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The difference between pay2W and play2Win
wolfpack12c
Member Posts: 242 Arc User
I'm so tired of getting mail saying I'm a P2W troll. So I just to throw this out there for the newer PVPers. The older ones know the difference. I fly a well's yes a lock box ship but remove all the cheep stuff. I do not fly a wells with the bubble and TCD mines with DPB and tractor. This is a big difference. I fly a fleet defiant. I do not fly a fleet defient with all rapid fire and 3 sub nuke doffs and AMS. I have a kling in a BoP. I do not have a BoP with all Polaron, energy siphon, ace, and prismonic leach. There is a difference between the 2 if someone is a better player then please don't start spamming them in game. If you don't like something or a wondering how he did that ask. That's all you need to do. Nothing more nothing less. The pvp community is not all players that use cheap tactics that kill whole teams. I've never seen Sad Panda, TSI(lately), Critz, or TGH spam tractor pets, AMS/SS, run whole teams of drain builds, or run 5 man alpha strikes on the same target. That is the pvp community. (Srry if I forgot you) honestly I want some input from other PVPers.
-"There is no such thing as an I win button!" "Um, Sir. Whats this button that says (I win) for then?"
Post edited by wolfpack12c on
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[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
If you have 5 tacs (probably not the best idea ever) and can coordinate it, that seems like a good strategy to me. Focus firing is part of any good team tactic, and if you can coordinate alpha strikes on that focused target, all the better.
@DevolvedOne
So I read the post.
I read the title again.
I read the post again.
I'm having difficulty putting the two together - even the title itself, doesn't really jibe.
There's a difference between Pay2Win and not Pay2Win.
There's a difference between Play2Win and not Play2Win.
Pay2Win is a form of Play2Win... so it's not really a case of it being different. There's Play2Win without Pay2Win, though.
So I could see a post discussing the differences between Pay2Win Play2Win and not Pay2Win Play2Win...
...but in the end, that would really just be the standard P2W discussion.
I could also see a discussion wishing that players would not claim somebody was using Pay2Win when in the end it was simply a case that they were Play2Win and simply had a clue as to what they were doing... but given the Pay2Win mentioned, it's obviously not that discussion.
So yeah, I read the title.
So yeah, I read the post.
I don't get what you're trying to say... with what Shim said, is it a case of trying to draw a line of what is acceptable P2W and what is not? To the purists, anything bought for real money that gives an advantage (whether you were the person that paid the cash or some other currency, it did not enter the game without a cash transaction) is going to be P2W. Hell, using the EPM from the Oberth is P2W (but I like my wee EPM).
Are there things far worse? Definitely. But it is what it is... a line crossed.
All in all, though - I think the discussion is rather moot in STO. STO's not P2W.
Say what?
Cash transactions are such a part of STO at the core now - it's not a case of paying to win, paying for an advantage, or anything like that... it's a case that the paid stuff is the baseline. You can see it in the responses from devs questioning how folks are calling things OP. They're not OP. That's the new baseline.
STO isn't P2W... it's a new form of P2P... it's not a sub model, but you've got to pay to play.
If this is the case, is it then fair game to use every thinkable console, EVERY single one i mind you, and simply accept what STO has become? Or is there some self imposed rule or unwritten rule among folks, under the pretense of game morailty which prevents its use?
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
These agreements have been tried multiple times, and they always crash and burn eventually. In a perfect world we could police ourselves and not use anything paid for. We'll never agree with where to draw the line. In the past, it was abilities that were broken that the the majority of the community agreed not to use. People would rage when they saw a team using these abilities due to them breaking this "agreement". In the end, teams would start using them to get back or stay "even" with the other team using them. They would then run into a different team and use the abilities and push this next team closer to using them as well to keep up.
Today however, it not abilities but instead paid for items. One person says ban it all, ships and consoles. The next person says this console power is fine, but this one isn't. The next person says no consoles, but ships are ok. Now enters doffs into the conversation. Snb doffs aren't fair cries one person at the other team while probably not realizing his teammate is running them too. The dynamic of what to include and what not to include is way to complex short of no c-store/lobi, or allow it all. May as well just allow it all since you'll never get everyone to agree to not run their cheese giving them a size able advantage. I hate p2w TRIBBLE as much as the next guy, but cryptic will never give us a p2w free pvp mode which is the only way we'll see fun matches without the cheese fest they have made their product into
They've talked about how well they did with S6 - allowing them to increase staff, etc, etc.
They've talked about how well S7 looks to do - allowing them to keep that staff, etc, etc.
