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Patience, Daniel-san!!
darramouss1
Member Posts: 1,811 Arc User
So many upset people because if dilithium in season 7. People saying that the game is now a grind, that starbases have stopped and that STO has become a second job.
My question is what's the rush?!
It seems that people are in a mad rush to do everything NOW! My question is why? Why not take time to look around, see the galaxy, explore somewhere you haven't before?
Do people have a set date past which they can't play, necessitating the need to unlock everything at breakneck speeds? Are people rushing to get things before other players? Must immediate gratification be the ultimate goal?
Firstly, if you set date past which you can't play past (terminal disease, moving to the South Pole, leaving Earth) then I can understand your rush and sympathise.
Secondly, if you're trying to beat other players then surely you must understand that they're in the same boat as you're in. In that case you're never going to beat someone who can spend more time or more money on the game. Same as before season 7.
When I was growing up I had to earn things by working and saving for what I wanted. If there were delays, such as me having other expenses or the price of what I wanted going up, I took it on the chin. My parents were proud of that mentality as they told me it displayed maturity.
Out of all the games I've ever seen where you needed to earn and unlock stuff, I've found STO to be the most generous. Regardless of whether the game was PC, Xbox or playstation, STO seemed to give stuff up faster. Now it seems that STO is following suit from all the other games I've seen.
How about instead of being angry at this change we show maturity and be thankful that we had it so good for so long? Remember, the new players coming after us won't ever have the chance to accumulate like we've had.
My question is what's the rush?!
It seems that people are in a mad rush to do everything NOW! My question is why? Why not take time to look around, see the galaxy, explore somewhere you haven't before?
Do people have a set date past which they can't play, necessitating the need to unlock everything at breakneck speeds? Are people rushing to get things before other players? Must immediate gratification be the ultimate goal?
Firstly, if you set date past which you can't play past (terminal disease, moving to the South Pole, leaving Earth) then I can understand your rush and sympathise.
Secondly, if you're trying to beat other players then surely you must understand that they're in the same boat as you're in. In that case you're never going to beat someone who can spend more time or more money on the game. Same as before season 7.
When I was growing up I had to earn things by working and saving for what I wanted. If there were delays, such as me having other expenses or the price of what I wanted going up, I took it on the chin. My parents were proud of that mentality as they told me it displayed maturity.
Out of all the games I've ever seen where you needed to earn and unlock stuff, I've found STO to be the most generous. Regardless of whether the game was PC, Xbox or playstation, STO seemed to give stuff up faster. Now it seems that STO is following suit from all the other games I've seen.
How about instead of being angry at this change we show maturity and be thankful that we had it so good for so long? Remember, the new players coming after us won't ever have the chance to accumulate like we've had.
Post edited by darramouss1 on
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I'm glad you're not a blind hater but don't be a blind supporter either. Frustration is a part of their MMO buisness and some may not understand that they are psychologically manipulated by game designers and have very aggressive reactions. Season 7 doesn't reward hardcore players, it rewards patience and not efforts, no matter what, even if you do many efforts.
That's frustrating for some people because they're used to hear that if they work hard enough to get stuff they'll get it. No doubt it's just bad ethics, because it prompts you to slave over crappy stuff for more stupid, useless and ridiculous stuff, even and especially IRL, but that's what people are used to, and that's not how season 7 works.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
Personally I don't want to have everything now; but I do want to be making progress now. I want to play and have that time count toward these uber-goals which promise all kinds of great things. But we don't get that. Our progress is metered through a time gate that says we can only do this much and then we're done. I have hundreds of surplus marks which are quite literally useless, because everything I might do with them is grinding along at a glacial pace.
Basically the frustration with the time aspect is that everybody is being artificially limited to a snail's pace for no good reason. I have resources, let me use them!
And if they are? Who cares? If I have more disposable time than Joe Smith who only plays half an hour each Monday after dinner, what possible basis is there for slowing me down to his pace?
Except the parallel here is that you're trying to save for something and you're only allowed to put in 1$ per week no matter how much work you actually did and how much money you actually earned. Shouldn't the kid mowing everybody's lawns for 30$ a week get to his goal faster than the kid who can only contribute loose change that he picked up off the sidewalk???
Which is a disincentive to start new characters. Why would I want to start over with nothing, when I know that I am being deliberately and arbitrarily held back.
My point exactly! The new players will have no very rare X or XI gear like we had. We did a few normal STFs and picked up a few rare salvages and even common borg Tech. Now with the way STFs are and the rep system it will take awhile. Unless the new players join a good fleet or grind EC to pay for VR X or XI gear off the exchange they will have no options other than wait their time.
