Should we PVPers be more open?

webdeath · November 2012

While reading the Forums over the years, and giving out advice, or even newly discovered power combinations thanks to patch changes, I've been starting to wonder...

This is PVP.. should we even be that open with each other?

I mean sure it's ok if there is an effect, ship, or power that might just be too powerful and deserves to be tweeked.

How ever, unless it's for a tournament, I've been starting to wonder if there really is any harm in being more open about how we do some of the insane things players new to PVP see us do?

Sure there are alot of players here that do post their builds, and share what they know. But some times I wonder if there are things that aren't being shared..

And does it really harm us as a community more if we do hold things back..

Sure we don't want everyone to know the stratigies we may come up with as a fleet to pummel the PVP Ques, but then again, maybe that is also hurtful because then we just get called Exploiters, Cheaters, or what not. And while they aren't exactly the worst of insults, doesn't that also drive away players who might be new to the PVP Scene, but get discouraged from such antics?

This is something I thought might make a good discussion topic. I think I'll blaim Deveoras for this one..because his topic about Counter point made me start to think about this in a whole..

virusdancer · November 2012

There have been several threads on builds - both ships and toons. There have been discussions on weapons, consoles, etc, etc, etc - and what the return on those is in PvP vs. PvE. There have even been comp/team recommendations - as far as what works well together. There have been discussions about the importance of situational awareness, the importance of target callers, and the importance of teamwork. Information on keybinds has been shared... you name it - tada, it's out there.

The issue is not a lack of information (outside of things Cryptic hasn't shared) - but rather a case that they simply have not or will not bother looking.

C'mon, you've seen these conversations...

Guy#1: Where'd you see that?
Guy#2: The dev blog.
Guy#1: There's a dev blog?

Guy#1: Where'd you see that?
Guy#2: On the wiki.
Guy#1: There's a wiki?

Guy#1: Where'd you see that?
Guy#2: On the forums.
Guy#1: There's forums?

It's just painful at times...

edit: And by the way, a big thank you to all the folks that have put so much effort into providing all of that information for us - some of the work folks have put into it is mind boggling and simply awesome. Thank you.

devorasx · November 2012

What Virus said is pretty much it.

erkyss2 · November 2012

Yes, i think PvPers should be open and if some one needs help then just help him. Why? very simple, usually in PUG matches u can fin all kinda players, from ones that dont have proper gear/skill spec for PVP, to ones that have PVP in their little finger. I know that in PVP is most important thing TEAMPLAY. Lets just say some one is new in PVP and he would like to play PVP matches, that person doesn`t stand a chance to improve without help from players that are really dedicated to PVP.
U can even take an example of me. Yesterday i have decided to ask help from any1 who is reading these forums, and now i have really amazing built for my tac. my ship became an real killer bee! And i wish to tank Pax for helping me out to built my ship.
Now i have way more fun in pvp matches, and i enjoy every single of them.

thissler · November 2012

virusdancer wrote: »

There have been several threads on builds - both ships and toons. There have been discussions on weapons, consoles, etc, etc, etc - and what the return on those is in PvP vs. PvE. There have even been comp/team recommendations - as far as what works well together. There have been discussions about the importance of situational awareness, the importance of target callers, and the importance of teamwork. Information on keybinds has been shared... you name it - tada, it's out there.

The issue is not a lack of information (outside of things Cryptic hasn't shared) - but rather a case that they simply have not or will not bother looking.

C'mon, you've seen these conversations...

Guy#1: Where'd you see that?
Guy#2: The dev blog.
Guy#1: There's a dev blog?

Guy#1: Where'd you see that?
Guy#2: On the wiki.
Guy#1: There's a wiki?

Guy#1: Where'd you see that?
Guy#2: On the forums.
Guy#1: There's forums?

It's just painful at times...

This was painfully brilliant. Your words hold iron.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAAgaD-zbotq2By_2-8qqIg/featured

Imma put this here, again. The second playlist is a good place to start for anyone that's new. Some folks just like to SEE IT. People that have been around for a bit forget that something as simple as using an aux battery before an aux powered heal seems like magic to someone that is new.

Plus there's dancing scences. And a good laugh is ALWAYS tonic for a pvp bruised soul!!

Cheers happy flying!

lasonio · November 2012

I one hundred percent agree, though for a different reasoning then those given, but i one hundred percent believe in the sharing of information because as pvpers it's in our nature to want better competition. To search for weaknesses in our builds to close up. We are perfectionist. and if we're standing at the top of the mountain, who knows we're there unless we let them know?

