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Carrier Wars Online & the Dominion Lockbox
virusdancer
Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
At the start of the year:
Corsair Flight-Deck Cruiser (KDF)
Dacoit Flight-Deck Cruiser (KDF)
Kar'Fi Battle Carrier (KDF)
Marauder Flight-Deck Cruiser (KDF)
Vo'quv Carrier (KDF)
Currently:
Corsair Flight-Deck Cruiser (KDF)
Corsair Flight-Deck Cruiser Retrofit (KDF)
Fleet Corsair Flight-Deck Cruiser Retrofit (KDF)
Dacoit Flight-Deck Cruiser (KDF)
Kar'Fi Battle Carrier (KDF)
Marauder Flight-Deck Cruiser (KDF)
Vo'quv Carrier (KDF)
Fleet Vo'quv Carrier (KDF)
Caitian Atrox Carrier (Fed)
Heavy Escort Carrier (Fed)
Fleet Heavy Escort Carrier (Fed)
Multi-Mission Reconnaissance Explorer (Fed)
Multi-Mission Strategic Explorer (Fed)
Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer (Fed)
Tholian Recluse Carrier (Fed/KDF)
Yep, we've gone from 5 ships to 15 ships this year.
The Dec 2012 Ask Cryptic confirms the next lockbox is going to be a Dominion themed box. Dominion? That seems out of place, no? We're in the midst of the big S7 Romulan push, the talk about the next FE even revolves the Romulans in the sense of the sacrifice of the Enterprise-C stopped war between Starfleet and the KDF.
We're kind of buried in Romulans (and Remans) at the moment - there's also that pesky Tal Shiar and the Iconians story that's playing out. So yeah, outside of the ongoing Borg thing - the Romulan's are where it's at!
Well, except - the Winter Event. A Breen ship. Updated work done on the Breen ships. A console that can be used in any Breen ship (but there's only one, eh?) . . . and tada, you've got the Dominion. What? Say what? Yes, the Breen joined the Dominion - fought along with them and the Cardassians against the Alpha Quadrant.
So will the Dominion lockbox be a Jem Heavy Escort? A Jem Battle Cruiser? Or perhaps - just maybe - just perhaps...
Sarr Theln Warship (Fed/KDF)
...are we looking at another carrier?
Personally, I don't think so. I figure it will either be a Jem Heavy Escort or the Battle Cruiser. That's based on these notes from Tribble Maintenance:
But still, I could be wrong. What effect do you think the Sarr Theln would have on PvP, eh? Bleth Choas fighters... hrmm, yeah...
edit: Of course, that doesn't mean that the Sarr Theln won't end up an 800 Lobi carrier like the Recluse, eh? Would be kind of ironic for those that Lobi'd there way to a Chel Grett for around 1k Lobi...ahem.
Corsair Flight-Deck Cruiser (KDF)
Dacoit Flight-Deck Cruiser (KDF)
Kar'Fi Battle Carrier (KDF)
Marauder Flight-Deck Cruiser (KDF)
Vo'quv Carrier (KDF)
Currently:
Corsair Flight-Deck Cruiser (KDF)
Corsair Flight-Deck Cruiser Retrofit (KDF)
Fleet Corsair Flight-Deck Cruiser Retrofit (KDF)
Dacoit Flight-Deck Cruiser (KDF)
Kar'Fi Battle Carrier (KDF)
Marauder Flight-Deck Cruiser (KDF)
Vo'quv Carrier (KDF)
Fleet Vo'quv Carrier (KDF)
Caitian Atrox Carrier (Fed)
Heavy Escort Carrier (Fed)
Fleet Heavy Escort Carrier (Fed)
Multi-Mission Reconnaissance Explorer (Fed)
Multi-Mission Strategic Explorer (Fed)
Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer (Fed)
Tholian Recluse Carrier (Fed/KDF)
Yep, we've gone from 5 ships to 15 ships this year.
The Dec 2012 Ask Cryptic confirms the next lockbox is going to be a Dominion themed box. Dominion? That seems out of place, no? We're in the midst of the big S7 Romulan push, the talk about the next FE even revolves the Romulans in the sense of the sacrifice of the Enterprise-C stopped war between Starfleet and the KDF.
We're kind of buried in Romulans (and Remans) at the moment - there's also that pesky Tal Shiar and the Iconians story that's playing out. So yeah, outside of the ongoing Borg thing - the Romulan's are where it's at!
