Escorts: Most of their power goes to weapons/shields/engines, its a combat ship. This means it has room for little eles on it.
Cruisers: Big heavy ships in space, there were ment as exploration/deep space ships. Most of their power is diverted to science and engineering stations, not to mention countless life support options for 500 to 2000 crew members, tons of computers, holodecks, several transporter stations.
This is not also counting that dual heavies if improperly done can drain your weapons power to nil on a CRF or CSV.
Besides, dont cruisers have +5 to all sub systems? AND you want a boost in weapons power?
Escorts: Most of their power goes to weapons/shields/engines, its a combat ship. This means it has room for little eles on it.
Cruisers: Big heavy ships in space, there were ment as exploration/deep space ships. Most of their power is diverted to science and engineering stations, not to mention countless life support options for 500 to 2000 crew members, tons of computers, holodecks, several transporter stations.
Non-essential systems can be shut off during combat, but STO does not really get that detailed.
This is not also counting that dual heavies if improperly done can drain your weapons power to nil on a CRF or CSV.
Besides, dont cruisers have +5 to all sub systems? AND you want a boost in weapons power?
That +5 energy is just too small a bonus to actually matter in combat (a single phaser array drains 8 with 1 shot!). This is why I suggested doubling the bonus to +10, then testing it out on Tribble.
Cruisers: Big heavy ships in space, there were ment as exploration/deep space ships. Most of their power is diverted to science and engineering stations, not to mention countless life support options for 500 to 2000 crew members, tons of computers, holodecks, several transporter stations.
Minor quibble:
More than half of the ships in STO (notable exceptions being BoPs, T2 fed ships and Defiants) have crews at or above the multi-hundred number.
And lets not get started on the cruisers that have been turned into escorts by Cryptic to confuse things even more.
Non-essential systems can be shut off during combat, but STO does not really get that detailed.
That +5 energy is just too small a bonus to actually matter in combat (a single phaser array drains 8 with 1 shot!). This is why I suggested doubling the bonus to +10, then testing it out on Tribble.
Did you take into account when they originally balanced the ships power wise that the cruiser is ment to be piloted by an engineer, a class that can get all power levels to +100 if not higher? Not to mention have a skill that lowers their weapons power usage?
The "It needs more weapons power because its bigger" is a common complaint of Tactical captains in cruisers (who really dont need more weapons power, I have a tac in a Exe who does very well damage wise).
It also should be worth noting not all cruisers have +5 to all systems, some indeed have +10 to weapons.
Again though the cruiser was balanced for the engineer, and it reflects that.
Why not just drop the Beam Arrays to -9?
Unless the different weapon types have different efficiencies, they're delivering less energy than cannons but more than turrets. So -9.
Why not just drop the Beam Arrays to -9?
Unless the different weapon types have different efficiencies, they're delivering less energy than cannons but more than turrets. So -9.
My fears is that it would not solve anything as the firing rate would still cause a choke in weapon power with rapid contiuos firing thus giving the same issue. Extremely rapid drop off in damage.
Did you take into account when they originally balanced the ships power wise that the cruiser is ment to be piloted by an engineer, a class that can get all power levels to +100 if not higher? Not to mention have a skill that lowers their weapons power usage?
The "It needs more weapons power because its bigger" is a common complaint of Tactical captains in cruisers (who really dont need more weapons power, I have a tac in a Exe who does very well damage wise).
It also should be worth noting not all cruisers have +5 to all systems, some indeed have +10 to weapons.
Again though the cruiser was balanced for the engineer, and it reflects that.
I've always questioned the profession = ship mentality. Any profession can jump into an escort and deal nice DPS numbers... not as well as a Tac, but still good numbers. However, the same cannot be said any non-engineer trying to tank in a cruiser. The cruiser just seems too dependent on an engineer in the captain's chair as opposed to being a well rounded combat ship like escorts. Yes, escorts are definitely more fragile, but they seem to do better than the cruisers since STO is so DPS-oriented.
I like the idea of reducing beam damage drop off at range. So cannons do their full damage up close and less at long range, and beams do good damage at any range.
True, lots of required figures are missing to properly calculate how warp power scales with engine size. We are also missing the power requirement numbers for a star ship as size increases. We do know one thing: Larger Fed Star ships are usually much faster than smaller vessels. I'm guessing their increased warp core sizes have something to do with this, but it would only be a guess
Yes, but...
