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Sci Still Needs Attention
boootz
Member Posts: 1 Arc User
Offensive sci powers are still pathetic except for Tractor Beam Repulsors, which creates very annoying game play if you are actually trying to shoot the target or use an ability on it and one of your team is repulsing away at it.
When is gravity well iii and photonic shockwave iii going to be restored?
When is gravity well iii and photonic shockwave iii going to be restored?
Post edited by boootz on
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Now friendly TBR being used against you would indicate poor teamplay...
Working sci skills:
- Tykens
- VM with doffs
- TBR
- TB
- TSS
- HE
- PH
Poor performance sci skills:
- Scramble (only good at maxed out 3 too high opportunity cost)
- Energy Siphon (doesn't drain much but gives good return)
- PSW (too weak knock, stun resisted)
- GW (too weak max pull)
- ST (too short clearing)
- MES (well...)
- FBP (too high opportunity cost. only good for tacs)
TRIBBLE sci skills
- JS (useless in teamplay)
- Tachyon beam (does nothing because of resists)
- CPB (does nothing because of resists)
- Photonic officer (high opportunity cost, very little effect)
I remember playing my tac before they nerfed gravity well, and I feared gravity wells. I made sure I had engine batteries to aid my escape.
Now it is a non factor. I had a noob in a public queue game TBR my targets out of my gravity well iii telling me gravity well sucks. He tBR'd everything. Everywhere. He bragged about how his damage was so high.
Our team had 1 kill.
Working sci skills:
- Tykens
- VM with doffs
- TBR
- TB
- TSS
- HE
- PH
- GW .... Pull is fine if you spec it proper... don't forget how many people are running AP doffs and end up with omega up 50% of the time. Its also the best spam control sci skill there is
- ST Clear is exactly as long as it should be... any longer and sci would be junk... which seems to be what we are complaining about
Poor performance sci skills:
- Scramble (only good at maxed out 3 too high opportunity cost)
- Energy Siphon (doesn't drain much but gives good return)
- PSW (too weak knock, stun resisted)... on PSW I think its the fact that it does almost no dmg to boot... at least not long ago it could be counted on for some dmg at least... now its only good for breaking Extends.
- MES (well...)
- FBP I won't disagree with this skill being junk... frankly though I think its junk on tacs to... a skill that just forces a Sub Nuke or a target switch is frankly useless. Don't see that changing.
TRIBBLE sci skills
- JS (useless in teamplay)... I agree that it has no place in PvP... still not every skill need be a PvP skill. The only way to buff this for pvp would be to kill or reduce the break on dmg... which was even worse for balance as it is now. I don't want to be under fire from people using the JS Super Enhanced Battle Cloak again.
- Tachyon beam (does nothing because of resists)
- CPB (does nothing because of resists)
I agree on both of these skills being to week due to resists... I think the easiest fix for this would be as follows. Right now the first 3 points of the resist value = 18 points each... 4-6 = 10 points each and 7-9 = 5 points each.... I say they just need to take the scales on ALL the resist skills and Invert them.... so that the first 3 points = 5 points ect....
This would mean people COULD have the exact same max resist they have now if they spend 9 points. Thing is right now is most wise specing PvP players will put 3-6 points in all the sci resist skills... If the scales where inverted 6 points in would = 45 points instead of 84 I think that would correct the issue. Some people would still be max resist... but no one would be max resist against every possible option.
- Photonic officer (high opportunity cost, very little effect)
hard to argue this one really... it would be more useful if things like Tech doffs didn't exist. Still I could see some interesting changes on this one... perhaps it needs to be more of an on demand type skill.... perhaps it should drop cool downs in a Major way ONCE on the same cool down it has now... something like PH 1 = 50% reduction every active cool PH 2 = 66% and PH 3 = 100%
Problem is, these skills were almost useless before the resists came. (exception: a team spamming CPB)
Even if the resists were removed completely, these skills would have a hard time finding proper use, because of the increased shield capacity healing going on. (Borg-set+BFI doffs)
Back in the days before the borg set, i used to have a Tachyon-RSV that could win 1v1 against anyone. It used 2xTachy3 and CPB3, and only projectile weapons. Doing this, I avoided any healing from RSP, and over a few minutes, the shield drain would overcome the shield heals of the opponent. Only once or twice did I meet a proper tank build and had a stalemate. This build was maxed to the absolute limit. I think this was pretty perfect balance, as the ultimate heal build was just barely able to keep up with a ultimate drain build. Today, it would take a lot to come back up to this level.
If offensive science abilities should remain toothless, then science ships itself shoud be improved.
Personally, I'm glad they removed some shared cooldown from sci skills. What I still do not like, is that science ships are toothless without some major sci powers.
I really like Photonic Officer, but it does not provide anything spectacular over tech doffs at much greater opportunity cost.
Perhaps, photonic officer ability should bypass shared cooldowns and such, to make it interesting choice.
