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What's the worst and least worst from the new lockbox?

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  • inktomi19inktomi19 Member Posts: 142 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    I don't quite get why people have issues with carriers in PvP? Carriers are cool, and battles filled with carrier pets feel a lot more like gigantic space battles (in which the players are the Big Players).

    I enjoy carriers in PvP and elsewhere, when I am commanding one, when I am in a team with one and when I am facing one.

    And I am looking forward to this lock box. Sure, the decision to make the JHAS carrier pet only available to people who own a T5 JHAS already is weird, but that's about it. And I am looking forward to upgrading my Jem Sets to Mk XII.

    I think most people would be okay with carriers if there were just a few of them, and if they were balanced so that they rely on their pets. But the new carriers are ships that would be fine without a hangar -- they are powerful enough without the pets.

    If all carriers were like the old KDF ones, and gave up something in order to get the hangar bays, then I don't think there would be much of an issue -- those carriers needed the pets to get by. But ships like the Vesta are great even without launching the pets, and then the pets are just added on.

    Cryptic seems to have forgotten that balance requires trade-offs.
  • webdeathwebdeath Member Posts: 1,570 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    The Worst?
    The fact you need the JHAS to unlock the JHAS carrier Pets..
    I'm a carrier lover, and I find this appalling. It appeals to Grinders, Farmers, Super Lucky, and Super Rich.

    Phased Polarons. Really? I mean it makes sense I guess.. but.. really?

    To get the new Consoles for the JHAS, you have to get both Carriers. (And I'm guessing the "true carrier" is more like a Kar'fi)

    New Scramble SNB Doff. Add them + SNB doff = No need for Sci officer any more.

    Least Worse?
    Mirror Ships.

    Boarding Party Defense Turret Doff.
    You think that your beta test was bad?
    Think about this:
    American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • shookyangshookyang Member Posts: 1,122
    edited January 2013
    inktomi19 wrote: »
    I think most people would be okay with carriers if there were just a few of them, and if they were balanced so that they rely on their pets. But the new carriers are ships that would be fine without a hangar -- they are powerful enough without the pets.

    If all carriers were like the old KDF ones, and gave up something in order to get the hangar bays, then I don't think there would be much of an issue -- those carriers needed the pets to get by. But ships like the Vesta are great even without launching the pets, and then the pets are just added on.

    Cryptic seems to have forgotten that balance requires trade-offs.
    Not to say I disagree with you, but we don't know for sure what the stats are on these ships yet.

    Generally, lockbox ships are supposed to be equivalent to Fleet ships, or close to it. There's nothing to suggest that these new ships are going to be that much superior to the other Fleet and lockbox ships.
  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    shookyang wrote: »
    There's nothing to suggest that these new ships are going to be that much superior to the other Fleet and lockbox ships.

    Nothing but past experience.
    "Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
  • shookyangshookyang Member Posts: 1,122
    edited January 2013
    dalnar83 wrote: »
    Nothing but past experience.
    Because it's a Jem'Hadar ship?

    Or because all of the lockbox ships were supposedly overpowered?

    Frankly, the majority of the lockbox ships out there are certainly better than what you can get in the Z-store, but only marginally. I'd say they are on par with Fleet ships. And, honestly, there hasn't been any lockbox ship that has tempted me to switch from my Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit. Hell, nothing made me want to switch from my Tactical Escort Retrofit either. They all seemed too gimmicky to me.

    Also, these new Jem'Hadar ships come in a lockbox. The Jem'Hadar Attach Ship comes in the recruitment pack, which costs almost double the cost of obtaining a key from the Z-store. Even then, I've killed and been killed by my share of JHASs.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Part of the thinking they're going to be over the top is what they did with the Recluse. It's not so much the lockbox carrier (think Orb Weaver) - it's the Lobi carrier - think Recluse, but Tac'd to Hell and back.
  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I've thought about it, and I have a new 'worst'. In fact, of all the worse things that could happen...

    This is...the WORST possible thing!

    (Well...that cat is out of the bag now. :P)



    Anywho...the new 'worst thing' I have is that pretty much this whole box boils down to:

    It's pretty much one step forward, and now two steps back. Cryptic was doing well by supporting PvP Bootcamp and such, even with all the recent issues that they've been fixed (Omega shields, Tric mines, etc), things seemed at least decent, PvP-wise...

    But now there's whole new lockbox of stuff. In and of itself I don't feel the problem lies there. It's the fact that there is SO MUCH stuff that isn't going to be good for PvP balance at all. I don't want to pass judgement personally on the new ships UNITL I see stats, but even those, the ships are still rare, but the Phased Polarons are gonna be a bad thing still, because ANYONE can run them.
    I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
    I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
  • edited January 2013
    This content has been removed.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    mimey2 wrote: »
    I've thought about it, and I have a new 'worst'. In fact, of all the worse things that could happen...