And the way normal stfs are now they will need Very Rare X or XI to do them. I watched players die over and over the last few days, which before season 7 happened rarely.
Artificial time-gates that have the potential to prevent me from doing what I want when I want do bother me.
What's next, they up the level cap to 60 but you must run a 'training' project at each level that takes a week so we don't hit the cap to fast? That is just flat out stupid.
On the other hand, if they wanted to help out casual players or dissuade players from grinding something out as fast as the can their are better ways. Like daily/weekly wrapper missions that provide a higher reward per time than the general method does.
I am mk12 with optionals ground
Now I have to be gated thru the process
Again
And PAY for the pain
Why should I not be angry or feel resentment
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
That's not my intent. If people perceive it that way then I apologise.
But Joe Smith has been slowed down as well. The only way he can achieve your pace is by playing the same or more hours than you.
Why? Because until now you've had it better than any other game I can think of. STO has been far more generous than other games by giving you more goodies faster than you probably should have been given them.
Why can't you appreciate that fact and be happy that you had such a good run? Why maintain a sense of entitlement? Why should you have more than other MMO players?
For argument's sake, let's assume that season 7 actually benefits the game and leads to a stronger STO future. Would you still prefer season 7 to be dialled back just so you can gather more dilithium?
You can pick up purple XI weapons on the exchange for fairly cheap. Just buy a less used weapon energy type. You can also do missions for blue Mk XI weapons for no cost, and they're about 97% as effective. This is what the OP is talking about with the sense of entitlement. You don't need a full set of Mk XII antiproton weapons within 2 days of hitting 50, the difference isn't even that significant,
Normal STFs are still a complete joke that can be easily completed in green Mk X gear. I have no idea where this ridiculous exaggeration started.
Not a whole lot has been added, in my opinion, but it is all gated so well that I do not foresee a time when any one of my toons is actually capped out.
I'm still playing catch up from season 6 and Season 8 will compound this.
Not a sense of entitlement, but making someone pay extra for something that was basically free is the problem.
So now they have to hit the daily grind doing the "Tour" to earn EC for the weapons and gear. You can't even buy XII antiproton stuff on the exchange - So it is either join a fleet or suffer through the reputation system if you want it.
If you think for one minute NEW people can do stfs in green X gear you are kidding yourself. You might can do them if you have the right setup AND already have played the game awhile. NEW <--- you know the ones who have never played before.
I have a Fleet patrol escort - XII Maco set - I have NEVER even came close to dying in a normal STF and very rarely in an Elite STF. With the install of season 7 I have seen way more hull damage on my ship. I haven't changed anything and from what I can tell they didn't nerf anything on my toon or gear. So they had to up the damage on the stfs (might have been a minor change they made somewhere that impacted the stfs) The tons of other players on here are over exaggerating too? Not like i would waste my time coming on here if it wasn't a problem.
if you enjoy wasting your dilthium and time grinding out all this stuff go right ahead. I am going to do the tiers to get my passive bonus and save my dilthium for other things.
The simple fact is a MK X borg deflector cost 450 Omega marks 14000 dilithium 10000 XP and 30 communication arrays which use to cost me 5 EDCs..... yeah this system is really fair .......and to TOP it OFF I have to wait 40 hours to get the gear. And that is NOT an exaggeration that is pure fact. That is for ONE (1) piece of gear!!!
"They want us to pay HOW much for ONE piece of equipment?" group.
I thought I remember JamJams on Tribble chat saying that the rep system is a faster way to get the gear?
14 toons? God on a pogo stick riding a dinosaur. How do you manage all of them in 24 hours?
Ain't Nobody Got Time for That
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Why? Because until now you've had it better than any other game I can think of. STO has been far more generous than other games by giving you more goodies faster than you probably should have been given them.
Why can't you appreciate that fact and be happy that you had such a good run? Why maintain a sense of entitlement? Why should you have more than other MMO players?
For argument's sake, let's assume that season 7 actually benefits the game and leads to a stronger STO future. Would you still prefer season 7 to be dialled back just so you can gather more dilithium?
Given ?
Good run ?
Do you wear mk 12 elite armor with all the accolades ?
I earned this almost everyone wearing it earned it
Apparently you have not or you would not make such
A far fetched statement.
I earned a Jedi first run I'n SWG so I know all about hard long
Grinding. The grind here getting all 4 mk12 sets with all the optionals
Was pretty darned close to it
The Jedi grind was solo and was longer this required a team
And was much harder.