Now, i can't say much since i haven't played for a year and i lost my skills i think... prolly... never know, but the game has not seemed to change much since then. And i swear I am so anti PTW that i will share ever bit of my knowledge of great builds for Escort class ships just to slam and crash those players.

It's one thing to want to be the best but without competition then whats the point?

Yes there will be bad builds and bad ships out there but those are players who simply didn't want to be good ad god bless them they succeeded.

upyournacelles2 · November 2012

Helping newer players with builds and tactics is how we expand the pvp community and get more people on this side of the line to fight for the cause. Most of us are here not because we learned everything on our own over a long stretch of time, but because someone was willing to help us understand the dynamics of the game to become better players in a much shorter time. Hammels post about how glitch helped him is a perfect example. Even if you give 5 players your team build and they copy your build exactly, when you go to fight them, it still comes down to skill which is the whole idea of why we queue, to test our skill.

marctraiderz · November 2012

I never posted my build, its basically common sense Escort build with 4 dhc's, lulz.

Besides, i always changed my builds and have modular bridge officer stations to suit my needs.

There are things I dont share with the community, self tests which shows off numbers and things which i basically used for myself to conclude my suspicions about certain pieces/weaps/etc better then others. (even if most were common sense to the rest already and considered best) i just wanted to confirm all of it.

Its all in my old STO dictory with dozens of documents

Might release it someday but by then its prolly all outdated :C

See you in MWO Webbie

****ˏˍˍˍˍˍ,^.,
**c-(___,/˘
***,/***\,

dontdrunkimshoot · November 2012

if the average pvper was twice as good as he is now, pvp would be more fun. thus i reveal haxs, make help threads, and share all the information i can with everyone. most us us here, theres really not much we can learn from each other at this point, so i don't think its to crazy to reveal my hax to any of you. i did nearly keep all that 2 AtB stuff to myself though...

aquitaine985 · November 2012

I dont see any harm in openness. The LAG forums have a special section for PVP & PVE builds, they're dated so its nice to see how they've evolved with each season. Is it wrong? I dont think so. I'll never claim to be the best at my craft, but if i can put up a few builds for my fellow fleet members to take and use as remplates for their own builds then it's all good. I've seen many tweek old builds people have put up and come back later with their own as long as you renember to explain to a new player why you use something. Never give them a shopping list or a list kf guidelines, give them options and explained reasoning.

Unknown · November 2012

This content has been removed.

andoriansrus · November 2012

Hell Im still learning how to effectively PVP I can hold my own most days but its not my job to kill you its to hold you in place while "others" kill you....

and with that my Fleetmates have helped me realize that I was hurting myself using the Fleet Nebula... I love the ship I love the way it looks....but its not effective for the role I wanted to play.... so I got talked into giving the Fleet Deep Space Science Ship a try..... from that moment on I was hooked..... now Im trying to figure out what I can do with the FDSSV build and apply it to the Science Vesta (unfortunately as of this posting the FDSSV outperforms the vesta on all categories but the flight deck) I think or at least the vesta Feels like it turns better but its not faste enough for a sci captain to use the cannons unless you wanna sacrifice an ENG slot for a RCS console

you have a Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer (Science Vesta) build for PVP that works feel free to send me a mail with the build..... its always good to have multiple builds to experiment with until you find one that feels right

marctraiderz · November 2012

****ˏˍˍˍˍˍ,^.,
**c-(___,/˘
***,/***\,

I think at the end openness doesn't really make much of a difference, there is also a thing called my and your perspective, difference of opinion, facts, myths, they are all here.

If i would post a build it wouldn't necessary be a great build it might infact have dozens of flaws, usage of useless opinions etc

thunderfoot · November 2012

I merely dabble in PvP. But the things I have read and the vids I have watched have improved my enjoyment of the game. I'd like to thank all those known and unknown who've done so. Your intentions are good and I, for one, appreciate it when someone does these things. You wanted to make others better players so you in turn can have better opponents thus increasing your enjoyment of the game. A laudable goal I can support whole heartedly.

But no matter how eloquently you state your case or how brilliant your vids are, not everyone will read your words or watch the how-tos. Because many people do not realize just how badly they are cheating themselves of of gigabytes of good information. It is unfortunate this is true. However I promise to keep watching with great interest the things you share and applying them to my own play. I suspect there are many more than you think who do the same but never publicly acknowledge doing so. It would be easy to get discouraged at this. Don't you believe for one minute all of us ignore or discount the advice and info you so generously hand out.

snoge00f · November 2012

Openness is a great thing. All of those people in my siglink helped build PvP and make it an enjoyable mode to play.