Gamewise, I'm not aware that warp speed (in sector space) has different maximum values based on the ship model or class in general. There are exceptions, I believe, but it's not the rule AFAIK. Maybe we should be talking about impulse speed in relation to any synergy with weapons and engine power.
Because if this held true, cruisers ought to have a higher maximum impulse speed than any escort (even if turn rate happened to be lousy). But this isn't the case. You can make a pretty good argument that a small ship with an oversized impulse engine ought to be faster and use less power than a larger ship with the same engine.
But I digress... this is really about weapons power balance. The design principle Cryptic is following is that continuous use of multiple energy weapons has diminishing returns. Combine that with the fact that kinetic damage is more effective against hull than anything else (which I don't entirely agree with), and it's the reason why pure beam boats aren't all that efficient and many people have at least one torp launcher if not more.
The reason people want all beams on cruisers isn't because they do more damage per weapon, but because the limited turn rate means that a cruiser can bring more weapons to bear if they're using beam arrays.
If cruisers are indeed "gimped", it's because of a combination of factors, not just one thing. The problem for Cryptic is how to apply the game mechanics in a consistent way and achieve balance for every variation.
I wonder if it would be possible to construct a keybind that allowed one to fire all of their energy weapons in sequence rather than simultaneously? If you have a gaming keyboard/mouse and could write a macro you could do it for sure. That would circumvent the diminishing returns for firing multiple weapons, wouldn't it?
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I wonder if it would be possible to construct a keybind that allowed one to fire all of their energy weapons in sequence rather than simultaneously? If you have a gaming keyboard/mouse and could write a macro you could do it for sure. That would circumvent the diminishing returns for firing multiple weapons, wouldn't it?
or you could put them all on row 1 of the skill tray and activate them manually
I think the warp speed of a craft is determined by the size of its warp coils. Larger warp coils create a more intense subspace field around the craft, allowing it to reach faster warp speeds.
Cruisers in general have larger nacelles than escorts do, so they would have bigger warp coils than escorts do.
Having a bigger power core would only be one factor of why Cruisers would reach higher warp speeds. (I think)
But I don't think Cruisers should have higher weapon power bonuses than escorts. Most Cruisers get +5 to all subsystems rather than the +10 or +15 to weapons most escorts do and I think that's fine.
My fears is that it would not solve anything as the firing rate would still cause a choke in weapon power with rapid contiuos firing thus giving the same issue. Extremely rapid drop off in damage.
I don't know, personally I never had any trouble keeping my power at above 100 while I flew my Oddy with 6 beams, the Rapid Fire Missile Launcher, and a Kinetic Cutting Beam.
Skill and console setup, along with constant EPtW1 uptime. Nadion or EPS recovered from FAW quickly enough.
Didn't have trouble when I ran 8 beams either, back before I could actually get the two kinetic weapons.
I've always questioned the profession = ship mentality. Any profession can jump into an escort and deal nice DPS numbers... not as well as a Tac, but still good numbers. However, the same cannot be said any non-engineer trying to tank in a cruiser. The cruiser just seems too dependent on an engineer in the captain's chair as opposed to being a well rounded combat ship like escorts. Yes, escorts are definitely more fragile, but they seem to do better than the cruisers since STO is so DPS-oriented.
That's not really true either. My prefered captain in a cruiser is actually a tactical officer, while I can not tank and manage power AS well as an engineer I do very well at it, the only prof I would say that actually is hurt by being in a cruiser is Sci, and in general Sci has been getting it up the butt since season 1 anyway.
So yes, you can put anyone you want in any ship you want, but each brings bonuses to specific ships, so they tend to do better in those ships. Thats what those ships are geared for.
I'm not saying you can not captain a sci ship for example with a tactical captain for example, but hes not going to be doing what he does best in there, same goes for engineer. Though to be fair the best fun Ive ever had was an engineer in a sci ship lol.
I do however think beam mechanics NEED to be reworked, they do take too much power to use, adding +5 power is not going to help that.
I do kind of see the OP's point. How are cruisers which mount much larger warp reactors generating the same net energy levels as their smaller escort counterparts? This is similar to a US Aircraft Carrier with 8 nuclear reactors putting out the same power levels as a small destroyer -- it just doesn't make sense.
I think cruisers do deserve access to more passive bonus energy than the flat +15 that all ships get. This more accurately reflects their supposedly superior onboard power systems. They should not have to use BOFF abilties to get temporary power bonuses when they should have more total power at all times.
What did they say about the Defiant in DSN? Something about to OP for its size.