The tier system will be long and boring and no
Challenge, the only positive thing about it is the accolade
Armor at the end cannot be bought it will have to be
Earned
Season 7 wasn't ready and still isn't we are play testing it
For STO
I really don't think STO cares about us current players anyway
There banking on new players IMO that won't know any better
Swg did the same thing (3) times
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Now we have a situation were we can obtain the resources easily, but can't spend them fast enough. I disagree that we don't have recognition of effort or time put in though. But again, people feel they can not progress. Its the other extreme.
I wonder what the feeling would be if Cryptic were to reduce the rewards (marks) so that people did not find themselves with such an ample supply (I too have literally hundreds now) that they can not use immediately. Would that help to adjust people's game experiences? if they couldn't obtain the materials as readily as they can now, would that change their view of having their progress hampered? I think it would. I also think that it would lead to calls for more resources to be dropped, but overall, people would have to actively play in order to meet the resource burden - on time. By the time it took for the project to complete, the person would literally only just have enough resources to place into the system again.
In some ways, I think this is what cryptic were aiming for, but they've got the numbers all wrong. There is nothing inherently wrong with artificial timegates on content when the purpose is to buy time for developers in the MMO space to create new content. Every online game does it. The challenge is to to provide a means to keep your players from
a) realising it
b) being frustrated by it
c) feeling like they can not progress
d) feeling like the rewards are not compelling
Cryptic has failed on all four.
I would like to see some readjustment of the resource numbers frankly. I can't believe I'm saying that to be honest.
Or by paying more money .
I have highlighted something that you seem to come back to in your arguments .
I'd like to know how do you figure that "we've had it better" , on multiple fonts ?
- How do you figure I payed less then if I had played "another game" ?
- How do you figure I played less then if I had played "another game" ?
(I have a ton of toons and 2 accounts -- it's only "easy" if you have one single toon . The collective "sport" before F2P was "no new end game so roll another toon")
- How do you figure that other games matter at all when they don't have STO's exact financial model , nor the same offerings to a player .
Other gaming companies have other financial models (other things they charge for) , so to me that's comparing apples/oranges . Thus it is irrelevant to my STO experience , and yours as well I might add .
- And for arguments sake , even if we've had it "better" , WHY must we now fold , slow down and "repent" ?
Why the killjoy ?
(I'm asking Cryptic that too btw)
I do .
Sadly that is exactly how I feel since S.5 .
The best run this game had was it's first 13 months . The Devs were energized , motivated , creative , proud , and it showed . Oh boy did it show .
I look at those days and I look at today and I get a cramp in my belly .
Can't speak 4 anyone else , but I'm a firm believer of "if you don't want me to have it , don't give it to me and then take it away" .
I don't like that in RL , but sometimes I have to take it .
I don't have to take it in my gaming time tho . I come here 2 have fun , not to feel like I'm being toyed with by irresponsible shortsighted and lazy game makers .
Apples and oranges , said it before .
STO has no more relevance to WOWZERS then the latter has on the former .
If Cryptic is that hard up to make fundemental changes , they are welcome to develop and present the next STO MMO , "STO 2 : insert flashy title here" .
But that'd take work ... , and Cryptic does not like to do that very much .
Look at S.7 :
Almost half of it is repackaged content / awards .
That was the argument ppl floated at S.6 , and at S.5 / F2P .
It had merit in S.5 .
It sort of had merit at S.6 .
In S.7 one has to look reality in the eye and ask if it's just raining or is Cryptic just "watering" on our heads out of habit and/or arrogance and/or incompetence .
Lucky r those who got an umbrella ... , and patience to walk in / ignore the "rain" .
I used to play several hours every day. Do some STF's, a few fleet actions for marks, contribute a bit to the starbase, etc. I still do this, in fact, but spend about half as much time doing so, because now the rewards I have grown accustomed to are far away, locked behind an arbitrary two month wait, minimum.
However, to make use of the reputation system I don't even have to do that much. The costs involved for the XP projects are trivial. I can easily dip into my vast pile of resources to fill them on demand. Unfortunately I can only do this once every two days.
The pace at which I can advance is no longer based upon my efforts or skill level, but artificially limited by increments that are only available after a minimum two day wait. In other words, I have the resources for a meteoric rise to the top, but am now forced to slowboat it at the same pace as someone who can only afford to play a couple hours every other day. I've been forced to advance at the same rate as... a filthy casual gamer.
Allow me to demonstrate the ridiculousness of your argument by applying to something else.
Why? Because until now you've had it better than any other job I've ever had. Your employer has been far more generous than other companies by paying you more money than industry average.
Why can't you appreciate that fact and be happy that you had such a good run? Why maintain a sense of entitlement? Why should you have more than other people in your line of employ?