Well, except - the Winter Event. A Breen ship. Updated work done on the Breen ships. A console that can be used in any Breen ship (but there's only one, eh?) . . . and tada, you've got the Dominion. What? Say what? Yes, the Breen joined the Dominion - fought along with them and the Cardassians against the Alpha Quadrant.
So will the Dominion lockbox be a Jem Heavy Escort? A Jem Battle Cruiser? Or perhaps - just maybe - just perhaps...
Sarr Theln Warship (Fed/KDF)
...are we looking at another carrier?
Personally, I don't think so. I figure it will either be a Jem Heavy Escort or the Battle Cruiser. That's based on these notes from Tribble Maintenance:
- All "Phased Polaron Beam Array" items have had their display names changed to "Dominion Polaron Beam Array"
- All "Phased Polaron Dual Cannon" items have had their display names changed to "Dominion Polaron Dual Cannon"
But still, I could be wrong. What effect do you think the Sarr Theln would have on PvP, eh? Bleth Choas fighters... hrmm, yeah...
edit: Of course, that doesn't mean that the Sarr Theln won't end up an 800 Lobi carrier like the Recluse, eh? Would be kind of ironic for those that Lobi'd there way to a Chel Grett for around 1k Lobi...ahem.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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I just hope this doesn't rule out a true Dom faction...
EDIT: Also, it's kinda trolling to tell people we're getting a Dom ship and then releasing a Breen one. I mean yeah it's technically true and all, but why phrase it like that and intentionally mislead people lol.
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[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
I was definitely kind of surprised that Stahl said it was going to be a Dominion lockbox. I expected it to be a Breen one - but as folks pointed out in other threads discussing it, it being a Dominion lockbox doesn't rule out a Breen ship.
With the work done on the Breen ships - the note about the Breen console, I really expected the next one to be Breen.
There are a bunch of mixed things they could do with it.
Lobi the Sarr Theln, lockbox either the Heavy Escort or the Battle Cruiser, Lobi additional Breen consoles, lockbox the Nadeon (KDF) and some KDF console (Fed), etc, etc, etc.
The Dominion just seems out of place with where the "endgame" story is. The Breen, not as much - the Breen were supposed to get Romulus. The Romulans have the saying about never turning your back on a Breen, etc, etc, etc. The animosity between the Breen and Romulans is there.
The Dominion? They just want to be left alone - they worked with the Alpha Quadrant to deal with the 2800, etc, etc, etc.
So it's a case of wondering if it's a Dominion lockbox because it can be loaded up with goodies both from the Dominion and Breen. If it were a Breen lockbox, it wouldn't make sense to include Dominion stuff, etc, etc, etc.
Will have to see as more info is given.
I'm not sure that a Heavy Escort or Battle Cruiser would have as much effect on PvP as the Sarr Theln would. Then with the possibility of the cross faction console thing... Feds maybe getting AA or Leech.
Well, I wouldn't be able to make my comment that AA/ASD + toys > ADR + toys. It would just be ADR > er... ADR > er... it would become Carrier/Drainboat Wars.
I'd rather see the Heavy Escort or Battle Cruiser for that reason. At least then, I can still run FvF.
Jem Cruiser in the box....
Jem Heavy escort in the lobi store.
Count the non-carrier ships before the start of the year.
Count the carrier ships before the start of the year.
Look at the percentage increase of carrier ships.
Look at the percentage increase of non-carrier ships.
Three times as many carriers now as when the year started.
Are there three times as many non-carriers?
Though in the end, I'm not sure what your post has to do with my suggestion that even though carriers have grown significantly in numbers - it's unlikely that the Dominion box will have one (though I'm still wondering if they might not Lobi the Sarr Theln at some point).
Which goes on to question what effect a Jem Heavy Escort (or even the BC, given the move toward Heavy Destroyers/Warships we've seen of late along with carriers) might have on PvP.
It also leaves room for speculation on the potential problems a Sarr Theln could add - were it ever to be added.
So there's all sorts of room to discuss all sorts of things...
...I'm just not sure where saying that variants, refits, retrofits, etc of a ship shouldn't count as a ship while trying to point out the variants, refits, retrofits, etc of non-carrier ships.
But oh well, I just post here - not like I work here...
Way I see it adding carriers to the fed side is a START in terms of balancing the factions in this regard. But even so, just adding more variants and some new ships doesn't make this "carrier wars online". Even if there are more ships in game that are carriers doesn't mean that most, half, even a quarter of the ships available are carriers. Further, most of the ships are zen store ships. And fleet versions have a whole extra layer of stuff to grind up for. Finally, I bet you can count on one hand all the Tier 5 fleet ships you've seen in game.
