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Ability To Earn LTS?

thlaylierahthlaylierah Member Posts: 2,983 Arc User
Since we are adding more currency to the game, can we get a Zen to LTS credit system so we can earn Dilithium to buy Zen to convert to credit to buy a LTS?
Post edited by thlaylierah on
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  • targpetz101targpetz101 Member Posts: 25 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Since we are adding more currency to the game, can we get a Zen to LTS credit system so we can earn Dilithium to buy Zen to convert to credit to buy a LTS?

    That, I believe, is exactly why they won't do it.
    $200-$300 for sure
    OR
    never pays a dime, gets Gold account and all Vet Rewards
    [SIGPIC]This is not as good as it used to be...[/SIGPIC]
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    That, I believe, is exactly why they won't do it.
    $200-$300 for sure
    OR
    never pays a dime, gets Gold account and all Vet Rewards

    In theory, though, the LTS was paid for with real cash whether or not the person who "never paid a time" spent any of it.
  • starboardnacellestarboardnacelle Member Posts: 67 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    That, I believe, is exactly why they won't do it.
    $200-$300 for sure
    OR
    never pays a dime, gets Gold account and all Vet Rewards

    Exactly. Perfect World and Cryptic need to earn revenue. What you just suggested will completely eliminate the need to pay money for anything and undermine, if not entirely negate, the value of everything they sell.
  • nyniknynik Member Posts: 1,626 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I would have imagined that to have been the next logical request following a statement of a similar affect to allowing people to pay for their subscriptions via zen conversions - but you went right for the surreal first.
  • kobayashlmarukobayashlmaru Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    An LTS purchasable with Dilithium/Zen? It would be hilarious if they did this. The option of grinding alts mercilessly to eventually buy an LTS (which pays YOU back forever, and is the equivalent of real money) would be both ironic and irrational.
    Kobayashi Maru
    Join Date: Sept 2008


    "Holographic tissue paper for the holographic runny nose. Don't give them to patients." - The Doctor
  • l3dz3p85l3dz3p85 Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Exactly. Perfect World and Cryptic need to earn revenue. What you just suggested will completely eliminate the need to pay money for anything and undermine, if not entirely negate, the value of everything they sell.

    Except for the fact that someone actually had to buy the zen you are trading for. But except for that one tiny little glaringly obvious fact, what you said would be true.
  • cers001cers001 Member Posts: 286 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    We lifers and subers don't need another b&%?@ slap from cryptic don't give them ideas
    CVN-65 U.S.S. Enterprise - A ship so badass it survived John McCain.
  • kyeto13kyeto13 Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Not going to happen. You can unlock gold perks on a silver account with dilithium. But you can't buy a gold subscribership with dilithium.

    Cryptic needs money :rolleyes:
    Live on Earth. Work in Space. Play with Dragons. Join the best add on to STO, the Neverwinter holodeck program! Only 14 GPL a month.
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    cers001 wrote: »
    We lifers and subers don't need another b&%?@ slap from cryptic don't give them ideas

    Oh, please. Cryptic has never done anything to negatively impact lifers.

    The game? Yes. I think they have made some real mistakes with the game, overall.

    Lifers have never been singled out as a source of mistreatment though.
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    kyeto13 wrote: »
    Not going to happen. You can unlock gold perks on a silver account with dilithium. But you can't buy a gold subscribership with dilithium.

    Cryptic needs money :rolleyes:

    And Cryptic MAKES money when people buy ZEN with dilithium. What's so hard to grasp about that?
  • zenzenarimasenzenzenarimasen Member Posts: 181 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Since we are adding more currency to the game, can we get a Zen to LTS credit system so we can earn Dilithium to buy Zen to convert to credit to buy a LTS?

    Ok folks, it's Math Time! Get out your pencil and paper. No calculators, I don't want to see any of you cheating on this. And no using Wolfram Alpha to do the calculations for you either.

    For non-subscribers, it's 4000 dilithium per day per character. Lets take the average non-subscriber and their practice of one character per account, so that's a nice 4000 dilithium a day. Lets take a commonly seen number on the exchange, 160 dilithium per zen. That comes out to 25 zen per day. 1 zen is equal to USD $0.01. The price of a lifetime when it's not on sale is USD $300.00, so 30,000 zen. At a rate of 25 zen per day, that comes out to 1200 days.

