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Energy weapons need an update
voxlagind
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
These are the current choices for energy weapons:
Dual Heavy Cannons: 45 firing arc
Dual Cannons: 45 firing arc
Dual Beam Bank: 90 firing arc
Singe Cannon: 180 firing arc
Beam Array: 250 firing arc
Turrets: 360 firing arc
These are what the choices for energy weapon types should be:
Dual Heavy Cannons: 45 firing arc
Dual Cannons: 90 firing arc
Dual Beam Bank: 135 firing arc
Single Cannon: 180 firing arc
Beam Array: 250 firing arc
Turrets: 360 firing arc
Here's what the Tactical Bridge Officer abilities should look like:
Rapid Fire: Improves the next attack by all energy weapons against a single target.
Fire at Will: Improves the next attack by all energy weapons against multiple targets.
STO has become a game with a wide variety of new and interesting ships. It's really quite terrible that the turn rate of a ship either qualifies it for using Dual Heavy Cannons, or it auto-reverts back to a beam array broadside boat. While some niches for other weapon types exist, they're mostly impractical.
The biggest losers tend to be the newest ships, which deviate from the turn rate norms of their predecessors. Using the Jem'Hadar Heavy Escort Carrier for example, we see the perfect illustration of an Escort with cruiser-like properties and a lower turn rate. However, It's forced to choose between DHC's or drop down to single cannons, when the perfect weapon for it would most likely be somewhere in between.
Likewise, there is really no reason for penalizing people for mixing cannon type and beam type weapons by having each tactical bridge officer ability be different. Many of the "imbalance" cries in the game stem from tactical layouts that are designed for a mix of different class energy weapons, only to find themselves worse off for following the natural flow of the ship. I remember reading a long time ago, that this might come to pass eventually. Now's the time!
Turn rate should dictate up-time, up-time dictates what weapon is best for a ship. Having a huge ship pool full of different turn rate ships is worthless if there aren't options to build them properly.
/end rant on random maintenance thoughts
Dual Heavy Cannons: 45 firing arc
Dual Cannons: 45 firing arc
Dual Beam Bank: 90 firing arc
Singe Cannon: 180 firing arc
Beam Array: 250 firing arc
Turrets: 360 firing arc
These are what the choices for energy weapon types should be:
Dual Heavy Cannons: 45 firing arc
Dual Cannons: 90 firing arc
Dual Beam Bank: 135 firing arc
Single Cannon: 180 firing arc
Beam Array: 250 firing arc
Turrets: 360 firing arc
Here's what the Tactical Bridge Officer abilities should look like:
Rapid Fire: Improves the next attack by all energy weapons against a single target.
Fire at Will: Improves the next attack by all energy weapons against multiple targets.
STO has become a game with a wide variety of new and interesting ships. It's really quite terrible that the turn rate of a ship either qualifies it for using Dual Heavy Cannons, or it auto-reverts back to a beam array broadside boat. While some niches for other weapon types exist, they're mostly impractical.
The biggest losers tend to be the newest ships, which deviate from the turn rate norms of their predecessors. Using the Jem'Hadar Heavy Escort Carrier for example, we see the perfect illustration of an Escort with cruiser-like properties and a lower turn rate. However, It's forced to choose between DHC's or drop down to single cannons, when the perfect weapon for it would most likely be somewhere in between.
Likewise, there is really no reason for penalizing people for mixing cannon type and beam type weapons by having each tactical bridge officer ability be different. Many of the "imbalance" cries in the game stem from tactical layouts that are designed for a mix of different class energy weapons, only to find themselves worse off for following the natural flow of the ship. I remember reading a long time ago, that this might come to pass eventually. Now's the time!
Turn rate should dictate up-time, up-time dictates what weapon is best for a ship. Having a huge ship pool full of different turn rate ships is worthless if there aren't options to build them properly.
/end rant on random maintenance thoughts
[SIGPIC]http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=93695767000&dateline=1347284393[/SIGPIC]
Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
Post edited by voxlagind on
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Comments
Where are the Dual Turrets with reduced arcs but greater damage?
What about Heavy Beam Lances? Narrow arc burn...
What about Beam Turrets along the lines of the Cutting Beam?
Where's cone Beam and AoE Cannon?
Pulse Beams?
Changeable ammo instead of changeable weapons?
Yep, one can go on for quite a while putting together a quick list of things and then fleshing it all out...