There are still way more non-carrier ships in game, and I suspect that will be the case for a long, long time (and a good thing).
With the announcement of the Dominion lockbox which caught some folks by surprise (they were expecting a Breen lockbox - but oddly enough, the Breen were part of the Dominion and the way the Ferengi work...they could be Breen ships from back then when they were part of the Dominion)...and the discussion of adding another carrier. Not just any carrier, mind you - but the Sarr Theln.
It was along the lines of the discussion and speculation about what Breen ship would be given out during the Winter Event. Quite a few people joked (or were serious) about the Sarr Theln with the Bleth Choas fighters.
So one thing that's kind of remained a dividing line between Starfleet and KDF carriers has been:
ADR vs. ASD.
Offering a crossfaction Sarr Theln - thus giving the Feds Bleth Choas fighters... well, you're no longer looking as much at that ADR vs. ASD. Then add in whatever the crossfaction console would end up being (likely the Nadeon for KDF and then... AA/Leech/reworked Bio for Fed) - and well... that's where I was seeing the problem.
Earlier in the year I was fighting for the Vesta as a shuttlecarrier. I even acknowledged the possibility of a Heavy Escort Fighter Carrier - some folks brought up variations of the Akira that functioned that way...tada, the Armitage came along. I thought the Kitty Karrier was an April Fool's joke and still laugh whenever I see a TRIBBLE Ship.
Having been in too many fights with pairs of Recluses with the odd Atrox and Armitage thrown in... seeing the Vesta added into that... and then the possibility of the Fed Drain Sarr Theln...?
That's the issue I have with carriers.
But like I said, I think it's more likely that they'll go with the Heavy Escort or even the Battle Cruiser. Doesn't mean the Sarr Theln won't arrive down the road... but for the Dominion lockbox and whatever comes along in the Lobi store... I don't think we're there yet.
Engineer Ground to Space:
Reroute Power to Shields ---> Rotate Shield Frequency. Fine.
Cover Shield ---> buy a Phalanx Science Vessel for the Barrier Field Generator. Not fine.
Support Drone Fabrication ---> use Scorpions, drop deployable Turrets, roll a Sci for Photonic Fleet, or fly a carrier. Not fine.
Orbital Strike ---> almost any generic attack. Not fine.
That's the Engineer... discussing Engineer BOFF abilities would be another discussion. One I've had plenty of times about how things are missing from ground unlike Tac and Sci.
Carriers don't give the Engineer anything... since anybody can fly them. In a sense, it's making the argument that Tacs and Scis should be able to experience the Ground Engineer as much as the Engineer.
They need to address the mess that exists between Engineers on the ground and space (innate abilities as well as BOFF abilities).
Don't tease me, mister !
:cool:
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
I really don't think they'll be adding a Breen carrier to the game. Aside from the fact the last patch updated the Phased Polaron weapons to be read as "Dominion Polaron Weapons" and that the winter ship was already a Breen ship, I'd say a heavy escort or cruiser is more likely. In a previous Ask Cryptic when asked about upcoming ships DStahl mentioned A (as in one) Breen ship that's nearly ready (what I imagine is the Chell Grett) and an Andorian ship before alluding to others. Not that he couldn't have omitted it, but wouldn't it make sense that he'd say there were a few Breen ships in the pipeline?
I'd say it's about as likely we get a Sarr Theln as we do a Karemma ship or some junk. I guess those fighters siphon?
I don't think they'll be adding it with the Dominion lockbox itself, nor do I even think it will be a Lobi ship at the same time as the lockbox. However, I can see them adding ala the Recluse to the Lobi store down the road.
Yep, for the lockbox again, eh? Thing is, the Breen were part of the Dominion and given the Ferengi are selling used goods - it doesn't really exclude the potential of a Breen. I don't think it's likely, which is why I started the thread - but it's not something that could completely be ruled out. Both the Breen and Jem'Hadar use Polaron - both were in the Dominion. Still, I think it unlikely.
Lots of folks have been asking for the Jem'Hadar Heavy Escort since the Bug was released. Even the Battleship is more of a Battle Cruiser. I picture the Heavy Escort in the lockbox and the Battle Cruiser in the Lobi Store.
That may simply be a case of reading too much into it. They redid the models for all the Breen ships. The Chel Grett console states that it can be used on any Breen ship. Yes, they've said that just leaves the door open for them to do others at some point - but with the way Cryptic does things, it's more likely that you could use it on other Breen ships before it had the tooltip saying you could than it having the tooltip and there not being other Breen ships in the works.