    This is...the WORST possible thing!

    (Well...that cat is out of the bag now. :P)



    Anywho...the new 'worst thing' I have is that pretty much this whole box boils down to:

    It's pretty much one step forward, and now two steps back. Cryptic was doing well by supporting PvP Bootcamp and such, even with all the recent issues that they've been fixed (Omega shields, Tric mines, etc), things seemed at least decent, PvP-wise...

    But now there's whole new lockbox of stuff. In and of itself I don't feel the problem lies there. It's the fact that there is SO MUCH stuff that isn't going to be good for PvP balance at all. I don't want to pass judgement personally on the new ships UNITL I see stats, but even those, the ships are still rare, but the Phased Polarons are gonna be a bad thing still, because ANYONE can run them.

    I still say it comes down to what I said in another thread.

    Cryptic's being smart. They're playing both sides of the coin, so to speak.

    Support the PvP Community - show support for things like the Boot Camp, OPvP Channel, Leagues, Private Matches (Scheduling things in OPvP or on the Forums).

    Support the MOAR POWA Community - by giving them things that are obvious examples of power creep, yet are not things that are broken and make a complete farce out of the PvE experience (like they're still working on how players can "TRIBBLE out Dispersal Patterns" of Trics - lol, still chuckle reading that line).

    Unfortunately, with the latter - the regular queues and Ker'rat are going to become cesspools of molten cheese and the AFK. The AFKers are fine with that. Those dripping molten cheese for the most part will be fine with it - they'll just try to bring more cheese than the next guy.

    But still, there's the former. From actual Fleet Battles to PUGmades, cheese-free matches could take place. It's up to the PvP Community to make that effort, and Cryptic seems willing to support that to an extent...it's a win-win for them.

    As that community grows, bringing more folks into classic and cheese-free tourneys/matches... somewhere down the road, Cryptic "might" start adding more on the PvP side... sure, anything like Ker'rat will be a nightmare; but maybe if the PvP Community handles it right - the community could grow that Cryptic would even look at limited/unlimited queues and PvP areas.

    In the end, it could very well be both a win-win for Cryptic and the PvP Community.
  • redrickyredricky Member Posts: 1,004 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    The scramble doff doesn't seem that bad. If you've ever really tried to get Photonic Officer to work and realized how flawed the mechanic it uses is then you might see where I'm coming from. It's the same, just in reverse.

    Any power that has more than 10 seconds left on its cooldown will see no total change in cd.

    Any power that has less than 10 seconds left on its cooldown will see no more than an additional 10 seconds added.

    But the most you'll get is a 10s delay. It's a dumb way to go about it, honestly. Just like PO should shave seconds off like Tech doffs, this should just straight up add 10s and be done with it.

    Unless they stack to 30s if you slot 3. Or refresh if applied from two different sources. Or both. If that's the case, it will be nasty.
    _______________
    CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
    Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    ^ yep, getting hit by a boarding party would be worse really
  • mkilczewskimkilczewski Member Posts: 284
    edited January 2013
    mimey2 wrote: »
    I was going to post this in the other lockbox thread here, but felt it was worth it's own topic.

    So, from a PvP standpoint, what do you feel is the worst and least worst things that is gonna come out of the new Dominion lockbox?

    To me, I'd have to say the Phased Polarons are gonna be the worst. I mean, the two best procs in the game for PvE AND PvP (IMO) in one weapon? Drain a ton of power, and then a chance to disable something on top of that?

    Suddenly, your weapons don't hit as hard, you are moving slower, your heals are weaker, and your shields aren't taking hits or getting any regen, AND then on top of that, one of those gets disabled.

    And that isn't even including the zillion other energy drain and disable abilities we can use on top of that.

    So while I don't deny the new Jem'hader ships (WHY does the heavy escort have a hangar?) aren't something I look forward to, we don't know their exact details as of yet. So those are still technically up in the air for the time being. But the Phased Polarons? We all know exactly what those do individually, and how potent they can be; now they will be together in one weapon.

    (If you like polarons, you'd better buy the consoles NOW before they go up too much in price; or rather more than they are already.)



    On the other end, I don't feel the console swap is that much of an issue. I mean, Feds are getting Bioneural Warhead, which I like as a fun toy...but that's kinda all to me. I love getting a crit on it, because all it's little shots auto-crit when you do.