The answer: People don't like it when they're comfortable $78,000 job gets cut to minimum wage because management thinks you'll be happier getting paid as much as intern. Especially if they're a more productive employee than most of their peers.
I can easily rebut that with...
For argument's sake, let's assume that season 7 actually cuts the player base in half, significantly reducing PWE's confidence in the game. Would you still prefer season 7 to proceed on its current track, just so you can enjoy time gated content?
But to actually answer your question: No. If it led to a "stronger" STO future, then I'd certainly be in favor of it. But at this juncture, such an assumption appears completely wrong. When I catch someone stealing my candy bar I don't think happy thoughts and assume they'll hand me a benjamin for letting them get away with it. I smack their hand and draw attention to the thief so everyone knows to look out for him.
Similarly, when developers make a design decision that the players end up not liking or, in this case, hating with a vengeance, the proper response is not to take it on the chin, but speak up about it. I play STO to have fun; presumably that's why everyone else does too. If the game changes in a way that decreases the amount of fun I'm having with it, I will certainly make Cryptic aware of it.
If the players aren't having fun with their game then they'll play it less, pay for less content, and Cryptic will make less money. Then nobody wins.
Let's see.
First, people have been 'angry' about the way the starbases have been set up for quite some time. The system put in place in S7 seems to be everything people don't like, now wrapped around all the new content.
Second, people complained about not being able to get Mark XII STF gear due to it never dropping. People spent months trying and getting one or two pieces. Instead of adjusting drop rates, Cryptic's answer is to take away the stockpile you have built up and lock it up behind a crate you can't open, and then stick time gated blocks in your way.
So instead of being able to get the gear you want and recognizing the time you've put in grinding, you are treated as if you are just starting to play. This is in no way a reward.
Third, some people pay monthly for this game, instead of lifer for F2P. So yes, the idea of time-gated content is probably extremely off-putting to them. Why should someone be penalized for supporting the game? Because looking at the timelines people have put together that's what it is.
I'm not sure if you've taken leave of your senses or are trolling, but a lot of people who are upset have been playing since launch. With the exception of the Romulan Sector, which will not take very long to get to know, there is absolutely nothing in the game I have not done ad nauseam, both Fed and KDF. Most people were excited about S7 due to the promise of lots of new content and the idea that they could finally get the gear they wanted.
How about if you're not paying their sub, you stop trying to tell others how to play the game? If Goofy McRich wants to blow $500 in the C-Store, more power to him, he's supporting the game. Building up a method that gives this sort of person no reason to do so is a net financial loss.
That's not even a remotely accurate comparison. In order to make it accurate, you would have to be told that how hard you work is irrelevant, and that anyone who bothers to put in the minimum effort will eventually get there.
This isn't about 'other expenses'. This is about the company deliberately slowing down the rate at which you progress to encourage you to spend money, and lying about what the stated goal is.
Here's the thing. STO does not have good graphics. It does not have a compelling (or even coherent) storyline. It does not have the best PVP, it does not offer a real crafting system, it's player driven economy is bipolar, and it's cash-store is the most money-grubbing of any of the rest I've seen. The big draw to STO so far has been the access to neat gear, and NOT having the so-called 'elite gaming overlords' have stuff you'll never see.
Until STF's added Omega Gear. But hang on, S7 is supposed to correct that. Except it doesn't. It just ensures that by the time you make the stupidly long grind, they'll have had the time to put out something else. It removes all incentive.
I'm not sure you understand the words 'maturity' or 'thankful'. I'm not very thankful that i grinded a ton of STF's and the EDC I got from them is in a box I can't access. I'm not thankful that I have to work a starbase like system designed to drain my credits and waste my time for nothing I don't already have .
I bet you new players without any STF Gear are really unhappy about the system that makes them not worth bringing into a fight.
You are talking to the MTV Generation. Delayed gratification is a dirty word. Attention spans don't exceed three seconds. It's all about me.
STO Forum member since before February 2010.
STO Academy's excellent skill planner here: Link
I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
It took 7 weeks for the Jemmie captain to get mk XII M.A.C.O gear. It took 2 days for the Orb Weaver to get his set. How is it right for a better combatant to take longer to get the best stuff? Under the old system, my toons aside, we all know that it was possible for superior players to take longer to get the best end game gear than average or low skilled players.
How can people say that that is an equitable system? How can people not see that earning the gear is fairer than a random drop, a random drop that may never come for some?
This new system rewards the best end game gear to those who earn it, not luck upon it. People are more dedicated and more skilled will be able to access their gear first. Why is that unfair? Shouldn't the most dedicated and skilled be rewarded first?