And why the heck is a i7 a lot faster than the computers used by the NASA in 1969? They were bigger. Okay, this lacks a little bit, since 40 years are between them, but bigger doesnt mean better.
That's not really true either. My prefered captain in a cruiser is actually a tactical officer, while I can not tank and manage power AS well as an engineer I do very well at it, the only prof I would say that actually is hurt by being in a cruiser is Sci, and in general Sci has been getting it up the butt since season 1 anyway.
So yes, you can put anyone you want in any ship you want, but each brings bonuses to specific ships, so they tend to do better in those ships. Thats what those ships are geared for.
I'm not saying you can not captain a sci ship for example with a tactical captain for example, but hes not going to be doing what he does best in there, same goes for engineer. Though to be fair the best fun Ive ever had was an engineer in a sci ship lol.
I do however think beam mechanics NEED to be reworked, they do take too much power to use, adding +5 power is not going to help that.
I have two sci captains, 1 Fed, 1 KDF... both do better in their escorts, BoP's, or Raptors than they ever did in sci ships, cruisers, or battle cruisers. I tried leveling an engineer but couldn't get past L40 due to boredom.
I actually agree that beams need to also be reworked. Their power drain is too high for their corresponding damage output. Fixing the latter will remove the need to upgrade cruiser power systems, though I still think cruisers should enjoy a LOT more passive power bonuses without BOFF skills being factored in. +10 energy instead of +5 really isn't much -- this is only a near-10% total energy boost.
What did they say about the Defiant in DSN? Something about to OP for its size.
And why the heck is a i7 a lot faster than the computers used by the NASA in 1969? They were bigger. Okay, this lacks a little bit, since 40 years are between them, but bigger doesnt mean better.
Well, we're mixing apples and oranges here. Modern CPU's have many magnitudes more components crammed into a smaller housing. They are also processing numbers and binary code, not providing propulsion to move star ships. Today's vehicles have modern reactors and engines that are still nearly the same size as their predecessors despite decades of advancement. Design usually improves efficiency and power output for propulsion systems, but miniaturization is not always included.
I don't know, personally I never had any trouble keeping my power at above 100 while I flew my Oddy with 6 beams, the Rapid Fire Missile Launcher, and a Kinetic Cutting Beam.
Skill and console setup, along with constant EPtW1 uptime. Nadion or EPS recovered from FAW quickly enough.
Didn't have trouble when I ran 8 beams either, back before I could actually get the two kinetic weapons.
Then please teach your skills to some in this thread because they feel that such a feat is near impossible for a Cruiser to accomplish because frankly these debates get circular very quickly at times
Would not science ships get even more of power bonus ( if things where changed ) due to the nature of thier design to facilitate high energy experiments, etc, etc.
What about the KDF? They dont waste power or space on a vessel with labs, gardens and a whole slew of trivial things that other races use.
Until a system of different warp cores is implemented the idea that Cruisers should have more bonus power is moot and seems more like a get-around gimick to just mindlessly buff Cruisers.
So I say Escorts deserve a buff to engines and weapons power. Take the Defiant for example, a warpcore with armor and guns mounted on it designed for combat. With no trivial power drains on it like gardens, a lounge, etc - must have extra power galore.
So until a definate why can be determined, giving Cruisers a power buff over all other vessels ingame seems unfair.
Besides if Cruisers get it, it would only be fair that battlecruisers get it too. Do the feds really want a more powerful fleet vorcha?
If cruisers are indeed "gimped", it's because of a combination of factors, not just one thing. The problem for Cryptic is how to apply the game mechanics in a consistent way and achieve balance for every variation.
Cruisers aren't gimped.
They follow fairly standard Tank design in MMOs.
The problem is that this game does not require tanks in PvE and cryptic has not even attempted to make tanking a valid or rewarding playstyle choice in their PvE design.
Cruisers have a better position in PvP as healers.
The problem is that this game does not require tanks in PvE and cryptic has not even attempted to make tanking a valid or rewarding playstyle choice in their PvE design.
Cruisers have a better position in PvP as healers.
This.
Currently my main is a Joined Trill with all of the space traits with a solid tanking skill tree and a ship layout designed to laugh at incoming fire. It works so well it makes me think it was designed to be that way. (Granted, I'm not geared for PUGs or PvP but I have yet to touch a single hull healing skill since none of the mobs have been able to get through the shields to any degree that matters.)
I'd love to use a broadside to mush the baddies, but my Tac captain in his escort takes care of my megadeathkill needs.
