battle training mission that would honestly detail a standard PvP build or two.... and explain why those skills are important. I would bet someone could create something in the foundry... but a Cryptic created mission would be the best answer.
As you can see, the drain occurs even when the beams dont fire ;S
I think that's the issue that needs addressing before ANYTHING is done.
In summary he actually said nothing apart from raising the 1 question for me and giving me a chance to bring up an issue that hasn't got a response from Cryptic yet in this thread (Item 46)
according to fights (made vs. made *even without fleet shields*) with a duration of 120minutes and more, how long time would need such fights, when dhc damage is reduced?
you should ask for a better energy drain system on beam weapons
according to fights (made vs. made *even without fleet shields*) with a duration of 120minutes and more, how long time would need such fights, when dhc damage is reduced?
you should ask for a better energy drain system on beam weapons
Well i m in complete agreement with those min-maxing 14 year olds that pressure damage is dead because of resists and healing numbers.
So the way to bring those back is "more glass less cannon". The reason for those long matches is the same that gecko thinks of pvp as being to bursty. Only coordinated snb alphas create kills, so yes maybe that might be something to work on....then again what do those 14 years olds know that the head of systems doesn't.
PvE objectives on PvP maps, that ll fix it for ya. Wanna bet that these pvp objective will be DPS centered, since escorts sell better just like all the other PvE content of the past 3 years.
"Its how it should be. Cannons should do more damage and escorts are meant to be the DPS ships".
Gecko's second answer is:
"If that's not acceptable (Answer 1), The answer is not to decrease the power drain on, on...... beams, but to increase the power drain on cannons"
/snip
don't forget the part about. "DHC need to drain more, i really think they do."As the man said beam boats are fine, Video Proof is soooooooo There are always counters
Just to be clear> gecko sais: beam buff not happening, if anything happens it would be a nerf to DHCs.
So my question is, how then could we possibly make this work. I don't agree with his choice, and i don't think it is the right path, but since he is systems, we'll just have to work with this.
We wouldn't be able to basically.
Changes like that without corresponding changes to heals/resistances - that I think may never happen - would be pretty ridiculous.
Let's hope this is all hot air and that we can convince Bort that the energy consumption due to fire cycles of BAs is an actual issue.
As you can see, the drain occurs even when the beams dont fire ;S
I think that's the issue that needs addressing before ANYTHING is done.
In summary he actually said nothing apart from raising the 1 question for me and giving me a chance to bring up an issue that hasn't got a response from Cryptic yet in this thread (Item 46)
Did you ever know that you're my hero?
Naz, you are the wind beneath my wings. Video Proof.
The more I think about this, beams need to be buffed, even if DHCs could use a small amount of nerfing.
The test would be an all-cruiser match (i.e. DHCs out of the picture.)
Would anyone ever die?
_________________________________________________ [Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth] [Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk] [D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
I think he's right about beams, cruisers are already doing well, since these ships have been designed to be healers and in no way dps dealers. As healers they perform pretty well. If you want to dps then there are escorts for you.
Comments
Bort, if you read this thread, please take note.
Nerfing DHCs is a bad idea, its the only thing in the game capable of getting through the insane healing on every ship out there. The reputation system is a disaster that they plan to repeat as well, we'll see more passive healing in S8, what else can they give us really, since they plan to not give anyone more offense.
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I think there is no other choice to bring out my B'Rel rage if this happens!!!
Really I agree that some weapons, especially torps and beams are just lacking anything since the day i play this game (Except trico's) but its really not the DHC's fault.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~BranFlakes
They could nerf, or even remove DHCs from the game and that will not improve DCs or Singles.
I can't understand why you would even for a second support such a flawed conclusion.
...and flying escorts
Well, I've got a continuing experiment: an engineer in a beam Raptor (3DBB,1Phton/2BA,1Phton).
But the gear us currently a but outdated.
Strangely enough it's still a lot of fun in ESTFs.
Thats funny, I got an engie on an escort as well, and he DPS's almost as well as the TAC and can live longer. I wonder why I never considered buying a cruiser for him.
Hmmm..... I definitely gotta put my Chel Grett to work for my TAC toon.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
http://www.podcastugc.com/
"Podcast UGC - Episode 102: The Return of Captain Geko" and then jump to 3 hours and 26 minutes (yes the whole interview is 4 hours long)
Again, if you haven't actually listened to the interview, please don't jump to conclusions (unless someone has posted a word for word transcript that I missed)
Cheers,
Brandon =/\=
Reinstate the old weapon drain mechanics. To be frank the current drain mechanic is awful, it not only removes some depth to the game, but gives escorts a distinct advantage.
5 DHC's? Hardly notice a power drain under the current mechanic.
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Are you a parrot? I said that. Not in the same words mind you.....
Very true.A escort with 5 dhc should do less damage than a shuttle.Also Elite fleet shields need to be buffed .
P.S.Is this the trolling thread?
Hes thinking things like ACC bonuses in a PvP rep system will be a good idea... and that good rewards will bring people to pvp.
Honestly the more I listen to the interview the less hope I have. I really hope a lot of the stuff he is talking about turns out to be vapor.
because what is the point spending all the time and dilithium
The problem is that weak ships have to use weak beams for any kind of coverage. So fix the ships, and beam vs cannon will be mitigated somewhat.
Just to be clear> gecko sais: beam buff not happening, if anything happens it would be a nerf to DHCs.
So my question is, how then could we possibly make this work. I don't agree with his choice, and i don't think it is the right path, but since he is systems, we'll just have to work with this.
