Recluse/Vo'quv: Balance off with new JDread

ebonywyvern · January 2013

TL: DR;
► Vo'Quv and Recluse need a buff to make them compare to other carrier class ships.
► Recluse should compete with the JDread, not be one-upped by it.

Right so, patch fixes our scorpion double-launch on Recluses.

Kinda figured it'd happen sooner or later. Not too much of a big deal, but, with the announcement of the Jem Dreadnaught, coupled with it, you guys have basically removed almost all aspects of what made the ship unique, and one upped it in the same stroke. That, and the poor Vo'quv's just been tossed to the road.

From the stats of the Wiki:
Tholian Recluse Carrier

Hull:43,500
Shield Modifier:1.375
Weapons: 3 Fore, 3 Aft [Can equip dual cannons.]
Hangar Bays: 2
Crew:2500
Device Slots: 4
2 Tholian Widow Fighter Hangar Pets
Bridge Officers:
-- 1 Ensign Tactical
-- 1 Lieutenant Commander Engineering
-- 1 Ensign Science
-- 1 Lieutenant Commander Science
-- 1 Commander Universal
Consoles:
-- 2 Tactical
-- 4 Engineering
-- 4 Science
Turn Rate:5.5 degrees per second
Impulse Modifier:0.18
Bonus Power:
+5 engine power
+5 auxiliary power
Subsystem Targeting
Cost:800 Lobi

Vo'quv

Type:Carrier
Hull:42,000
Shield Modifier:1
Weapons: 3 Fore, 3 Aft
Can equip dual cannons
Hangar Bays: 2
Crew:4,000
Bridge Officers:
-- 1 Lieutenant Commander Tactical
-- 1 Lieutenant Commander Engineering
-- 2 Lieutenant Commander Science
Device Slots:4
Consoles: 2 Tactical, 3 Engineering, 4 Science
Turn Rate:5
Impulse Modifier:0.15
Inertia rating:20
Bonus Power:+10 auxiliary power
Cost: 120,000 Dilithium

Now compare this to the JDread:

Hull: 45,000
Shield Modifier: 1.15
Weapons: 4 Fore, 3 Aft [Can equip cannons]
Hangar Bays: 2
Crew: 3500
Device Slots: 3
2 Jem'Hadar Fighter Hanger Pets
Bridge Officer Stations:
-- 1 Commander Tactical
-- 1 Lieutenant Tactical
-- 1 Lieutenant Commander Engineering
-- 1 Ensign Science
-- 1 Lieutenant Universal
Console Modifications: 4 Tactical, 4 Engineering, 2 Science
Base Turn Rate: 6 degrees per second
Impulse Modifier: 0.17
Inertia rating: 70
Bonus Power:
+10 Weapon Power
+10 Auxiliary Power
Subsystem Targeting
Cost:800 Lobi

Going by standard Cryptic mentality, more crew = more massive ship.

So a ship, 40% more massive than the Recluse / 12% less massive than the Vo'Quv:
Moves the same speed / 10% faster (Expected)
Maneuvers 10% / 20% better
Has an extra weapons slot
And, (And this is the big one) has the inertia rating of a DEFIANT.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but both the Vo'quv and Recluse are the only two carriers with less than +15 subsystem power.
Old Revision: Correct me if I'm wrong, but both the Vo'quv and Recluse are also the only two ships in the game above Lieutenant grade that have less than 15 bonus subsystem power. Dread's got 20.
[Edit: seems support class ships only have +10 Aux]

This new JDread is a major slap to the face to recluse pilots. Moreso to anyone flying the Vo'quv who can't afford to get a Lobi ship. I can understand the need to make the new ships desirable, but AFAIK, you guys were shooting for a non-pay to win thing with ships. Now's not the time to start.
(Some may argue otherwise, but upto now, things like the Bug were actually pretty in-line with fleet ships, just with different layouts)

So, what I propose is this:
Up the Vo'quv and Recluse turn rate by 0.5?/sec
Give us another +5 subsystem power, at least, to put us inline with other carrier classes
Up our inertia modifiers (Vo'quv has 20, srsly.)
Or give us something worth having that competes with the Dread.

Discuss, and please try to keep it civil. =\

mustafatennick · January 2013

ebonywyvern wrote: »

Right so, patch fixes our scorpion double-launch on Recluses.

Kinda figured it'd happen sooner or later. Not too much of a big deal, but, with the announcement of the Jem Dreadnaught, coupled with it, you guys have basically removed almost all aspects of what made the ship unique, and one upped it in the same stroke. That, and the poor Vo'quv's just been tossed to the road.