Yeah, it's clear the direction that the game is going to continue to go - the direction which is making STO "successful" - and thus what that means for PvP...
People are more than happy to spend oodles and oodles of money. It's working for Cryptic/PWE in this case - it's working for a large percentage of the playerbase - it's just not working for PvP...
...but it's obvious where that stands.
Lol, maybe if they could figure a way to charge people for P2Wfree matches... they might look at that, eh?
Oki. If so, how would the pvp community here feel and react if every single pvp fleet, included mine, started to use every single so-called cheese console and ship and godness knows what, without scruples, under the pretense of whats been discussed so far in this thread?
Because as far as i can understand nothing seems to be p2w anymore and all is fair game, or what?
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
I guess you missed this discussion. About a year ago (while you were gone), TSI got tired of being accused of cheating even though they were playing clean. People complained no matter what they did. They tried policing their builds to aviod OP gear/abilities. People complained. They posted their builds so others could start on a "level playing field". People compained. Finally they just took the gloves off, and people really started complaining.
This happens just about any time a player or group of players tries to enact some sort of gentlemen's agreement regarding OP/P2W gear/abilities. However, there are still those that will respect you more for not exploiting broken or OP abilities/gear. Others will say you are just gimping yourself. Some will disagree with your decision simply because you made it and they want to disagree (ahem... Sprinkles... ahem). It's really a personal decision and the opinions of others only matter as much as you want them to.
Don't think there's enough players to support that anymore. Even if there were, not sure they'd pay to NOT use the other toys they have bought.
I'm suggesting that Cryptic/PWE has gone with a form of paradigm shift.
Standard Baseline (X is the baseline):
X (free)
> Y (P2W)
New Baseline (Y is the baseline):
X (free)
> Y (P2W)
> Z (putting Cryptic employees' kids through college)
P2W has so saturated the playerbase in STO, that it is no longer a case of paying for an advantage. It's gone from Pay2Win to Pay2Play. It's the norm.
It's kind of evident in seeing folks complain about Z while being fine with Y. Anything outside of X is P2W, but Y's become so common - the complaints are about Z. It's not really a case of complaining about P2W...it's complaining about somebody that spent more. Perhaps PM2W, eh? Paid More To Win...?
Pretty good assessment of the situation, IMO.
I'm curious if anything will come of that pseudo gear matching thing (can't remember whether that was just player or unofficial or perhaps officially vague)...
Even if it were split into two, eh? Couldn't be free and not free - but if there was some "X" Zen cap for the regular tier and then an unlimited tier for those over that "X" cap...perhaps.
Course, it might get a little tricky in figuring the Zen cost of the ship. Would you "apply" the full cost of the ship if somebody were using a console from that ship on another ship? Would they do the coding so that if you were using that console on the original ship that you were not double "charged" so to speak in figuring out which tier you fought in?
There are many different things they could do - the question that it all comes down to in the end though, is there any money in it? Are there the folks that want their full bag of tricks for PvE but want a "cleaner" PvP experience?
Is there may doubt that this is where we'll be eventually be? It only gets worse and worse as time goes on. As new players come into pvp with the p2w consoles they've bought along the way, they won't even be able to grasp your pov since they've never experienced the game pre-FTP.
This.
It's their normal.
It's what they see.
It's what they expect.
2 years and I may have the space game I'm looking for:
http://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/
The way the Dev raised the funds for it was the ultimate P2W in my book, people find a Dev they trust and invest on the front end.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
I WISH I could've gotten a corvette..... their paper/rock/scissor design methods (assuming they stick to it of course) sounds like the best way to offer flashy ships without it being horribly unbalanced *cough, cough, bug, cough*.
Edit: Thinking it over.... they COULD offer PvP only ships, weapons, consoles, etc, that could only be used in special PvP matches agains other PvP only equipped players. Heck, make it all cost Dil and it might support itself, none of it needs new tech.
Honestly, the "no p2w" stigma needs to go away. Some ppl got comfortable blaming their defeat on p2w. This is "obsolete" in this state of game. Yea, open your wallet + experience = win. But it's the truth.
I got hammered as a tac kdf in the temporal destroyer by a gang of Feds with subnuc and vm. Yea, for some is hax, but really, it's a very legit way if flying a sci. It sucks for me, but I would do it I would fly a sci also.
P.S. la familia fleet, you are still a great fleet even if not at the level of pandas or crits or Turks yet. I wish you get there and get better than them!. But I always enjoy dueling with you mofos! Qapla' batlh je (Success and honor)!
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...