And yep, we've got the Andorian that was rumored to be a Battle Cruiser - but is now an Escort. We've got the Anniversary ships - Ambassador and K'Vort? The Dominion lockbox ship(s)... S8 and possibly more KDF ships? Perhaps in S8 we'll see the Romulan lockbox.
But yeah, back to where we are and the near future, eh?
The Vet Ships - Heavy Destroyers.
The Armitage - Heavy Escort Carrier.
The Chel Grett - "Warship"...cross between a cruiser and heavy destroyer.
Dominion lockbox - Heavy Escort/Battle Cruiser...just kind of makes sense.
Even with the Andorian, given the previous rumors about it being a Battle Cruiser and then being called an Escort - I'm still picturing Heavy Escort and not zipzipzoom Escort.
I think 2013's going to be the year of the Heavies. Ambassador as a form of Advanced Heavy... the K"Vort as a Heavy BoP or Heavy Raptor.
2014... I'm picturing Dread Variants along the lines of the Ody and Bortas.
But now I'm just rambling from lack of sleep...lol.
Since anyone can fly any ship and use whatever BOFF Abilities said ship allows for, when you look at the class-specific skills, Engineers bring nothing to the table in Space. They're mostly survival instincts that, yes, in PvE can mean the difference between life and death but don't really have much of an impact in PvP. No Debuffs, Engineering Fleet is kind of a joke.
If anything, I think the whole Skill System needs to be revamped and tailored to each class with 2 specs for each class to choose from or mix.
Tactical Captains would be able to spec into boosting energy weapons Damage, Hit/Accuracy, Crit/Severity in one tree and in another tree could spec into Defense, Engines, Maneuverability, Disable Resistance
Science Captains would spec into either Shield Stripping, Resistance Debuffs, Power Drain/Siphon boosting abilities in one tree and in the other spec into buffing CC abilities like GW, TR, VM, CPB.
Engineering Captains would be able to spec into Shield Buffing, Resistance Buffing, Power Management/Transfer Efficiency in one tree while in another tree could spec into a Demolitions type that would boost kinetic weapons (torps, mines, and yes cutting beam), signicantly increasing their Damage, Crit/Severity, Hit/Acc as well increasing the effectiveness of whatever CC after-effects certain kinetic types produce (ie Plasma Torps/Mines, Tric Torps/Mines, Tachyon Trops/Mines etc). The Demo Tree would also boost Carrier Pets and Turrets.
Then there could be Neutral Tree available to all classess that boost power levels, shield and hull healing.
I've been arguing as long as I can remember, about how the 5 innates for Tac and Sci in space reflect a transition of some sort of what they do on ground. Yet, for the Eng - it's a huge pile of steamin' and stinkin' WTF. That what would have been part of the Eng's transition from ground to space either ended up with another career or in the C-Store...er...Z-Store now.
I'm not a big fan of such systems. It makes it harder to make "your character" and it becomes more along the lines of just playing an action game instead of a RPG.
They can already do that.
They can already do that.
Outside of boosting pets/turrets, they can already do that.
And everybody can already do that.
Though, pretty much everybody can already do all of that (again, outside of the pet boosting).
The only thing that separates the three career choices are the five innate abilities.
Could grab any build out there for any ship - same BOFF layout, same skill build, etc... the only thing that would be different for an Eng piloting it compared to a Tac would be those five innate abilities. Tac instead of Sci? Just the five abilities.
Tac: Attack Pattern Alpha, Fire on My Mark, Tactical Initiative, Go Down Fighting, Tactical Fleet
Eng: Rotate Shield Frequency, EPS Power Transfer, Nadion Inversion, Miracle Worker, Engineering Fleet
Sci: Sensor Scan, Subnucleonic Beam, Scattering Field, Photonic Fleet, Science Fleet
That's it - the only difference in space.
Rather than touch the skill tree, I wish that space worked more like kits on the ground or even like the new rep system.
You're ready to pick your first ability - you have two options. That's right, it's not a case that you automatically get one of the five above - but you have a choice of two for each one. Okay, maybe it's a choice of two for four of the five (odd how this looks like the rep system, eh? 4 choices and a fixed? Wonder if they've been thinking about this too?).