They are in our dreams, future lotery boxes and our pockets.
I would think it to be in their best interest, since they went to all the trouble of designing them in the first place.
Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
A specific question about what you propose, wouldn't this nullify the broadside advantage you get with beam arrays? In other words, it seems that beam arrays on front will be useless now since you can now get the overlap with duals as well.
I'm talking specifically about slow turning cruisers btw.
Join Date: Sept 2008
"Holographic tissue paper for the holographic runny nose. Don't give them to patients." - The Doctor
For good reason, whatever changes they make should not be designed by me
I do stand by my initial point though, that we now have a huge variety of ships, and very little ways to customize them. Perhaps only changing the Tac Boff abilities of AoE and Single fire to include all energy weapons, not just cannons or beams, would be the step the game needs.
At the moment, I'm sitting in the JHEC, realizing that DHC's aren't that great for a ship that turns so slow, but also realizing that 180 degree single cannons are going too far the other way. What I probably want is something around 90 degrees. Unfortunatly, the only weapon sitting there is a beam, which (as I have to have turrets aft) does not mesh with the build, and end up being worse than Single Cannons.
I guess I just feel like with all the ships we have now, I can't believe that Dual Cannons and Dual Beam Banks are still mostly worthless.
Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
Except you wouldn't. Overlap doesn't occur on arcs below 180 degrees.
Increased arc does make sense for DCs since otherwise...well...yeah, DCs...um...but would that also come at a reduction in damage for the increased arc?
DBBs to 135 though? Guess that's a case of looking for that middleground between what DCs would be and what SCs are, eh? Again, a reduction in their damage? Eliminating the potential usefulness of BO?
ERF and EFAW? What about BO? Would there be an EO? Would EFAW work like FAW or CSV? Would there end up being ERF, EFAW, EO, and ESV? If so, are they all going to trigger CDs? So you'd lose the ability to BO/CRF or FAW/CSV? Would there be additional Tac abilities added to make up for the overall grouping being reduced from two to one? Would it be a case of finding yourself using Torps/Mines if you weren't already?
Yeah, weapon damage would have to be retuned. As for the other stuff, I have no idea really. BO could still exist for just beams, as could Target Subystems. Cannon users have plenty of burst as it is, and don't need a cannon equivalent. Really, the change would be a slight buff for users of non-DHC's ideally (which they could use).
As far as new abilities, I don't see it as absolutely necessary, only thing being removed would be FAW (as it's rolled into CSV). At that point, the best move would probably be to move APD down in ranks, making APD1 an ensign, APD2 a Lt (note, doing this would mean that the new APD2 would have the same effect APD1 has now), and APD3 up to Lt. Commander. This would allow for cruisers who like to "tank" in PvE to use the new DOFFs in the ensign slots, as they'll now need the Lt. slot for the AoE or single target buff.
Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
Then perhaps the option is to leave it like this:
Scatter Volley: Works like Scatter Volley does now, but includes all energy weapons capable of firing in the forward cone arc.
Fire at Will: Works like FAW does now, but includes turrets. Or maybe it just works for beams like it does now, as it won't matter much.
Rapid Fire: Works like Rapid Fire for all energy weapons in their respective arcs.
Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
Okay, and not trying to be a ballbuster here (I definitely think Energy Weapons need love in this sense - Beam Cone and Cannon AoE are even things I mentioned early)...it's more a case of trying to flesh all of this out...
...what about weapon power drain from using the attacks with the different weapons? Those Arrays are going to chew that up for your Cannons....
Honestly, it's the Jem'Hadar Heavy Escort Carrier that's bothering me at the moment. I've been taking it into PvP, and realizing that there isn't a weapon class that suits the ship.
I'm finding that my overall damage and dps are nearly the same when using DHC's and single cannons. Obviously the DHC's deal a considerable amount greater damage, but the single cannons hit the targets with much greater uptime.
The problem is:
I turn too slow for DHC's, so my uptime is terrible.
I turn too fast for single cannons to offer a benefit that they wouldn't give to a much slower and more defensive ship.
What I need is something with a greater firing arc than dual heavy cannons with less damage, but a lesser firing arc than single cannons with more damage.
It makes me sad that there is a Dual Cannon already in the game, sitting at the ready, that EVERY player knows not to use because DHC's are vastly surperior with no downside by comparison.
More than anything, this is what I want. Some sort of consideration given to the ships who fight like escorts and turn like cruisers. Right now, ships like these gain a small amount of survivability and lose a large amount of damage dealt.