    1200 days. Assuming you got to work on it RIGHT NOW, starting from scratch, you would have the 30k zen you need on Friday, January 29th, 2016. That is of course assuming you poured every last zen into your lifeitme funds. If you buy one of those 2100 zen ships, you get to add another 84 days to the figure!

    So should this be implemented? Seeing as how it would serve as a massive taunt for any FTP users, my forum name gives a general clue to how much I'm willing to consider it as being a good idea. That is of course if you know the language the name comes from.
    __________________________________________________

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  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Ok folks, it's Math Time! Get out your pencil and paper. No calculators, I don't want to see any of you cheating on this. And no using Wolfram Alpha to do the calculations for you either.

    For non-subscribers, it's 4000 dilithium per day per character. Lets take the average non-subscriber and their practice of one character per account, so that's a nice 4000 dilithium a day. Lets take a commonly seen number on the exchange, 160 dilithium per zen. That comes out to 25 zen per day. 1 zen is equal to USD $0.01. The price of a lifetime when it's not on sale is USD $300.00, so 30,000 zen. At a rate of 25 zen per day, that comes out to 1200 days.

    1200 days. Assuming you got to work on it RIGHT NOW, starting from scratch, you would have the 30k zen you need on Friday, January 29th, 2016. That is of course assuming you poured every last zen into your lifeitme funds. If you buy one of those 2100 zen ships, you get to add another 84 days to the figure!

    So should this be implemented? Seeing as how it would serve as a massive taunt for any FTP users, my forum name gives a general clue to how much I'm willing to consider it as being a good idea. That is of course if you know the language the name comes from.

    It's 8k refinement cap for everyone but, yeah... Now, sure, they could buy ZEN on sale or they could do surveys and free offers for $50 or so of the total. But every one of those gets PWE cash.

    PWE gets cash when people buy ZEN to sell. PWE gets cash from third parties when you do marketing offers.

    PWE still gets $300. There is no issue.

    This is like being upset that someone else bought their sub with a Mastercard as opposed to a VISA or with birthday money instead of a paycheck.
  • cormorancormoran Member Posts: 440 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I think it could actually end up being more profitable for them if they sold lifetimes in the Zstore.

    It starts with the lure of grind for your lifetime, but that will ofcourse take quite a while and many people are going to get bored with that and may start subsidizing their grind by purchasing zen with money. At this point they now have a steadily increasing amount of zen in their account and therefore may be more susceptible to impulse purchases.

    You've got $200 or so worth of zen sitting there slowly accruing through grind and real money, building up to that $300 mark and BAM the new zstore ship comes out, or you get the urge to buy some keys, the zen is there for you to do it right when that impulse hits you.
  • commadorebobcommadorebob Member Posts: 1,223 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Or, you could use one of those bank type things.
    "If you have never used Cello, I'm not interested in your browser opinion."
    ___________________________
    In game: Commadore_Bob; Joined Jul 2009; That post count + 20,000
  • rickeyredshirtrickeyredshirt Member Posts: 1,059 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Or, you could use one of those bank type things.

    Ingenious! Bob you have dazzled me once again! :)
  • zenzenarimasenzenzenarimasen Member Posts: 181 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    It's 8k refinement cap for everyone but, yeah... Now, sure, they could buy ZEN on sale or they could do surveys and free offers for $50 or so of the total. But every one of those gets PWE cash.

    I was assuming the caps were the same as on Champions. If it's 8k for everyone, just have my figures on time. That comes out to (from today, starting from scratch) Monday, June 9th, 2014. That's still entirely too long for someone to try to save up.
    PWE gets cash when people buy ZEN to sell. PWE gets cash from third parties when you do marketing offers.

    PWE still gets $300. There is no issue.

    This is like being upset that someone else bought their sub with a Mastercard as opposed to a VISA or with birthday money instead of a paycheck.

    You completely hit the wrong target. I said nothing about anything like that. I'm well aware that the zen you get on the dilithium market was purchased by somebody (except for the monthly stipends, obviously). My problem is that it requires a rediculous investment of time on the player's part. You can spend 2 years saving up enough dilithium to buy enough zen, or you can work a shift at McDonalds for a week and buy two lifetime accounts.
    __________________________________________________

    ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → Ⓑ Ⓐ
  • yreodredyreodred Member Posts: 3,527 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Since we are adding more currency to the game, can we get a Zen to LTS credit system so we can earn Dilithium to buy Zen to convert to credit to buy a LTS?