Look at the other big games, they also have people doing detailed breakdowns that help people. I'm certain that if people didn't learn how to play the game, they would quit at some point from the frustration.

We gain nothing from holding onto our gameplay secrets.

rjam0 · November 2012

webdeath wrote: »

This is PVP.. should we even be that open with each other?

Hehe, I can honestly say that I've lied on the odd occasion to people who have asked a little too much about my builds. Not because I was purposely being an TRIBBLE, but because I think there is a buttload of information on this forum, and even more for the player to think about themselves.

I got heaps of help from Tick but I also did a lot of it on my own. If I had to figure it out, so should they!

suraknar · November 2012

I do not PvP anymore in this game (I think it is really badly made) but being open is always good and can enhance the game experience.

diogene0 · November 2012

I use SNB doffs, danubes, tractor beams, a full maco set for the heavy graviton beam, I have VM3/TBR3 modular boffs and a graviton pulse console/tholian web (depending on my mood). I enjoy my "you won't play till i decide you can or till you run away" build. I like when I get insulted, it means people thrown stuff at their screen and that i've been a decent sci in this specific match.

andoriansrus · November 2012

diogene0 wrote: »

I use SNB doffs, danubes, tractor beams, a full maco set for the heavy graviton beam, I have VM3/TBR3 modular boffs and a graviton pulse console/tholian web (depending on my mood). I enjoy my "you won't play till i decide you can or till you run away" build. I like when I get insulted, it means people thrown stuff at their screen and that i've been a decent sci in this specific match.

I know how you feel my vesta is set up to hold you in place while I waltz over and pummel you or I hold you in place strip your buffs and let my team mates kill you... my build is not about being the star its about working with the synergy of my team.....

snoge00f · November 2012

diogene0 wrote: »

I use SNB doffs, danubes, tractor beams, a full maco set for the heavy graviton beam, I have VM3/TBR3 modular boffs and a graviton pulse console/tholian web (depending on my mood). I enjoy my "you won't play till i decide you can or till you run away" build. I like when I get insulted, it means people thrown stuff at their screen and that i've been a decent sci in this specific match.

Best hope you don't get matched up against TRH or other OPvPers.

treffell · November 2012

Fact - openess - a trick, like vikings calling iceland icey and greenland greeny

Fact - opensess- does two things for the would be opne person, looks them appear nice, helpful

Fact - openess - reallyt they give knowmn builds with TRIBBLE advice witrh a little clcik - if you have a popular "use this" and everyone uses it, and you know it......

Fact - openess - about as open as manipulation

these are the facts

irrefutable

diogene0 · November 2012

snoge00f wrote: »

Best hope you don't get matched up against TRH or other OPvPers.

Happens, but since i'm always puggint I don't expect anything against premade teams. A premade vs a pug is like i don't know... Europeans vs native americans in 1500?

I often get decent scores in such matches but they run too many copies of science team to my taste, and of course they know something pugs ignore called teamplay and support! And most of the times, I quickly become the primary target. Guess they don't like danubes.

stevehale · November 2012

I think that if we really enjoy a challenge and want to have more fun, then we owe it to ourselves to be more open and helpful. It won't reach all people but any who benefit can benefit others.

upyournacelles2 · November 2012

diogene0 wrote: »

but they run too many copies of science team to my taste

cant say I've ever heard someone make this statement before

broken1981 · November 2012

diogene0 wrote: »

I use SNB doffs, danubes, tractor beams, a full maco set for the heavy graviton beam, I have VM3/TBR3 modular boffs and a graviton pulse console/tholian web (depending on my mood). I enjoy my "you won't play till i decide you can or till you run away" build. I like when I get insulted, it means people thrown stuff at their screen and that i've been a decent sci in this specific match.

whats your name in game? i got 3 sub nuke doffs of my own. and if you want to play the lame game then ill make it so u dont have any buffs either. and trust me my ship is probly geared way better then yours.

just look at my pic, you see what happened over ellis island? thats nothing compaired to the hurrican my bug can wip up and do to you.

diogene0 · November 2012

broken1981 wrote: »

whats your name in game? i got 3 sub nuke doffs of my own. and if you want to play the lame game then ill make it so u dont have any buffs either. and trust me my ship is probly geared way better then yours.

just look at my pic, you see what happened over ellis island? thats nothing compaired to the hurrican my bug can wip up and do to you.