From the stats of the Wiki:
Tholian Recluse Carrier

Vo'quv

Now compare this to the JDread:

Going by standard Cryptic mentality, more crew = more massive ship.

So a ship, 40% more massive than the Recluse / 12% less massive than the Vo'Quv:
Moves the same speed / 10% faster (Expected)
Maneuvers 10% / 20% better
Has an extra weapons slot
And, (And this is the big one) has the inertia rating of a DEFIANT.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but both the Vo'quv and Recluse are the only two carriers with less than +15 subsystem power.
Old Revision: Correct me if I'm wrong, but both the Vo'quv and Recluse are also the only two ships in the game above Lieutenant grade that have less than 15 bonus subsystem power. Dread's got 20.
[Edit: seems support class ships only have +10 Aux]

This new JDread is a major slap to the face to recluse pilots. Moreso to anyone flying the Vo'quv who can't afford to get a Lobi ship. I can understand the need to make the new ships desirable, but AFAIK, you guys were shooting for a non-pay to win thing with ships. Now's not the time to start.
(Some may argue otherwise, but upto now, things like the Bug were actually pretty in-line with fleet ships, just with different layouts)

So, what I propose is this:
Up the Vo'quv and Recluse turn rate by 0.5?/sec
Give us another +5 subsystem power, at least, to put us inline with other carrier classes
Up our inertia modifiers (Vo'quv has 20, srsly.)
Or give us something worth having that competes with the Dread.

Discuss, and please try to keep it civil. =\

My voquv is a beast some would say almost unbreakable (when power is going to shields)

Numbers is just numbers

Everyone knew the JH ships were goin to be fantastic thats what you get when you spend crazy real life money or crazy time earned ec getting one

I personally feel the voquv needs at least it's shield modifier looking at even if its the fleet version but it won't

malkarris · January 2013

I agree with this, and in a perfect world, I'd be jumping on the band wagon and trying to get some dev support.

But in this game, we live in a Perfect World. And this isn't about balance, this is about money. The lock box ships are kinda like cars in the real world. Think about it, when the car companies make cars, they make more money if you keep coming back to them every few years for a new car. They either do that by making the car not last past a set time, or by make a new car look better than your older one.

Cryptic just gave us the Recluse, and because the Lobi store doesn't change, that ship will be there forever. And code doesn't wear out, so when they bring out this new carrier, they have to make it better than the old carrier to get the largest number of people to buy it. If they made it the same as the Recluse then only ship collectors and the big spenders would want it. Everyone else would say, eh, I have my Recluse, or Atrox, or Vo'que and that's enough for me. And Cryptic doesn't make money off that.

So, lets make this about money. Let Cryptic create a new item in the lobi store, call it a ship upgrade pack, that requires you to have the ship it is for, like the armor upgrades. When you buy the pack, you lose your existing ship and get a pack with a new ship of the same type but is upgraded to the latest revision. So, you give up your Recluse and get back a new Recluse with the same turn rate and such as the Jem'Hadar Dreadnaught, all for the low cost of only 400 Lobi. Everyone is equally unhappy, Cryptic gets some money and we get a better ship that we like, but we have to pay for it.

ebonywyvern · January 2013

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the JDread isn't worth going after. Even if it was in-line with my Recluse I'd go after it, it just looks wicked, not to mention has a higher innate damage potential.

But, they shouldn't've had to make my ship, which was already 800 lobi, obsolete just to get my attention.
Bit blunt, but it's essentially what they did. Sure it flies and performs the same as it had (Minus a few dozen plasma burns here and there..) but the JDread just does most of the same things better.

mustafatennick · January 2013

Completely agree its the same with laptops

I don't mind having to go to Pcworld every year for the latest and greatest i7 or i20

But I will NOT play the lottery for one or open 160-190 lottery boxes

Which in that case I will have to do with what I have which is still working for now but when everyone owns a lotto ship ill just leave and play football manager or something

P.S. I love buying ships from z store normally spend around ?20 a month in there but the ships outa there suck especially red side so really getting afraid for MY gameplay the last was the Guramba ...in pvp it just gets laughed at only have the Gorn sci ship left to buy see what the new year brings

malkarris · January 2013

That's pretty much what I said Wyvern, but Cryptic wants as much money as they can get from these ships, so they think they have to make it not only look aswesome, but also outperform the last awesome thing.

Personally I would have liked some corvette sized tholian ships in the dilithium store so my Recluse could also have a BoP sized pet, but ah well.