    I like the idea!


    I hope my english is understandable, since most of the time i am actually unable to find the right words in my native language.
    "...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--" - (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie

    A tale of two Picards
    (also applies to Star Trek in general)
  • tenkaritenkari Member Posts: 2,906 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Zen sales and bonus Zen . let alone the ability to earn free zen would lower the value significantly, since they have more Zen promotions than LTS Discount sales.
  • happyhappyj0yj0yhappyhappyj0yj0y Member Posts: 699 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I was assuming the caps were the same as on Champions. If it's 8k for everyone...

    In CO the refinement cap is 8000 for Gold and Silver also, though obviously Questionite as opposed to Dilithium. The only time Golds have an advantage is at the 1,000 Day point (and they don't have the instant unlock lifer perk there... at least not yet) when they double their refinement cap to 1,6000.
  • chikahirochikahiro Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I'm just curious how they'd need to adjust the pricing.

    Cash is cash. Zen can be bought, but its also part of a subscriber's stipend and a Lifetimer's stipend. I think that would devalue it somewhat compared to actual cash. Notice they don't offer single-months of playtime via Zen!

    That said, I think STO's Lifetime isn't giving away the farm like CO's. Additionally, there's a ton of stuff to be bought that's not included with a subscription or Lifetime. Also, the act of playing/farming that whole time means the player is actively playing, and doesn't preclude them from buying stuff here and there themselves.

    If they did it, I wouldn't expect it to be $300/30,000 Zen. Maybe $350 or even $400. They'll have the option available, but there's still that clear preference towards buying it outright, and accounts for LTS stipend Zen from folks like me who are past the "break even" point.

    My blog! Zen|Dilithium tracking on Thursdays
    http://samonmaui.blogspot.com
    As a lifetime member of STO, I officially became a financial liability as of April 2012 when compared to a subscriber.
  • happyhappyj0yj0yhappyhappyj0yj0y Member Posts: 699 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    chikahiro wrote: »
    I'm just curious how they'd need to adjust the pricing.

    Cash is cash. Zen can be bought, but its also part of a subscriber's stipend and a Lifetimer's stipend.

    The stipend is $5 a month. An LTS is about $300 on average. That means an LTS requires five years worth of stipends to pay off the initial $300 investment. They've only been giving out points for nine months at this point, meaning it'll be another four years and three months before any LTS has the potential to "pay out" more credit (as the stipend isn't cash) than was put in. Now consider the "in hand versus in bush" value of getting a lump sum now as opposed to over a course of time. Now consider all of the people who will buy an LTS then abandon the game before they ever see five years worth of stipend points (assuming the game lasts that long).

    And the monthly sub, of course, only ever gives 1/3rd of it's value in points.

    So stipends, ultimately, are a non-factor.
  • chikahirochikahiro Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    The stipend is $5 a month. An LTS is about $300 on average. That means an LTS requires five years worth of stipends to pay off the initial $300 investment. They've only been giving out points for nine months at this point, meaning it'll be another four years and three months before any LTS has the potential to "pay out" more credit (as the stipend isn't cash) than was put in. Now consider the "in hand versus in bush" value of getting a lump sum now as opposed to over a course of time. Now consider all of the people who will buy an LTS then abandon the game before they ever see five years worth of stipend points (assuming the game lasts that long).

    And the monthly sub, of course, only ever gives 1/3rd of it's value in points.

    So stipends, ultimately, are a non-factor.

    Well, when I look at what I paid ($300), and go versus the subscription cost, I'm already broke even. The continuing subscription benefits is $15/mo profit for me at this point, and one can argue its more like $10 + $5 Zen. I'm sure I'm not alone in being past the overall break-even point.

    My (poorly articulated argument) is that every Lifer past their overall break-even point has a stipend that is basically $0.00 (at worst -$5.00), to the Zen economy (granted, we can sell Dilithium). I think that's partly why STO has so many things to sell, especially for VAs - to get folks like me putting money back into the game, and hoping we won't save up our stipends to get stuff.

    Overall, I do think stipends have an impact, but without having all of Cryptic's data and such, it'd be really difficult to speculate. Maybe its nothing like you say, maybe its a margin they've already factored into prices, I dunno.