So just to echo many posters, a nerf to DHC would need to go alongside a healing/resist nerf. *big red letters* "should" they nerf DHC, it only seems to make sense to reevaluate DC and SC alongside. Wider arc for Duals, i mean they need some kind of advantage. Increasing DHC energy drain, alongside some other changes, might not be such a bad idea after all.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Thanks Brandon, I listened to the whole interview, before starting this thread. Mind pointing me to the out-of-contextness of the 14 year old remark?
As stated in the OP, Gecko explicitly states that he thinks that beam boats are fine. But DHC might need a look at. Which is what we're discussing. I suspect that I'm not the only one who thinks that gecko is presenting a misdiagnosis, but I already said so in the OP.
MAybe you want to share your thoughts on PvP being "to bursty" and how the 5 DHC escorts is helping against that. Or how NI has been invalidated by Marion Doffs, Reputation Procs.
yes +10, If your tac or sci hs problems with energy drain your doing it wrong. How is that "working as intended"??
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
What will bring people to PvP is a good tutorial about how to distribute your shields and use your powers ,not that kind of BS.PvP Boot Camp does what Cryptic should have in game .If you let people think "Im a badass because I can kill 3 probes in stfs thus I can PvP" then they get their ships trashed by one PvP escort be sure that "Badass probe killing ship" will never go near PvP ever ever and forever and complain about how escorts with DHC are OP.
Well, maybe because it's fun?;)
In my case I wanted something different and I already had an Engy in a Vor'cha at that point.
To me a somewhat tanky build in a Raptor feels like I'm flying a "light cruiser".
I did somehting similar on a beam Engy T5 Akira about a year later.
With that setup I can live long enough to deliver my firepower over and over and have my pets do some more up close.
Exactly.
He even admits to being one of the Trek RP type players. That really isn't into the Min Maxing we 14 year olds do. That is of course fine. I don't think you need to be a PvP ship build expert to understand the mechanics of your own game.
If he ends up reading any of this thread I hope he understand that adding rewards to attract people that don't pvp in general to pvp won't end well. Also I really hope he finds the time to evaluate the MMO market in general and understand how horribly wrong almost every pvp "rep" system goes for pretty much any Dev that tires to create one.
Hey we all love trek or we wouldn't be here... I to like to load up a cruiser from one of my favorite trek periods and go beat up on NPCs as well. Sure that end of the game is well represented. However for people that have ONLY ever played that game... they need a proper intro to PvP. Instead we have a situation where people level a toon and in some cases play for a year or more before trying it out... and its a massive shock. NO its not 14 year olds min maxing that destroys there ability to enjoy PvP. Its the complete lack of understanding of the game mechanics. Frankly the games "critters" are simply not challenging in terms of skill rotation or even proper skill selection.
In any event, I wish he would play some pvp as we have it... if hes more into RPing trek. (which sure we all like to do or we would be playing eve be honest people.) Perhaps he wants to come out for one of Mai's recreation fun days... I hear Mai is planning a Next Gen one soon.
I kid but seriously EVERY single pvp player in this small game community, is here to have fun. We aren't nearly the vicious band of 14 year old misfits we are made out to be at times. Heck in general we will even make sure that things like boot camp happen... it has been good to see Cryptic get behind that. Really though wouldn't it be great if they created a few simple missions that could be played at any time... and perhaps would even be promoted in game. Teaching people basic things like shield distribution and even explaining the 3 types of defense/resistance numbers wouldn't be hard to do.
EDIT... one thing I have noticed in some other MMOs... is a basic PvP template being added to your toon the minute you jump into pvp... obviously they can't do that here... however why not Have a mission, in game a battle training mission that would honestly detail a standard PvP build or two.... and explain why those skills are important. I would bet someone could create something in the foundry... but a Cryptic created mission would be the best answer.
"Its how it should be. Cannons should do more damage and escorts are meant to be the DPS ships".
Gecko's second answer is:
"If that's not acceptable (Answer 1), The answer is not to decrease the power drain on, on...... beams, but to increase the power drain on cannons"
Carrying on listening to the conversation, even the talk show host said don't do it.
My question is, Who would determine if Answer 1 is acceptable or not?
I personally think there is an issue with beams that's creating an unknow / unexpected drain.
Video Proof
As you can see, the drain occurs even when the beams dont fire ;S
I think that's the issue that needs addressing before ANYTHING is done.
In summary he actually said nothing apart from raising the 1 question for me and giving me a chance to bring up an issue that hasn't got a response from Cryptic yet in this thread (Item 46)
I will give it to the man... he did show up for a 4hr interview. That's pretty hardcore in itself I guess.
you should ask for a better energy drain system on beam weapons
Well i m in complete agreement with those min-maxing 14 year olds that pressure damage is dead because of resists and healing numbers.
So the way to bring those back is "more glass less cannon". The reason for those long matches is the same that gecko thinks of pvp as being to bursty. Only coordinated snb alphas create kills, so yes maybe that might be something to work on....then again what do those 14 years olds know that the head of systems doesn't.
PvE objectives on PvP maps, that ll fix it for ya. Wanna bet that these pvp objective will be DPS centered, since escorts sell better just like all the other PvE content of the past 3 years. don't forget the part about. "DHC need to drain more, i really think they do."As the man said beam boats are fine, Video Proof is soooooooo There are always counters
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Don't get any ideas Naz...:P
We wouldn't be able to basically.
Changes like that without corresponding changes to heals/resistances - that I think may never happen - would be pretty ridiculous.
Let's hope this is all hot air and that we can convince Bort that the energy consumption due to fire cycles of BAs is an actual issue.
Did you ever know that you're my hero?
Naz, you are the wind beneath my wings. Video Proof.
Oh God! Who let him on the forums??
The test would be an all-cruiser match (i.e. DHCs out of the picture.)
Would anyone ever die?
[Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth]
[Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk]
[D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.