And to make this clear, this isn't a lottery for the dreadnaught, its a pretty known price. Any 800 lobi ship costs someone about $180. That's assuming that each box gives an average of 5 lobi, which seems about right. Granted you may buy the keys with dilithium or EC, or you might just buy the ship off the market with EC, but for every Recluse or Dreadnaught you see, that $180 that Cryptic made off of someone.

marc8219 · January 2013

They didn't make the Recluse or Voquv obsolete with this new ship. It has way too much tacical, not enough eng and sci stations for a ship that still has bad turn. Voquv and Recluse will still be able to tank better and support better with more sci skills to use with pets. I do think they should get a few minor tweaks to their stats like slightly better inertia6 turn rate, +5 more power, and slightly more shield mod for Voquv, but even then without this these ships still have their places and can do tasks the Jem Dreadnought cant do.

To take full advantage of the Jem Dreadnoughts tac stations you will have to use DHC on it, some people can manage this on ships with bad turn in pve like Bortasqu pilots, but many won't be able to manage this and would be better off in another carrier.

ebonywyvern · January 2013

I've never really gotten the whole 'bad turning' argument on carriers. Stay at range, and backmove whilst feathering the throttle, and staying in arc is actually pretty easy. If the Hyperplasmas werent so OP with torp Doffs and photons/rockets accumulating procs, I'd definitely consider using DHC's on it.

I'll agree that the JDread is more tactically focused, but, it's still got a viable tank on it.

TT1 | TSV2 | TSV3 | APB3
TT1 | APB1
EP2S1 | EP2S2 | Aux2Sif2
HE1
TSS1 | TSS2

Asim, ZPEH, Tachyo, Mono
2x Field Gens
4x Ambiplasma

2x Elite Scorps

Could sub out the torps n scorps for more energy focus, but plasma is stupidly OP at the moment in PVE.

marc8219 · January 2013

Those plasma spam builds are good for eng, sci, or tacs not using crit builds, but on my tac with every possible crit bonus there is on it I do much better with DHC and quantums with all crit mods on it. Plasma burns don't help when you are killing targets fast, and the quantums just crit way harder and I am firing them often enough with doffs. It has a little more tac then is needed for a plasma spam build too though, you just need a Lt Cmdr tac station for a build like that, or your Recluse with Cmdr and ensign tac will be more then enough to give you all the torp skills you need and an attack patern and tac team

ebonywyvern · January 2013

Plasma procs crit when your torps crit.
Rom hyperplasmas crit as a trisect.
8-15k a torp plus 3x 1.2k-3k plasma ticks.
Crit build is perfectly reasonable.

dontdrunkimshoot · January 2013

but... the station setup on the jem carrier is horrible! you want the other carriers to be more like it? they would be horrible as well!

nothing that slow could get any decent use out of that many tac stations, something so fat and slow has to rely on heals primarily to live. and with the sci and eng stations you get, thats not nearly enough. in addition to the pets, carriers should be support platforms to other ships, the jem would be worthless at this. taking a jem carrier into pvp would be suicide, and it would be a worthless part of the team. they are crazy to give it the station setup they did, people will hate it when they try it out.

shar487a · January 2013

dontdrunkimshoot wrote: »

but... the station setup on the jem carrier is horrible! you want the other carriers to be more like it? they would be horrible as well!

nothing that slow could get any decent use out of that many tac stations, something so fat and slow has to rely on heals primarily to live. and with the sci and eng stations you get, thats not nearly enough. in addition to the pets, carriers should be support platforms to other ships, the jem would be worthless at this. taking a jem carrier into pvp would be suicide, and it would be a worthless part of the team. they are crazy to give it the station setup they did, people will hate it when they try it out.

The original Jem'Hadar dreadnought chased down and destroyed a Defiant (DS9:"Valiant"). It was not a carrier, so this latest implementation of creative license really leaves me baffled...

hereticknight085 · January 2013

shar487a wrote: »

The original Jem'Hadar dreadnought chased down and destroyed a Defiant (DS9:"Valiant"). It was not a carrier, so this latest implementation of creative license really leaves me baffled...

What destroyed the Valiant was a prototype Dreadnought Battleship. What they gave us was an adapted Dreadnought Carrier. Slight syntactical difference that answers your question XD.

derbeelzebot · January 2013

So a ship, 40% more massive than the Recluse / 12% less massive than the Vo'Quv:
Who gives a damn about crew? Even with the KHG set they die like flies on carriers anyway and lastly it doesn't do much.

Moves the same speed / 10% faster (Expected)
Nothing to see here.