    KDF is getting Nadeon Detonator, which I can't wait, but it still has all the normal shortcomings of a cheese console. It's a good console though. I can't wait to start using my B'rel as even more of a potent torpedo boat.

    The DOFFs are kind of hit and miss. Some of them are more PvE focused, but there's a couple of noteworthy ones. The biggest one probably being the SS DOFF, due to the fact that you can use that with SNB DOFFs and/or normal SNB to really mess up someone's BOFFs.



    That's the biggest things to me atm about this. The Jem'hader consoles could be trouble, but I'd rather know the exact details first of the other ships and the consoles before I decide.



    Also, I think at this point folks, 'drain builds' are NOT KDF exclusive anymore. There's way too many things nowadays to allow a Fed player a drain build even without siphon drones. (Heck, just think of the Jem'hader ships with siphon drones when they come out).

    Hmmm... What's the worst, and least worst of having Lou Gehrig's Disease?
  • maicake716maicake716 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    redricky wrote: »
    The scramble doff doesn't seem that bad. If you've ever really tried to get Photonic Officer to work and realized how flawed the mechanic it uses is then you might see where I'm coming from. It's the same, just in reverse.

    Any power that has more than 10 seconds left on its cooldown will see no total change in cd.

    Any power that has less than 10 seconds left on its cooldown will see no more than an additional 10 seconds added.

    But the most you'll get is a 10s delay. It's a dumb way to go about it, honestly. Just like PO should shave seconds off like Tech doffs, this should just straight up add 10s and be done with it.

    Unless they stack to 30s if you slot 3. Or refresh if applied from two different sources. Or both. If that's the case, it will be nasty.

    except that... well... it'll make more people see Scramble Senors as an attracitve option....

    and everyone knows how awesome and wanted ss is in pvp. -rolls eyes-

    just when scramble sensors was considered to not be broken and a reasonable power they had to go and frack it up with a stupid and pointless doff....
    mancom wrote: »
    Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
    Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
    Do you even Science Bro?
  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    maicake716 wrote: »
    except that... well... it'll make more people see Scramble Senors as an attracitve option....

    and everyone knows how awesome and wanted ss is in pvp. -rolls eyes-

    just when scramble sensors was considered to not be broken and a reasonable power they had to go and frack it up with a stupid and pointless doff....

    Along the lines of you last point, has anyone tested to see if SS still reveals cloaked allies or not. In otherwords in the past if KDF used on a Fed, the Fed could now see cloaked KDF ships they might not have been able to otherwise see.
    [Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
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  • spacepenguin121spacepenguin121 Member Posts: 104 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    p2wsucks wrote: »
    Along the lines of you last point, has anyone tested to see if SS still reveals cloaked allies or not. In otherwords in the past if KDF used on a Fed, the Fed could now see cloaked KDF ships they might not have been able to otherwise see.

    I'm pretty sure it still does, as there were a few times in a recent FvK where I was able to see a cloaked bop at larger distances than usual. At the time I wasn't sure why, but now that you mention this, I was scrambled each time it happened.
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  • snoge00fsnoge00f Member Posts: 1,812 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Cloak detection is funny.

    I've seen guys out to 18km before when they are supposedly cloaked and not buffing up or anything really.

    I wasn't scrambled either.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    It would be hillarious if the scramble doff would work with AMS.
    "Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
  • snoge00fsnoge00f Member Posts: 1,812 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Yeah I guess, but Bort claims it doesn't.

    Thankfully.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • rudiefix1rudiefix1 Member Posts: 420
    edited January 2013
    Ok, ill get it that the deadnought is like the KAr'Fi. It has 4 front and 3 aft weapons. Can equip dual heavies. But why also target subsystems. Thats really sick for a 7 weapon ship. (with also 2 hangars).


    side question; does anyone know if sensor analysis works also on the pets with the vesta for example? Like the tactical weapons consoles do?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    @rudiefix Feds: Rudiefix / Thron / Opa
    @rudiefix KDFs: Lill / Xifeidur / Dehr / Ugly
    @rudiefix Roms (KDF alligned): Chicita
  • redrickyredricky Member Posts: 1,004 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Hmmm... What's the worst, and least worst of having Lou Gehrig's Disease?
    You know when we were young I used to say to him, "Lou, there's a disease out there that has your name written all over it."
    maicake716 wrote: »
    except that... well... it'll make more people see Scramble Senors as an attracitve option....

    and everyone knows how awesome and wanted ss is in pvp. -rolls eyes-

    just when scramble sensors was considered to not be broken and a reasonable power they had to go and frack it up with a stupid and pointless doff....
    Agreed. I have no desire to see it used more often. Also it's less than thrilling to see them make a doff for a power that has been the source of so many bugs in the past.
    _______________
    CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
    Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
  • edna#7310 edna Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    What I "like" about this (thou it will fit to every sci ship released in the last few month) is the constant spawning of npcs in pvp.More and more carriers finally turned PvP in PvE .Ofcourse the server connection and game engine is the same and has to deal with more things spawned ,but who cares as long little Timmy gets a ship which can spawn few thousands friendly npc's is all Ok.
  • drumcd74656drumcd74656 Member Posts: 183 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    voxlagind wrote: »
    ...

