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A look back over my last year in a carrier
resoundingenvoy
Member Posts: 439
I've been playing about a year if I have my dates right, and been playing with a Atrox most of that. If I were go give my list of complaints in separate thread there would be many; So:
1) Crew: What crew? A carrier doesn't have a able crew after the first two minuets. Even with a emergency force field generator and bio-monitor after the first death or the first minuet or two you'll never see them again for the entire length of the engagement. A percent of 3,000 get's chip away at too fast to get back on their feat while a crew of 200 will be around with at least 100 as long as the ship is.
One balance point flat on it's face.
Suggested fix: A single carrier only EFF/BO console or passive ability that can keep up with crews over 1000.
2) Flying the brick: It flies? The Vo'Quv (being a free teir 4 'parody' :rolleyes:) of the 20-25$ Atrox, and the Atrox can not actually engage a target at better then half speed. Nor do their turn rates at any point exceed 8/degree per second without evasive maneuvers or a sub-space jumper.
Thematically, that's fine. Practically?
Despite being able to theoretically 'use' dual or heavy dual cannons it can't. Any target paying attention can escape the firing arc with ease. Even another carrier!
Two balance points flat on it's face.
I'd touch on how a escort is actually able to use and gather a huge +defense bonus from it's speed, but that brings up another point. No carrier can ever control the battle field. A escort always decides when to start and end a fight. Making them practically unbeatable. The best a carrier pilot can hope for is a draw or not to die. That, or to get lucky a escort make a mistake so they can't just run away.
Three balance points flat on it's face.
Whats more for only have 20-30% more health then a escort, it can not shake one using the same on it. Meaning it has a escort terminally affixed to it's rear shield facing, using six+ cannons(including the turrets there) to a carrier's three rear weapons.
Four balance points flat on it's face.
What about fighters? Even if a gravity well, tycon's rift, shock wave, torpedo volley, or scatter volley from any player on the field hasn't destroyed them? Because of Two and Three, it's easier to just ignore fighters, kill the host carrier, and be done with the whole lot. If you can keep four to twelve effectively fighting.
Five balance points flat on it's face.
Suggested fix: Give carriers 200-400K hull to scale how long it takes a escort to kill it to how long it will take a carrier to kill a escort.
3) What about all those shiny science and engineering abilities: Right ... pull the other leg. Even if other threads hadn't covered how badly they're laughably outstripped by simply blowing something up faster with tactical abilities?
That argument is basically I should poor everything I've got into tanking to save my own hide long enough to make a dent. Not that I should actually use those bridge officer slots for what they're meant to be used for. For say healing the team, or disabling a target.
Six balance points flat on it's face.
Suggested fix: Carrier (or cruiser) only heavy beam arrays or carrier only super heavy beam arrays.
4) Comparison to the Kar'Fi: Not only does the Kar'Fi(which I also own) cost 500Zen less, it has the turn rate to use cannon, a console, and _two_ hanger types specific to it.
Because it does far more damage, better maneuverability (further it's ability to do damage, and escape), it also has it's own dedicated console that's ... in short awesome for a carrier. If it does get boxed it by faster more heavily armed ships, it has a unbeatable battle cloak that it can not only fire from, but can't be targeted.
What's more, it's the only carrier one of two I can think of that doesn't have a fleet refit. Both the armitage (another escort hybrid), and the free Vo'Quv (The ship the Atrox was meant to parody) has a fleet refit.
Do I really need do enumerate that one?
Suggested fix: Give the Atrox it's own console that at the very least gives it the same stealth bonus as the stalkers. Give the Atrox it's own frigates. At the least a third hanger slot.
1) Crew: What crew? A carrier doesn't have a able crew after the first two minuets. Even with a emergency force field generator and bio-monitor after the first death or the first minuet or two you'll never see them again for the entire length of the engagement. A percent of 3,000 get's chip away at too fast to get back on their feat while a crew of 200 will be around with at least 100 as long as the ship is.
One balance point flat on it's face.
Suggested fix: A single carrier only EFF/BO console or passive ability that can keep up with crews over 1000.
2) Flying the brick: It flies? The Vo'Quv (being a free teir 4 'parody' :rolleyes:) of the 20-25$ Atrox, and the Atrox can not actually engage a target at better then half speed. Nor do their turn rates at any point exceed 8/degree per second without evasive maneuvers or a sub-space jumper.
Thematically, that's fine. Practically?
Despite being able to theoretically 'use' dual or heavy dual cannons it can't. Any target paying attention can escape the firing arc with ease. Even another carrier!
Two balance points flat on it's face.
I'd touch on how a escort is actually able to use and gather a huge +defense bonus from it's speed, but that brings up another point. No carrier can ever control the battle field. A escort always decides when to start and end a fight. Making them practically unbeatable. The best a carrier pilot can hope for is a draw or not to die. That, or to get lucky a escort make a mistake so they can't just run away.
Three balance points flat on it's face.
Whats more for only have 20-30% more health then a escort, it can not shake one using the same on it. Meaning it has a escort terminally affixed to it's rear shield facing, using six+ cannons(including the turrets there) to a carrier's three rear weapons.