Try to think of the eng cruiser as the casual way to play. Look at the space scenery. Marvel at the nebula. Admire the paint job you put on it. Wonder if you should hit EPtS now or wait a few seconds. Put out a cloud of warp pee occasionally for the lulz. Be glad you're not constantly getting nerfed like some poor Sci captain.
Stop to smell the Targs. Damn it feels good to be a gangsta.
Then please teach your skills to some in this thread because they feel that such a feat is near impossible for a Cruiser to accomplish because frankly these debates get circular very quickly at times
Eh? I just had weapon power at 100, the appropriate skills at rank 6, constantly had EPtW1 up, and the Assimilated Console. My energy with 8 beams was around 100, my energy with 6 beams + KCB was around 115.
Comments
Escorts: Most of their power goes to weapons/shields/engines, its a combat ship. This means it has room for little eles on it.
Cruisers: Big heavy ships in space, there were ment as exploration/deep space ships. Most of their power is diverted to science and engineering stations, not to mention countless life support options for 500 to 2000 crew members, tons of computers, holodecks, several transporter stations.
This is not also counting that dual heavies if improperly done can drain your weapons power to nil on a CRF or CSV.
Besides, dont cruisers have +5 to all sub systems? AND you want a boost in weapons power?
Non-essential systems can be shut off during combat, but STO does not really get that detailed.
That +5 energy is just too small a bonus to actually matter in combat (a single phaser array drains 8 with 1 shot!). This is why I suggested doubling the bonus to +10, then testing it out on Tribble.
Minor quibble:
More than half of the ships in STO (notable exceptions being BoPs, T2 fed ships and Defiants) have crews at or above the multi-hundred number.
And lets not get started on the cruisers that have been turned into escorts by Cryptic to confuse things even more.
Did you take into account when they originally balanced the ships power wise that the cruiser is ment to be piloted by an engineer, a class that can get all power levels to +100 if not higher? Not to mention have a skill that lowers their weapons power usage?
The "It needs more weapons power because its bigger" is a common complaint of Tactical captains in cruisers (who really dont need more weapons power, I have a tac in a Exe who does very well damage wise).
It also should be worth noting not all cruisers have +5 to all systems, some indeed have +10 to weapons.
Again though the cruiser was balanced for the engineer, and it reflects that.
Unless the different weapon types have different efficiencies, they're delivering less energy than cannons but more than turrets. So -9.
My fears is that it would not solve anything as the firing rate would still cause a choke in weapon power with rapid contiuos firing thus giving the same issue. Extremely rapid drop off in damage.
R.I.P
I've always questioned the profession = ship mentality. Any profession can jump into an escort and deal nice DPS numbers... not as well as a Tac, but still good numbers. However, the same cannot be said any non-engineer trying to tank in a cruiser. The cruiser just seems too dependent on an engineer in the captain's chair as opposed to being a well rounded combat ship like escorts. Yes, escorts are definitely more fragile, but they seem to do better than the cruisers since STO is so DPS-oriented.
Yes, but...
Gamewise, I'm not aware that warp speed (in sector space) has different maximum values based on the ship model or class in general. There are exceptions, I believe, but it's not the rule AFAIK. Maybe we should be talking about impulse speed in relation to any synergy with weapons and engine power.
Because if this held true, cruisers ought to have a higher maximum impulse speed than any escort (even if turn rate happened to be lousy). But this isn't the case. You can make a pretty good argument that a small ship with an oversized impulse engine ought to be faster and use less power than a larger ship with the same engine.
But I digress... this is really about weapons power balance. The design principle Cryptic is following is that continuous use of multiple energy weapons has diminishing returns. Combine that with the fact that kinetic damage is more effective against hull than anything else (which I don't entirely agree with), and it's the reason why pure beam boats aren't all that efficient and many people have at least one torp launcher if not more.
The reason people want all beams on cruisers isn't because they do more damage per weapon, but because the limited turn rate means that a cruiser can bring more weapons to bear if they're using beam arrays.
If cruisers are indeed "gimped", it's because of a combination of factors, not just one thing. The problem for Cryptic is how to apply the game mechanics in a consistent way and achieve balance for every variation.
I wonder if it would be possible to construct a keybind that allowed one to fire all of their energy weapons in sequence rather than simultaneously? If you have a gaming keyboard/mouse and could write a macro you could do it for sure. That would circumvent the diminishing returns for firing multiple weapons, wouldn't it?