It would not be as open as the rep system choices - it would be more along the lines of how the Romulan and Omega rep vary - each offers a choice of an offensive or defensive passive, but they are not the same choices for each. Romulan offers +3% crit, while Omega offers +30 Weapon Skill - both offensive passives, but different.
So for Tac, Eng, and Sci - each would have a choice of an "offensive" or "defensive" ability for each of the first four abilities... each would reflect the nature of the career.
A Tac offensive ability would not be the same as a Sci offensive ability would not be the same as an Eng offensive ability. The same for the defensive option for each.
A person could build a more offensive Engineer, a more defensive Tactical, or even a 50/50 offensive/defensive Science... or the defensive Engineer, 50/50 Tac, etc, etc, etc, etc.
I know most people don't like restrictions and nor do I but currently, having every skill available to every class, some classes benefit more, when combined with some of their innate abilities, than others when they really shouldn't. Classes at this point are meaningless, Engineers even moreso.
Tacs generally spec for Damage but need only throw a few points around to tank just as well as a Sci Cap or Engineer.
Sci Caps generally spec for their Debuff and CC abilities which over time allows them either by team or alone have just as much competative capability.
Engineers just don't really shine in anything. They can heal, dps and tank but no better than anyone else.
It isn't any one thing but a combination various abilities, consoles and innates that serve some classes better than others.
But I'm all for either if Cryptic can just get the numbers right.
Well, lets think about that for a moment, without looking ingame, without checking the wiki, just off the top of my head this year from your counting...
You were generous enough to count the Vesta three times as single ships, whoich i would not have done, so i'll be equally generous with my count.
Tholian Orb Weaver
Fleet Defiant,
Fleet Advanced Escrort,
Fleet Patrol Escort,
Destroyer,
Fleet Destroyer,
Mobius Destroyer,
Wells Science Ship,
Galor
D'kora
Fleet Galaxy,
Regent Assault Cruiser,
Fleet Assault Cruiser,
Fleet Excel,
Fleet Nova,
Fleet Nebula,
Thats just off the top of my head, i'm sure there are more and i'm not even counting the Klink side as there are so many varients of the same ship i get confused.
I think, you should re-evaluate the ratio.
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
There were 67 ships or so, no?
They added 74 ships or so, no?
Overall, they added 110% - or there were 210% as many ships...
There were 5 carriers, no?
They added 10 carriers, no?
So they added 200% - or there were 300% as many carriers...
So not counting the carriers in those original numbers...
There were 62 ships or so, no?
They added 64 ships or so, no?
They added 103% - or there were 203% as many non-carrier ships...
So, let's review:
Added 200% vs. added 103%.
300% as many vs. 203% as many.
Originally, they made up 7.4% of available ships.
Then they made up 10.6% of available ships.
What ratios do I need to review again?
It wasn't a case of stating an overall problem with the carriers being added. It was mainly a case of feeling that the Dominion lockbox would not have a carrier as some have speculated - part of the reason being the number of carriers added already. That's not saying they won't add more carriers but rather a case that I believe they're going to try to put in more non-carrier ships before adding another carrier.
The other concern was if they did add the Sarr Theln and how it would affect the flaky balance of ADR vs. ASD. I'm a firm believer in the FvK debates, that ASD/AA+shared cheese is worse than ADR+shared cheese. No doubt, there's too much cheese; but I believe KDF drain is worse than Fed tractor spam.
Now if you give the Feds drain (minus the AA, but with the potential of Leech with the lockbox) - then you have Drain(-AA)+ADR vs ASD/AA... and I'm a firm believer that the Feds would be worse. As a person that almost exclusively FvF's to avoid the drain stuff... well, I'm not sure that I'd still PvP facing the combination from Feds.
That should give you PvPers fits. Maybe even put in a 5th tac console so you'll really rage.
But yeah, they are on a kick of adding escort hybrids right now... So it wouldn't surprise me.
It's kind of funny, in a strange way, looking at the Bug compared to the Vet ships - much less Escorts and Raptors. Then looking at the Chel Grett...
...well, if they went vertical in power instead of horizontal (where vertical makes more sense as long as you do not look at the stats for the Bug) - they could probably finance S8 from the keys they'd sell.
AA = Aceton Assimilator
ASD = Advanced Siphon Drone
ADR = Advanced Danube Runabout
I'd love one of the shiny new jem'hadar HECs but dear lord those boff stations are terrible. I realise it had subsystem targetting built in but still, dear lord.
Cmdr Tac
Ens/Lt Tac
Lt com uni
Lt uni.
^ at least with that it would be more in line with the current fed HEC.
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