But I'm probably not the best person to give hints, as I usually play odd combinations :P Tac Nebula all the way ! LOL
- Tykens Tykens3 with doff, TR1 without, not so much
- VM with doffs
- TBR
- TB As always, TB1 is good, TB2, 3 are TRIBBLE
- TSS
- HE
- PH
Poor performance sci skills:
- Scramble (only good at maxed out 3 too high opportunity cost)
- Energy Siphon (doesn't drain much but gives good return) agreed
- PSW (too weak knock, stun resisted)
- GW (too weak max pull)
- ST (too short clearing) Is fine, imv
- MES (well...) IS even crappier then JS, really no clue how it is on the same page as PSW
- FBP (too high opportunity cost. only good for tacs)
TRIBBLE sci skills
- JS (useless in teamplay)
- Tachyon beam (does nothing because of resists)
- CPB (does nothing because of resists)
- Photonic officer (high opportunity cost, very little effect)
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
I admit to not having really tested MES. For a high-aux build, if some points are spent in stealth, how well does it cloak you?
Also, the lower sci stations always have hard competition, due to the value of low rank sci heals. Other skills have to be quite good to be able to compete with a second copy of TSS, HE or ST.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Ya I flew a shield strip build before it was cool as well... to be honest it was Over powered. Yes it required a full spec... but to be honest I would decloak my bop... and boom people would explode... or be left so close to dead that the fight was over.
I honesty agree with Cryptic that Sci skills SHOULD be resistable, Not just counterable... now it could be argued that the amount of resist is to high... I simply think it is to easy to protect oneself across the board...
In my perfect version of a STO skill tree I would like to see people forced to make real choices... so that one min maxed sci built could be negated but not while properly defending against another. Right now as I have said it is so easy to have 50+ points in all the sci resist branches that most people do just that....
Having said that perhaps CPB and Tachyon do need a 10-20% bump... and more and I feer they would simply become Overpowered once more if the skill tree is ever updated.
On the borg + maco thing.... well shortly you won't be able to combo borg Shield heals with Maco shields anymore.... That is the best news I have heard for balance in a long time really. I mean if CPB does become a skill with less resistance again... if people run borg shields they will be stripped fairly easily.
maybe with regard to resist and armor, it should be a separate gated thing like space and ground is. you can only put so many points into it, and if you went 9 to energy armor and insulators you wouldn't have enough points to put into any other defense. maybe no minimum limit, just a max limit, so the care bears don't wine about mean pvp'ers forcing them to put points in defensive skills :rolleyes:
and science shuttles or whatever the shuttle is of the science ship
its like, oh, here, we have this science armor, but no one can use it
If you're a Tac captain you can boost it well past 200%...
Still, it's crazy opportunity cost that does nothing but move your teammates ahead of you on the priority target list...or earn you a SNB with your TSS already on CD.
Working sci skills:
- Tykens I generally find this a bit usless in PVE, the problem is that it's generally not enough on it's own to stop stuff that needs pinning down in PE, but it can't be effectivlly combined with grav well due to GCD. At the same time the benefits of the drain can be achived other ways.
- VM with doffs Very poor, even with DoFF's and investement in Skill points the duration is just terribble in PVE terms, i cna achive supiriour effects other ways.
- TBR After Grav Well this is the best skill in the game, some content is littrially impossibble without it.
- TB Tottally usless, there's allmos allways several targets that need CC'ing in PVE and TBR is just supiriour.
- TSS Brilliant skill no complants
- HE same as TSS really
- PH Hard to justify this over other heal/tank skills and only a few sci have encough excess slots for it.
Poor performance sci skills:
- Scramble (only good at maxed out 3 too high opportunity cost) Far too sort a duration, better to just shove them away or get a cruiser to tank them if thats possibble.
- Energy Siphon (doesn't drain much but gives good return) Very good skill, combined with a sci's innatte target subsystem skills and especially Plasmonic leech KDF side and you can inflict some huge shutdowns on the enemy. SHutting down a tac cubes sheilds for 15 seconds is bassiclly game over for the cube.
- PSW (too weak knock, stun resisted) TBR is a better puch skill, the stun is nealy worthless, and the damage is laughable, i can get better torp damage.
- GW (too weak max pull) The pul in PVE is great thank you, this is pretty much the number 1 PVE skill as you can pin nearly anything with it, and the stacking kenetic damage from DoFF's on sheildless/low sheild targets is really nice.
- ST (too short clearing) the problem with this skill is tac team and sheid tanking in general. Sheild tanking is very ineffective and sheild heals are just very junky without the 4X multiplier tac team brings.
- MES (well...) never played with this one, but a cloak isn't that useful in PVE anyway.
- FBP (too high opportunity cost. only good for tacs) Interferes with TSS, dosen't matter that this is capable of shocking amounts of damage if you can pull enough fire onto yourself, becuase withotu a teamate providing cross healing the lakc of TSS is likliy to kill you given your probable damage intake. Really un-suited to sceince in general as it's a skill only a tank would even want to use.
TRIBBLE sci skills
- JS (useless in teamplay) PVE wise it's just the same as Scramble, witha terribble duration you can't do anything meaningful with it that a simple push away or tanking couldn't do better.