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
or you could put them all on row 1 of the skill tray and activate them manually
Cruisers in general have larger nacelles than escorts do, so they would have bigger warp coils than escorts do.
Having a bigger power core would only be one factor of why Cruisers would reach higher warp speeds. (I think)
But I don't think Cruisers should have higher weapon power bonuses than escorts. Most Cruisers get +5 to all subsystems rather than the +10 or +15 to weapons most escorts do and I think that's fine.
Skill and console setup, along with constant EPtW1 uptime. Nadion or EPS recovered from FAW quickly enough.
Didn't have trouble when I ran 8 beams either, back before I could actually get the two kinetic weapons.
That's not really true either. My prefered captain in a cruiser is actually a tactical officer, while I can not tank and manage power AS well as an engineer I do very well at it, the only prof I would say that actually is hurt by being in a cruiser is Sci, and in general Sci has been getting it up the butt since season 1 anyway.
So yes, you can put anyone you want in any ship you want, but each brings bonuses to specific ships, so they tend to do better in those ships. Thats what those ships are geared for.
I'm not saying you can not captain a sci ship for example with a tactical captain for example, but hes not going to be doing what he does best in there, same goes for engineer. Though to be fair the best fun Ive ever had was an engineer in a sci ship lol.
I do however think beam mechanics NEED to be reworked, they do take too much power to use, adding +5 power is not going to help that.
What did they say about the Defiant in DSN? Something about to OP for its size.
And why the heck is a i7 a lot faster than the computers used by the NASA in 1969? They were bigger. Okay, this lacks a little bit, since 40 years are between them, but bigger doesnt mean better.
I have two sci captains, 1 Fed, 1 KDF... both do better in their escorts, BoP's, or Raptors than they ever did in sci ships, cruisers, or battle cruisers. I tried leveling an engineer but couldn't get past L40 due to boredom.
I actually agree that beams need to also be reworked. Their power drain is too high for their corresponding damage output. Fixing the latter will remove the need to upgrade cruiser power systems, though I still think cruisers should enjoy a LOT more passive power bonuses without BOFF skills being factored in. +10 energy instead of +5 really isn't much -- this is only a near-10% total energy boost.
Well, we're mixing apples and oranges here. Modern CPU's have many magnitudes more components crammed into a smaller housing. They are also processing numbers and binary code, not providing propulsion to move star ships. Today's vehicles have modern reactors and engines that are still nearly the same size as their predecessors despite decades of advancement. Design usually improves efficiency and power output for propulsion systems, but miniaturization is not always included.
Then please teach your skills to some in this thread because they feel that such a feat is near impossible for a Cruiser to accomplish because frankly these debates get circular very quickly at times
R.I.P
What about the KDF? They dont waste power or space on a vessel with labs, gardens and a whole slew of trivial things that other races use.
Until a system of different warp cores is implemented the idea that Cruisers should have more bonus power is moot and seems more like a get-around gimick to just mindlessly buff Cruisers.
So I say Escorts deserve a buff to engines and weapons power. Take the Defiant for example, a warpcore with armor and guns mounted on it designed for combat. With no trivial power drains on it like gardens, a lounge, etc - must have extra power galore.
So until a definate why can be determined, giving Cruisers a power buff over all other vessels ingame seems unfair.
Besides if Cruisers get it, it would only be fair that battlecruisers get it too. Do the feds really want a more powerful fleet vorcha?
R.I.P
Cruisers aren't gimped.
They follow fairly standard Tank design in MMOs.
The problem is that this game does not require tanks in PvE and cryptic has not even attempted to make tanking a valid or rewarding playstyle choice in their PvE design.
Cruisers have a better position in PvP as healers.
This.
Currently my main is a Joined Trill with all of the space traits with a solid tanking skill tree and a ship layout designed to laugh at incoming fire. It works so well it makes me think it was designed to be that way. (Granted, I'm not geared for PUGs or PvP but I have yet to touch a single hull healing skill since none of the mobs have been able to get through the shields to any degree that matters.)
I'd love to use a broadside to mush the baddies, but my Tac captain in his escort takes care of my megadeathkill needs.
Try to think of the eng cruiser as the casual way to play. Look at the space scenery. Marvel at the nebula. Admire the paint job you put on it. Wonder if you should hit EPtS now or wait a few seconds. Put out a cloud of warp pee occasionally for the lulz. Be glad you're not constantly getting nerfed like some poor Sci captain.
Stop to smell the Targs. Damn it feels good to be a gangsta.