Four balance points flat on it's face.
What about fighters? Even if a gravity well, tycon's rift, shock wave, torpedo volley, or scatter volley from any player on the field hasn't destroyed them? Because of Two and Three, it's easier to just ignore fighters, kill the host carrier, and be done with the whole lot. If you can keep four to twelve effectively fighting.
Five balance points flat on it's face.
Suggested fix: Give carriers 200-400K hull to scale how long it takes a escort to kill it to how long it will take a carrier to kill a escort.
3) What about all those shiny science and engineering abilities: Right ... pull the other leg. Even if other threads hadn't covered how badly they're laughably outstripped by simply blowing something up faster with tactical abilities?
That argument is basically I should poor everything I've got into tanking to save my own hide long enough to make a dent. Not that I should actually use those bridge officer slots for what they're meant to be used for. For say healing the team, or disabling a target.
Six balance points flat on it's face.
Suggested fix: Carrier (or cruiser) only heavy beam arrays or carrier only super heavy beam arrays.
4) Comparison to the Kar'Fi: Not only does the Kar'Fi(which I also own) cost 500Zen less, it has the turn rate to use cannon, a console, and _two_ hanger types specific to it.
Because it does far more damage, better maneuverability (further it's ability to do damage, and escape), it also has it's own dedicated console that's ... in short awesome for a carrier. If it does get boxed it by faster more heavily armed ships, it has a unbeatable battle cloak that it can not only fire from, but can't be targeted.
What's more, it's the only carrier one of two I can think of that doesn't have a fleet refit. Both the armitage (another escort hybrid), and the free Vo'Quv (The ship the Atrox was meant to parody) has a fleet refit.
Do I really need do enumerate that one?
Suggested fix: Give the Atrox it's own console that at the very least gives it the same stealth bonus as the stalkers. Give the Atrox it's own frigates. At the least a third hanger slot.
Post edited by resoundingenvoy on
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Comments
Things I would like to see:
1) carriers get Tractor Beam 1 for free. It makes sense...
2) Stop being a floating Graveyard. Carriers are punished for having higher crew counts, one torp to it and more than a quarter to half your crew is in sick bay or dead. Fix this.
3) pet AI..I swear my fighters are manned by Pakleds.. When asking about fed fighters i was told to go with peregrins. Why? because when they die the warp core breach can damage enemies..really? wow, fed tactics have changed a bit over the years..
4) either slightly less mass or slightly better turn, it shouldent turn on a dime but I should be able to use my sub nuke, one of my main sci abilities..
A) I agree, the crew death is a bit silly
C)Heck no. Carriers can be tanky if you build them right. Either you are doing something wrong, not using hangers to your advatanage e.g. shield repairs, or you're fighting a more experianced escort
D)There's a lot to be said about the bedeviling builds a science ship can mix up
E) Higher turn rate, cannons and different boff layout karfi loses surviability for dps. console is good but still a sacrifice to other consoles. As for the 2 unique hanger pets that was apparently a dev decision, cant speak from experiance so cant really comment on that
F) You've pointed out the Cat carrier is bad, why would you want a fleet version of a BAD ship? furthermore the armitage refit or even the vesta sounds like it would suit you better, you can have the cannons and turn rate your desperate for, and with the vesta you even can use science abilities that you seem to like
G) From what i've seen of stalker fighters their stealth bonus is fairly fail, so the console probably wouldnt be that good either
A) i dont understand how lacking a free one = less pet choice? Please explain
C) Agreed, some kind of resistance woudl be nice, or actually on death for crew to be at max.. i mean if we did magically return to perfect health on respawn.. shouldnt our crew
D) While it DID improve, it still can be a bit cluncky, e.g. on KASE targeting a transformer translates to 'attack what you want on the opposite side of the map!' to my fighters..
E) If you want turn rate for 90degree angle abilities dont use a carrier ^^
:P
My gripe there is a little twisty. I live longer in my Kar'Fi by simple virtue of it's console, and nothing lives long enough that I need the difference in health. It can actually use the cannons the Atrox can not. The Kar'Fi can actually escape a losing fight.
I actually usually do live the longest in my team in a Atrox. Pound for pound though, even counting the down time of a re spawn, a equally built escort will accomplish more. By simple virtue of I can't use what I do have, and what I can use doesn't match.
Edit: I should qualify that. I don't mean doesn't match DPS, I mean isn't even a inverse match. Try running a Klingon defense mission in a Vo'Quv vs. Whatever a Teir 4 escort is. I'm willing to grantee you while your blow up more in the escort? You'll still finish faster even counting the down time.
It should be slow and steady vs. fast and violent, but it's no where near that idiom.
The third hanger and stealth by is me begging for table scraps. Not that I want it. Again, a bit of twisty reasoning.
Mask energy signature on a Atrox is awesome because everything else is so screwed up. It gives me a chance to look things over, and not be the first big blue shiny target.
It lets me show up after the more heavily armed have already picked their targets so they aren't flanking me out of the gate. It's a misdirection to cover the fact I can't shake them. I don't have a need to shake them if they aren't targeting me.