    The long raging debate has been how powerful the BUG is. People who have it claim that it's fine, people who don't recognize how amazing it is. With the consoles, people flying it are now going to have to accept the criticism they receive for flying what will be the ultimate Pay-to-Win ship.

    ...

    For the time being, it will further the divide between the "haves" and "have nots", and will cause more players to avoid PvP rather than enrich it.
    devorasx wrote: »
    Worse is that I feel the whole pvp bootcamp becomes heavily undermined by the lockbox. We at bootcamp are trying to balance and learn basics by playing fair and just. Cryptic claim to help and bless the bootcamp for its purpose, but this lockbox just screams hyporcrisy.This TRIBBLE lockbox, fueled by sheer greed and lust for money is ruining pvp further. Even the scramble sensor doff has no use in pve whatsoever, and certainly meant for pvp.

    Why cryptic and PWE why???

    I agree heavily with both of these assessments.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I still say it comes down to what I said in another thread.

    Cryptic's being smart. They're playing both sides of the coin, so to speak.

    Support the PvP Community - show support for things like the Boot Camp, OPvP Channel, Leagues, Private Matches (Scheduling things in OPvP or on the Forums).

    Support the MOAR POWA Community - by giving them things that are obvious examples of power creep, yet are not things that are broken and make a complete farce out of the PvE experience (like they're still working on how players can "TRIBBLE out Dispersal Patterns" of Trics - lol, still chuckle reading that line).

    Unfortunately, with the latter - the regular queues and Ker'rat are going to become cesspools of molten cheese and the AFK. The AFKers are fine with that. Those dripping molten cheese for the most part will be fine with it - they'll just try to bring more cheese than the next guy.

    But still, there's the former. From actual Fleet Battles to PUGmades, cheese-free matches could take place. It's up to the PvP Community to make that effort, and Cryptic seems willing to support that to an extent...it's a win-win for them.

    As that community grows, bringing more folks into classic and cheese-free tourneys/matches... somewhere down the road, Cryptic "might" start adding more on the PvP side... sure, anything like Ker'rat will be a nightmare; but maybe if the PvP Community handles it right - the community could grow that Cryptic would even look at limited/unlimited queues and PvP areas.

    In the end, it could very well be both a win-win for Cryptic and the PvP Community.


    Unfortunately, while that's good in theory, it can also blow up in their faces. Trying to appease both sides can also potentially mean they'll tick off both sides royally.

    Cryptic releases item A with ship B. This appeals to the 'more power' crowd. However, the PvP crowd (mostly) uniformly declares it OP, for whatever reason.

    So the item or ship is nerfed.

    This ticks off the 'power' crowd because their stuff got nerfed, and the PvP crowd is fine with the item. So Cryptic makes a 'middle ground' change to it, and from there, nobody is really happy anymore because PvPers might consider it re-OPed again, while the 'power' crowd just wants their item back how it was before.

    And if this repeats several times...

    Eventually people might be excited for something new, but also worried and annoyed that what they get will eventually be nerfed anyways.



    Putting all that aside, nobody who PvPs is truly happy because more and more is being released that just adds heaps of cheese to places like the queues and Ker'rat. So nobody is really happy there, except those using it. The best example is the console swap; sure there's been some good consoles that each side has gotten, but that is also just it, both factions are gaining those consoles which only tosses in more and more cheese without really enhancing either side's enjoyment of the game or PvP.



    I'm not saying there can't be a middle ground somewhere, it's more that the situation I described above is kind of starting to happen. There are player-initiatives, but that's also just it: PLAYER, not Cryptic.

    I'm personally ok with new stuff. I like variety. I like seeing what kinds of interesting things they put into the game. But, I've never seen a game release THIS much stuff either. Namely just more and more of a power creep, blending the factions unique stuff into one thing, and so on.
    I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
    I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
  • crusty8maccrusty8mac Member Posts: 1,381 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    How many bug ships do you see? .... People win them and then move on so they are no longer in the game.

    I see them all the time in PvP. At times in the FvK matches, the lockbox ships on the Fed side are more numerous than all the others.
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