    My blog! Zen|Dilithium tracking on Thursdays
    http://samonmaui.blogspot.com
    As a lifetime member of STO, I officially became a financial liability as of April 2012 when compared to a subscriber.
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    What's relevant is how their accounting works.

    My suspicion is that under SAP, they have to treat it as gift cards issued, probably under a periodic FIFO basis.

    This has three main functions.

    It should dramatically impact their earnings, by a few hundred thousand. That's dramatic for a game that probably grosses $5 million a year.

    For the sake of dividends and tax liability, this lowers Cryptic's contribution. This could be good for reinvestment if Cryptic can get the stipends spent on cheap to produce items, increasing what they can use other money for without liability to PWE shareholders or the IRS.

    If points are unspent for over a year, they have to adjust the liability away, increasing their income and their debt to PWE and the IRS. However, if those points get spent, Cryptic gets the money back through an adjustment.

    In short, they want these points spent and spent on the cheapest possible to produce content. This increases their labor budget and allows them to reinvest more in the game because they get to keep the loss on these points as long as they're spent.
  • happyhappyj0yj0yhappyhappyj0yj0y Member Posts: 699 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    chikahiro wrote: »
    Well, when I look at what I paid ($300), and go versus the subscription cost, I'm already broke even. The continuing subscription benefits is $15/mo profit for me at this point...

    Take a look at how subscriptions now work. When you sub for a month you unlock and keep the benefits of subscription. You aren't looking at getting a recurring fifteen dollars worth of value for $300... you're looking at getting exactly fifteen dollars worth of value for $300.

    So if you want to be generous you can knock three months off how long it takes an LTS "break even" to four years and nine months down from five years.

    Beyond that, what you're addressing there is ultimately irrelevant as we aren't discussing value, but instead the impact of the stipend which is ultimately just a cash-in/cash-out deal. We're dealing with digital wares, there is no per-unit manufacturing costs involved so what you get for your money is precisely meaningless. All that matters is what goes in, and what goes out.

    Ultimately it's $300 in and "$5" out per month (and that "$5" is in quotation marks since it's not real money, and thus inherently worth less in any realistic scenario). Thus it's an absolute plus until the five year mark, after which they are (even then only arguably) down $5 a month... and then you have to factor in all of the people who don't stick around for those full five years who never spend or auction their given credit which costs Cryptic nothing, and also the possibility of the game closing down before anyone's subcsription actually creates an (arguable) cost.
  • thlaylierahthlaylierah Member Posts: 2,983 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I have been subscribed from the beginning and have a fully specced Time Ship.

    Cryptic has enough of my money. :)

    I hit 1,000 days on 10/28.

    What exactly would entice me to go for an LTS otherwise?
  • edna#7310 edna Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    An LTS purchasable with Dilithium/Zen? It would be hilarious if they did this. The option of grinding alts mercilessly to eventually buy an LTS (which pays YOU back forever, and is the equivalent of real money) would be both ironic and irrational.

    that zen is bought with real money .the dilithium exchange zen comes from other people not from god .Who pays and who spends that virtual curency(zen) is really not important aslong is bought with real money and from what I know there is no other way to get zen .


    If they will ever bring LTS/normal sub to c store Im sure they will remove the stipend from the offer and only give players the vet days and rewards without stipend.It would be stupid to pay zen and get zen back every month.
  • chikahirochikahiro Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Take a look at how subscriptions now work. When you sub for a month you unlock and keep the benefits of subscription. You aren't looking at getting a recurring fifteen dollars worth of value for $300... you're looking at getting exactly fifteen dollars worth of value for $300.

    So if you want to be generous you can knock three months off how long it takes an LTS "break even" to four years and nine months down from five years.
    Wait, so if you subscribe for one month, then you've unlocked all of Gold's features (except the stipend and VRs), even if you drop to Silver the following month? Then what's the point of a subscription at all? I'm a bit confused...
    Beyond that, what you're addressing there is ultimately irrelevant as we aren't discussing value, but instead the impact of the stipend which is ultimately just a cash-in/cash-out deal. We're dealing with digital wares, there is no per-unit manufacturing costs involved so what you get for your money is precisely meaningless. All that matters is what goes in, and what goes out.
    Which is why I think LTS is currently cash only. That's an actual revenue input into the system. Subscriptions are an actual revenue going into the system. LTS are a one-time revenue in, but eventually you run the possibility of the player "breaking even" and without additional reasons to put more money in, they're basically less revenue than a subscriber who has been playing for the same period of time.