Yes, I understand that losing a system that had the potential to give you awesome drops fast in favour of a system that has the potential to give you items at a slower rate may seem tough. For the players who never got their sets, this has the potential to be fairer. Still, I think that we need to look beyond our own viewpoints and consider the long term benefits to the game.
Oh, and for the record I do NOT consider myself a superior player. I consider myself to be an average player and I feel that players with more skill who dedicate more time to the game deserve to get the best gear before me.
Dar, get this little fact. Subcribers are LEAVING. they either cancel or let it expire. A few of them been hear since day one. S7 is the cause and as such cryptic is losing money. That is a serious problem. WHAT PART OF THAT DON'T YOU GET. WE are over grind and get little in return. Listen to the latest eliteforce podcast on this issue. http://eliteforcepodcast.com/category/audio-archive/
Face while they are some good things in s7 they are COMPLETELY over shadowed by the many problems.
First of all, damage output should not be relevant to how quickly you earn rewards because some ships and builds are not aimed at producing damage output.
But secondly, I am sympathetic to the problem of players stuck in an eternal grind mode trying to get the item they wanted. And I even have a solution! That solution is not season 7. The solution is to put the Mark 12 set items in old STF store, but they cost some amount of prototype salvage. 8 pieces maybe? You may not have gotten the prototype tech you wanted, but you DID get some prototype salvage, I guarantee it. So you will never be stuck in a run of 100 unproductive attempts to get the tech you wanted, you WILL sooner or later get enough prototype salvage and just buy the item outright.
Season 7 has a lot of goals, and making sure everybody has access to the mark 12 set items is waaaaay down on the list, and it suffers for being such a low priority. You can't be "unlucky" anymore, but you can't be lucky either, and it's just a huge time sink.
Actually... since it's incredibly tightly time-gated, making it pointless to run more than 1 or 2 STF missions to get the marks you need, player effort has basically nothing to do with it. It's time, time, and more time.
Why would I, or anyone else for that matter choose to play a game that is at fault? There's no logic in that. They'd be giving in too Cryptic/PWE's greed and will be screwed harder come Season 8.
running around New Romulus once a day
or doing the same 6 STF's,
or the same 6 fleet events,
about 20 times each
just to start 1 of 50 projects needed to get to a low tiered item
Isn't as fun as I hoped it would be.
Maybe they should just let us choose what reward we want from each mission.. at least then we wouldn't be forced to do the same 3 or 4 over and over. ( as we all know some of the missions just take WAY too long for the little tiny reward.. ah hem *fleet blockade*... *azure nebula rescue*..)
Every mission that awards marks should give you the option of marks, more dil, or EC.
Problem (partially) solved.
I don't think anyone is claiming the old system is equitable. If they are, then I can certainly agree with you that it is not. It was, however, better, despite its flaws. Players could grind for those rare prototype salvage items, but in the process they'd earn other things that could be used as well. EDC's to trade in for Doffs or dilithium.
The blue quality salvages were common enough, and could also be traded for dilithium, but they could also be traded for mark 11 set gear and weapons, which have always been just ever so slightly inferior to the mark 12's. The mark 12 gear was always intended as an extra little teeny tiny bonus for those who stuck with it long enough, not something everyone should expect to get. Essentially they were vanity items.
Except that's not how it works. Perhaps you can only play STO for an hour or two every other other day, but a lot of us have more free time than that. Unfortunately these time gates are slowing down a 5-6 hour a day player like myself down to a player who averages an hour a day.
The reputation system does not reflect player skill at all. It only reflects a player's ability to wait for a countdown timer to elapse. This is something literally anyone can do with the exact same proficiency as anyone who has ever lived.
It's not just tough, it's unfair. Do you like that Jem'Hadar Attack Ship you have? Imagine if you were required to earn your right just to have the ability to buy it. Surely this would be done by performing some epic feats of strength and valor in combat, right? No. You just have to submit an order form and wait six months for it to go through. Then you can buy it... after you wait another month for delivery. This waiting period would also require you to regularly touch base with Cryptic, or the process will indefinitely stall. And you have to give up purchasing other ships during the wait period. Does this sound fun? Does this sound like a merit system, awarding more skilled players? No.
Except I'm pretty sure most of the unlucky or new players will quickly discover that this new system, while more "reliable," is still unbearably slow compared to the old way, which would have still reliably granted more gear at a faster rate, and didn't require a 2 month wait to get the good stuff.
And, as stated many times before, this is not how the new system works. Waiting does not require skill. It requires the ability to travel through time at the rate of one second per second, which is apparently innate to all matter in the universe... barring some special theoretical exceptions, that is.