Not here to help others fixing their broken egos. I'm having fun and that's enough, if you like to think you're better than be, that's fine, but trust me I don't care. I was just sharing a significant part of my build to make fun of people holding it like a little secret no one cares about. Oh, there's one element I didn't share but if you meet me in game you'll see which one it is. I think it's a bit broken for pvp (it's been designed for pve only) but it's also extrelemy interesting to see clueless players facing an unusual effect on their ship! I imagine their "wtf" faces and it makes my day.

I know some broken mechanics too and even if I use them i'm not trying to impress anyone. It's just extremely funny to leave escorts unable to play because their players are ofthen the most aggressive. Even if many of them are mature enough to accept that kind of gameplay, I have yet to be insulted by someone playing a support role - a role I enjoy playing myself. On the other hand, harrassing an escort can very well end up with a good load of insults. That's just my very own experience though.

Considering that I'm playing a support role and have no ego to defend in game or on the forums, I will decline. I would need a couple of teammates to take another good player down, because dps isn't my job.

Sometimes my team wins a match, sometimes we loose, and I need nothing more.

andoriansrus · November 2012

look this is not about this build or that build its about should we as a PVP community be more open with newer PVP players with how we accomplish things... I for one support this idea... if not for the few PVP people I have run into in my years of play I would have learned nothing and just been a big ship painted with red and white concentric circles all over it (I still feel like that sometimes)

in just the past 6 months I have learned so much about PVP and the mechanics that make it work for me that my game has improved to at least an 80% improvement over what I was doing 6months to a year ago.... Im not perfect and Im still learning but I also knowingly hurt myself in PVP trying to utilize several different abilities I should prolly not be trying to use... but you know what in the end I learn valuable lessons that I can apply to make my ship build and captain skill build better and eventually focus to the point that I am not that ship with the red and white concentric circles painted all over it... (unfortunately being a science captain in an OBVIOUS Science ship... I usually still become the main focus pretty fast) in PVP I usually give as good as I get... I may not get the huge damage numbers or healing numbers Im not the star on my team Im a sci captain and that means Im a supporting team mate but at least my presence was felt by the opposing team... we all had fun and usually queue up to do it again

broken1981 · November 2012

diogene0 wrote: »

Not here to help others fixing their broken egos.

i think you missed my point as well as makingt your point invalid. you do pvp for fun right? so do do i. thoes sub nuk doffs dont add to the game like other doffs do. they gicve any player a free sci skill to take off buffs. and the point you missed was 6you like to be a support player. how can you play that role if i have 3 doffs of my own? you cant dps, i can. even with no buffs i put out over 2k. and trust me im used to being in ques with pugs that dont send heals.

skurf · November 2012

diogene0 wrote: »

Not here to help others fixing their broken egos. I'm having fun and that's enough, if you like to think you're better than be, that's fine, but trust me I don't care. I was just sharing a significant part of my build to make fun of people holding it like a little secret no one cares about. Oh, there's one element I didn't share but if you meet me in game you'll see which one it is. I think it's a bit broken for pvp (it's been designed for pve only) but it's also extrelemy interesting to see clueless players facing an unusual effect on their ship! I imagine their "wtf" faces and it makes my day.

I know some broken mechanics too and even if I use them i'm not trying to impress anyone. It's just extremely funny to leave escorts unable to play because their players are ofthen the most aggressive. Even if many of them are mature enough to accept that kind of gameplay, I have yet to be insulted by someone playing a support role - a role I enjoy playing myself. On the other hand, harrassing an escort can very well end up with a good load of insults. That's just my very own experience though.

Considering that I'm playing a support role and have no ego to defend in game or on the forums, I will decline. I would need a couple of teammates to take another good player down, because dps isn't my job.

Sometimes my team wins a match, sometimes we loose, and I need nothing more.

I don't think you get it. Your build is no secret. Anyone can do it and every experienced player knows about exploitative builds such as the one you posted. But most experienced pvp'ers choose not to use them. They choose not to use them because it ruins the fun for everyone else in the match. Apparently you have no respect for your fellow pvp'ers and only care about satisfying your own desires. The words "fair play" fall on deaf ears as proven by your posts.

I had a friend a week ago that I have PvP'ed with a lot tell me about his new siphon drone power drain build. I told him I would not be teaming with him any more if he used siphon drones as I feel they give an unfair advantage to the user. I know others we team with feel the same way about certain abilities/consoles/exploits and may have told him the same thing. Anyway, a couple days later he told me he had switched to frigates instead of siphon drones. While it's not fun to have such builds used against you, it's also not fun to be ostracized by the community or your friends for using such builds.

Should we PVPers be more open?

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