Did I cross points there? I was just complaining the Kar'Fi, being the cheaper ship, has more options then the ship I paid more for.
(edit) I mean i have found someone who GENUINELY wanted battle cloaking defiants popping out of the atrox..
I suppose the extra stealth could have its merits, but i would think going for the KHG space set would appease that right off the bat
(also the second quote/set of points was in response to paneth48 ^^)
The 1-hanger hybrids also work, but they're not really carriers.
Should this be improved?
Probably.
But improving the Atrox makes no sense without improving the Voquv aswell. They're both pretty bad.
He's dead, Jim.
That's my challenge to the reader and dev team:
Because they're both 'free'? Make a Klingon, Get a Vo'Quv. Then get any other 'free' teir 4 ship. Gear them in like or at least near like things. Pick a target like a defense mission. See how much harder it is in the Vo'Quv. Not that it's 'hard', but I doubt it will take long for the gap to show up.
I'd say pair off the Atrox and Kar'Fi (both being paid for ships), but that's more zen then it takes to get a entire ship-pack.
The fighter AI is so-so, and all fighters need to move faster! They just sit there when a ship explodes sometimes though, wtf?
The Atrox does need something very unique to it, being a big science ship, a special console of some kind. What other suggestions can we get on it? Something that...buffs the fighters? Buffs the shields? Maybe the movement and defense stats?
The Recluse is an absolute monster if you know how to fit it.
At least the Vo'Quv is free AND can use frigates as well as Orion Marauders (contraband = chaching!!)
Edit: while its pretty hard to get, the Recluse does seem pretty good as well.
FFS it's like Carrier don't Exist in real life that can't be modeled off of in the way of Tactics.. but this game limits how carriers should function. They are supposed to be mobile refueling and storage stations for Fighters..
If you look up the Definition of AirCraft carrier you find it says among other things that its a mobile Air base..
Adapted into Star Trek I would say a Carrier is a mobile Space base. Would you agree?
FFS a Voquv can spit out BOPS. If that isn't a Mobile Space base then IDK what is. The problem is you can't command it as such. You shouldn't have to command a Carrier with the tactics of Taking it into direct combat but instead using your limitless amount of fighter/frigates to destroy your target.
But before i go ranting on further I'll stop sense it serves no point. I don't see Cryptic ever changing things with carriers enough to allow them to be used as true Mobile space bases.
This Isn't Battle Star Galactica But with the way we are meant to command carriers in this game you'd think it was.
That said:
My understanding is the Nurse Doff does wonders w/keeping crew alive. There's also BFI and Jem shields and Aux2Damp.
Fyi, there are Doffs that boost a Carriers defense when in recall mode if needed.
The Kar'fi is more than capable of using DHCs in PvE or PvP if you really want to. It's phase console has a long cooldown, short uptime and is disabled but zeroing it's aux or using an anti cloak ability such as TBs (hello danubes).
For PvP, Escorts are supposed to be able to dictacte when to engage or not. It and team support are what's supposed to keep tham alive.
Depending on your carrier's Sci layout and pets. Your job is to keep them from running and stripping their defenses. Debuffs are the point of Sci ships. They're the anti-Escort support.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
The Atrox _can_ be nasty, but you have to work x5 as hard as in any other ship (x10 as a escort :P), and min-max everything else into absurdity.
If you wanted to nit pick over classification, you could probably nitpick more.
The fighters would need to be a lot more awesome to pull that off. I'm begging for the improvement that requires the least work to put the Atrox on par with other ship instead of just getting by.
Both. PvE is passable simple because I've learned to "tank" by bending over backwards and standing on my head. (Mostly I just took the embassy -threat consoles and let escort suck up hate by doing massively more damage. Not that even the best tank I've seen does more then acceptable.) In PvP, I can't think of much more to say then I did in my OP without starting a very long rant.
I seem to have lost the point here somewhere? Anyone take that challenge?
This isn't a "woe is me", "I secretly want a escort, but don't", or "My Atrox isn't king of the hill threat." (Though granted, if it was, I wouldn't complain enough to make this thread. :P)
This is a: The Atrox is pretty much out stripped by everything else thread. It can preform, but you have to work x5-x10 harder and min-max to make it. I don't fly just or study just a Atrox. I actually do have a point of reference.
If I wanted to cry about it, I'd cry how ship after ship has been released after it. All of them either out tank it, out fly it, out gun it, or all of the above.
Edit: I just want my favorite ship working without having to work above any beyond anyone else.
If fighters, and pets in general, were smarter a lot of the complaints about carriers would probably go away. If they avoided danger, focused fire on weaker shields, and used their torpedoes and skills intelligently (rather than randomly), they'd be something to be feared. Of course, that gets into the general complaint of "why is the AI so stupid?"
As it stands, I run Danubes in the Armitage because if one happens to tractor a target, it helps make up for the Armitage being on the slow end for escorts. They help some with clearing out torpedoes and enemy fighters too, but that's about it.
(sorry) :P