    And, while we're dealing with a digital service, keep in mind that *services* have overhead. Staffing, hosting, maintenance, royalties, etc. all have to be paid, and there has to be a certain level of profit otherwise money is better spent elsewhere on something that generates more profit (example: COH). Moreover, items we see in game do have a cost, but its in design, creation and testing, primarily incurred by staffing/manpower expenses. I don't know how many hundreds or thousands of dollars goes into making a single ship, how many people are involved, etc., nor how many of them they typically expect to sell, but there' a cost and a point they need to reach to make it a worthwhile activity.

    This is why I wonder about LTS players possibly diluting the pool. But, regardless of our theories and beliefs, that's something for their accounting/business folks to look over, examine, etc., and decide what they feel makes the best sense for the company.

    You present a good argument, but it doesn't really do anything to change my mind or change my view on what is essentially a gut feeling for me. I'd really need hard numbers and a good explanation of those numbers. Of course, even under my view of the LTS, at least players past the "break even" stage provide value to the game by virtue of being there, playing and interacting (or even just being seen and making more instances).

    Side thought: if one could buy LTS via Zen, then a combination of Dilithium to Zen and Money to Zen would become a viable option... grind up $100, pay $100, wait for a sale...

    edit: And, if I'm missing your point, I apologize. Long day at work >_<

    My blog! Zen|Dilithium tracking on Thursdays
    http://samonmaui.blogspot.com
    As a lifetime member of STO, I officially became a financial liability as of April 2012 when compared to a subscriber.
  • mbomberdavidmbomberdavid Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    l3dz3p85 wrote: »
    Except for the fact that someone actually had to buy the zen you are trading for. But except for that one tiny little glaringly obvious fact, what you said would be true.

    Well put... It would give the grinders something really worth while to mine for and i expect it would drop the dilithium price which would make me more inclined to buy zen to get dilithium. It is worth a pilot project at least...
  • mbomberdavidmbomberdavid Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    chikahiro wrote: »
    I'm just curious how they'd need to adjust the pricing.

    Cash is cash. Zen can be bought, but its also part of a subscriber's stipend and a Lifetimer's stipend. I think that would devalue it somewhat compared to actual cash. Notice they don't offer single-months of playtime via Zen!

    That said, I think STO's Lifetime isn't giving away the farm like CO's. Additionally, there's a ton of stuff to be bought that's not included with a subscription or Lifetime. Also, the act of playing/farming that whole time means the player is actively playing, and doesn't preclude them from buying stuff here and there themselves.

    If they did it, I wouldn't expect it to be $300/30,000 Zen. Maybe $350 or even $400. They'll have the option available, but there's still that clear preference towards buying it outright, and accounts for LTS stipend Zen from folks like me who are past the "break even" point.

    I think you are on the right track here. This could work out for different types of players. I work 6 days a week more often than not and about a third of the time i have late nights in addition to my normal 8.5 hour day. So i do not have much time to play and when i do i dont really feel like grinding. Ill never be as good as people that have hours to play so forget the pay to win stuff - it is not applicable in this case. I do however, have a bit more cash to by zen with than students, people between jobs or players that are not in the best health or what ever other type or player that has time to grind but little extra in a monthly budget for gaming, a situation i have been in myself back in the day. I really like the trading zen for dilithium and hope they expand what can be purchased with zen as it can be of mutual benefit to different types of players (all of which add to the game in my opinion) Lets be frank, the people that would buy LTS by grinding are not the type that would be getting LTS any other way... I also wish you could buy LTS for other players and send them a code.
  • chikahirochikahiro Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I also wish you could buy LTS for other players and send them a code.
    I'd love that too, but I suspect it'd make Cryptic/PWE's customer service department quit over the thoughts of TRIBBLE/fraudulent charges.

    Of course, i wish I had the money to do that too! I could afford it, but it'd be unwise :p

    My blog! Zen|Dilithium tracking on Thursdays
    http://samonmaui.blogspot.com
    As a lifetime member of STO, I officially became a financial liability as of April 2012 when compared to a subscriber.
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