Maneuvers 10% / 20% better
A genuine advantage, but we're still talking about Galaxy-X levels of maneuvering.

Has an extra weapons slot
Clear +1 advantage.

And, (And this is the big one) has the inertia rating of a DEFIANT.
Is there any confirmation of this? Because the only source for this value is the wiki page, which gives at least me the suspicion of a copy-pasta job from the Bug page.

Added Comments of mine.

I'm not denying that the JH carrier has clear advantages, but there are trade-offs and I think these are quite substantial. I'm quite content with the higher Shield capacity of my Recluse. And I wouldn't want to lose the third Lt.Cmd. ability of "normal" carrier either.

If the console would be good, that would be a bit upsetting, since the Tholian Tetryon Grid sucks big time. My only real beef is that there are Advanced Jemmy< Fighters/Bugs, but no Advanced Widows.

thepantsparty · January 2013

The Vo'quv and Recluse have access to Gravity Well, the JHDC doesn't. For carriers with awful turn rates (6 is the highest, but it's still TRIBBLE), that's a big deal. I think it's also worth comparing the JHDC to the Kar'fi, since that ship is also a 4/3 weapon 2-hanger "battle carrier."

mustafatennick · January 2013

Some boy aren't you!

People keep saying "with a lack of defensive measures" this thing still has a huge hull and a big shield modifier most escorts can survive most tussles and heal up with less defensive measures in place

The lack of advanced pets for the recluse is the only thing stopping me buying one and the price ATM

Have you ever used grav well in pvp one word springs to mind INEFFECTIVE

burstorion · January 2013

thepantsparty wrote: »

The Vo'quv and Recluse have access to Gravity Well, the JHDC doesn't. For carriers with awful turn rates (6 is the highest, but it's still TRIBBLE), that's a big deal. I think it's also worth comparing the JHDC to the Kar'fi, since that ship is also a 4/3 weapon 2-hanger "battle carrier."

Quite right...the Vo and Recluse can use grav well, which is very nice for spread barrages and simply holding a target in place (in pvp your milage will vary) - but one thing most seemed to have forgot about the Vo is its new mirror varient

My current setup (I'm experimenting, mind..oh Im an engie too..plus this is an stf setup, hence twin hes)

Tac - TT1, TT2, apbeta2
Eng - epts1,extend shield, aux2sif
Eng - epts1, aux2dampner
Sci - he1, he2, tss3, grav well 2 (God, I need to get 3...ahem)

Obviously you could cycle epts2 in pvp...but then the ensign slots are pretty useless imo

If anything I believe that, ignoring the fancy console and pets, the mirror voquv is by its sheer ability to tank, shield and hull and mount an ability that can increase its turn and speed, vastly superior to the 'bug spammer' (yes, the bug spammer does win out on inertia, but a good pilot can learn to cope)

Rather amusingly, I think by bowing to the demands of 'more pew pew' on a ship, the Jemmie dread has almost become as awful as a GalX so really for the voquv at least, the mirror varient has no issues...

..the recluse however...Ouch. On paper, the poor Recluse is pretty, to be blunt, boned, having to sacrifice potential shield and hull tankiness to have tactical skills which means its survivability is lower or its dps is poorer..not to mention twenty (!) bonus power and an extra fore weapon slot

Considering the lobi cost, either the recluse price should be lowered or some upgrade mechanic is introduced - the recluse as it stands is miles behind where it should be, on an equal footing

neo1nx · January 2013

this ship have too much turn rate for a ship this size, it a slap in the face for carrier and recluse pilote, and it a slap in the face for galaxy class pilot like myself who have the same turn rate like this monster.
and 70 inertia rating?!!!! seriously!!!.daesn't matter how bad it bo layout is,he just turn too much as compared to other ship of it size and SMALLER!!

bitemepwe · January 2013

Ive never liked that the voQ was so science heavy when its a vessel designed for attacking planets and large planetary installations.

burstorion · January 2013

bitemepwe wrote: »

Ive never liked that the voQ was so science heavy when its a vessel designed for attacking planets and large planetary installations.

I think it was purely given such a sci-centric layout for balance (lets face it, apart from shield skills, most offensive sci abilities are..well...useless except in pve, potentially balancing the then awesome ai of the bop pets) and likely to appease those wanting a kdf sci ship

In fluff terms though, I agree - the vo would be set up like the Jemmie dreadnought is, although with an engie ability of aux to dampner built in to help mitigate that turn rate..of course then it'd be a c-store ship, not a rank up freebie...