- Tachyon beam (does nothing because of resists) If you think the magnitude is bad in PvP, it's 10x worse in PVE. You coud dd a zero on the end of the magnitude and it would still only be so so at best in PVE
- CPB (does nothing because of resists) see Tachyon beam, plus despite plenty of targets in PVE they're rarely gathered that close togetehr without a grav well anyway, which it interferes with via shared boff slots. If the doff Placate was longer lasting this might be worth it as well, but again like jam/scramble it's too short to matter.
- Photonic officer (high opportunity cost, very little effect) A 5 minute recharge for a one/two use per PVE match reduction in CD's that will at best get a skill down to the level of it's GCD isn't worth much.
TBH though all the fixes in the world probbaly wouldn't change whats used in PVE. You just NEED too many sci slots going on heals, and you jsut absolutly need some CC skills that anything else just isn't going to see much use. Even Energy Siphon only gets used on carriers for me as they can't position for good TBR/Grav Well usage.
Spoken like a true PvE'er!
But seriously, in the STFs i can shield-tank in just about any ship. All I need for hull is a HE to wipe the heaviest plasma procs. 2xEPtoS, TSS and 6 points in power insulators is all that's really needed.
EDIT: Just hit me what the differance is. myself, (and most PVE'rs i see in pugs), don't have a set of 3 purple sheild doffs. Gien how strong BFI has been shown to be by hillbert i suspect that would account for a lot of the differance. under heavy fire i need TSS and BFI together to keep my sheilds from collapsing, but with 3 purple BFI doffs i could undoubtdly keep my shelds on full just with BFI, menaing i could cycle it with TSS and drop 1 TSS.
I really don't think that fixing what we have now is the right answer. It's just too screwed up with the resists that have been added in my honest opinion. I'd rather just see Cryptic add some new Science BOff powers at this point. It's fairly obvious they are unhappy with what they've got the way they keep TRIBBLE with it.
If you ran a Sci pre Season 4 you'll know what I'm talking about. It's a sad, sad profession compared to what it used to have the potential for.
Uhmm... I'm not in a PvP fleet, i run only half of my STFs with my PvE fleet, who does not really believe in healing, because NPCs don't do the damage to make it necessary... I usually do 2-3 STFs a night on average... And seriously, I can't remember the last time I died. (unless you count one-shots from full health from ISO-charge or Donatra) Btw: I fly escorts-type-ships 99% of the time.
Nope. I don't die on Normal and haven't on Elite either. The closest I've come is a high crit torp on Elite.
I don't run shield doffs on all chars I STF with either. I rarely use TacTeam either. I do keep it up with my Tacs though, but that's more from habit than need.
I suspect those that pop regularly are not timing heals properly, or are not shield distributing.
The people that struggle are probably the same people I have to insanely heal and resist stack to keep alive against the Normal STF enemies.
Edit:
For the record, most of my STF runs are done with healing/support vessels.
It's all about the builds and the timing of skills.
The dev team should make some improvements. For example: In order to escape the GV and TR, depending on level (1,2,3), the people caught in it must have a minimum engine power level (for 1 - 60, 2 - 67, 3 - 75) or use evasive maneuvers. This is in the idea that Sci captains are primarily crowd control.
Then TB and ES should get a boost, even with the resistances that are in play. (25% - 30% for the high levels 2-3 offered in Lt.Commander slot only) in order to make the Science ships more efficient.
VM depending also in level should affect the Shield power as well. Level 3 50% deduction in the current shield power, level 2 40%, level 1 30%.
Photonic officer either remove this ability or give a major boost in order for the people to use it. 50% reduction time to all abilities, captains and BO.
Last, perhaps a bonus to abilities when they use a science ship. I mention this because of the difference in cooldowns that sci skills have compared to tac skills (BO, example Rapid Fire 3 30sec, a Commander skill)
These are merely suggestions that will put the Sci captains again into play with Science ships.
I have a Sci character and I switch between escort and science ship. Though I love my science ships I am forced to use an escort in order to make some serious damage.
KDF Eng: Boreas I.K.S. Demonon Nemesis {Fleet: HoS}
Rom Sci: Crius I.R.W. Noctem Aeternus {Fleet: LoS}
Fed Tac: Kronos U.S.S. Xibalba, I.S.S. Theogonia{Fleet: HSF}
Sucks to see you banned.
But yeah, doing more than damage than cannon escorts must mean something is amiss in their build.
In no particular order:
1. AMS
2. Pet Phaser Procs
3. DEM from pets
4. Cronts from pets
5. Temporal Stuff
6. Siphon Drones
7. Tachyon Pets? (been awhile since I ran into these)
8. TB pets
9. Other system drain pet abilities eg Orion Intercepters
10. Web console
11. Interrupts (and significant damage at times) Tric pets
12. Grave pulse
13. Ferengi EMP
14. Disrupter Pet Procs
15. Omega 2 part shield stripping
16. Vet ship AoE shield stripping/gaining
17. Omega 3 part defense/kinetic resist debuff
18. MACO 3 part knockback speed debuff
19. Lesser consoles like grappler
20. Vent Theta
So there's multiple systems and system power debuffs, shield stripping, movement debuffs, etc many of which are as good or better than what a Sci Captain in a Sci ship can do.
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