It needs to be fixed.
Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
However, don't rule out single cannons. I think single cannons are roughly 20% less dps than DHC, but have 180 degree targeting. If you have single cannons + turrets and perhaps the wide angle torp / ferengi missiles, you can pretty much do the same broadside idea, because the smallest targeting arc is 180. You would have more forward damage than a beam ship too. Moving increases defense = get hit/crit less. It can be more versatile having more forward damage when needed and the option to broadside/keep moving. One build I've used on a cruiser is Fore: 2 DBB + 1BA + 1Torp. Aft: 3BA + Kinetic Cutting Beam. It's a good mix of forward/broadside damage.
I understand the desire to have something more like Fire at Will for cannons and something like Rapid Fire for beams. It would be a nice feature, but it would change too many builds. It would be neat because you could mix beams/cannons and not have to have multiple boff skills for different weapon types.
Maybe the answer is having the [Arc] mod on energy weapons, limited to 1x and only on purples or something. 45-->60. 90-->105. 180-->195. 250-->265. I think it would benefit the narrow arc weapons more, but that's sort of the point, right?
Yeah, I saw the post in the build thread. I've been trying to search the forums for some answers to some of the mechanics involved in what you described there.
The loss of the turret, going from APB1 to APO3, going from DEM3 to DEM2, +5 Weapon Power, Pets, and that nagging knowledge that you're squishier.
With them both being AtB builds, I was trying to find an answer to whether the APB1/DEM3 would actually result in more damage than the APO3/DEM2 - just because of that additional shield penetrating damage against lowered hull resistance. Even with folks running TT(s), there would be gaps as well as nuking that ate the TT(s)...I was even going to ask that question in a new thread - but I guess it's fine asking here, eh?
TBH, when I see a TR of 12 - I think 90 degree arcs and Sci Captains/Sci Vessels (the 12 being right between the 13 of the RSV and 11 of the DSSV). Which tends to get me into thinking Torps or DBB/Torps.
45 DHCs/DCs, 90 DBBs/Torps, 180 SCs, 250 BAs, 360 Turrets, "Mines".
Outside of Turrets and Mines, knowing how I can manage a ship based on the turn rate - it pretty much lines up the weapons (and how I manage a ship, lol - it's rare that I sport DHCs - I spend too much time in PvE where the NPCs sit there waiting for me to kill them instead of moving around like players do and it's made me lazy in my piloting).
Course, DBBs/Torps is a form of rainbow...and it would get weird doing something along the following lines for most:
TT1, BO2, CRF2, APO3
TS1, THY2
EPtS1, AtB1, DEM2
EPtA1, AtB1
HE1
Fore: DBB, Torp, SC, SC Aft: 3x Turrets
But...that's damn squishy with just EPtS, HE, and a TT to help out while you have shields.
To go Torps to the Wall, you'd need to drop the Techs for PWOs; but you could do something akin to:
TT1, THY2, DPB2, APO3
EPtS1, RSP1, EWP1
ET1, AtS1
TSS1, HE2
PH1
Where you could MAS the EWP, and look at Trans/Plasma/Tric for Torps/Mines. Maybe drop HE2 to HE1, drop TSS1, and add TBR1 for some mine/targetable defense, etc, etc, etc.
But I'm guessing you've looked at those various possibilities and felt pretty damn meh about them...
...which brought us to this discussion:
The 90 arc gap on Cannons, DBB not benefiting from RF. If either of those existed, you'd likely be golden for what you're trying to do...
If you're able to keep targets in a 12.5 degree cone in a slower turning cruiser, you should be rewarded somehow. :P
That is assuming the target only takes up 1 degree of space. I use DBB in front and BA in rear and I can hit a Cube, Unimatrix Vessel or Gateway with both at the same time.
An example: Escorts have access to dual cannons. The only exception to that rule is the Dreadnought. Why not make weapons that are specifically for Cruisers and Sci vessels?
I'm not saying "Get rid of the weapons types we have now." I'm saying add more weapon types, with weapons that are ship class specific.
Elim Garak
I would like to see maybe a Pulse Cannon or something for cruisers. Almost like an energy torpedo. Has a few seconds between shots, but can do nice energy damage. Maybe Science vessels could get a beam that is basically the same as a normal beam, but its attack is almost equal to Beam Overload1, but has several seconds between firing and takes a bit of energy.