No they are not.
Yes the Bugship is highly OP.
Yes the game is highly DPS-centric in PvE which favors the Escort.
Yes, most good Escort pilot learn quickly how to stay alive in PvP and seem very tanky.
No, most Cruiser pilots refuse to accept that they are not the Damage dealers in STO by design and that if they wish to be such then thier build needs to be outside the box in thought, a Tac Captain and have an agressive design to thier vessels BOff layout.
No, Engineers are not meant to be the primary damage dealers in STO.
No, Science is not meant to be the primary damage dealers in STO.
Yes, many aspects of STO in bugged and unbalanced in PvP.
No, Cruisers do not need a special beam weapon to give them Cannon-like damage output.
Yes, Cruisers may need a turn buff to improve thier gameplay feel.
Yes, Science powers need a review to make them more useful without being to easy to pump with high Aux and make the OP.
Yes, STO has become a cesspool of P2W and ego-centric outlook that has ruined the game.
No, Cruisers are not useless. I see really good and deadly cruisers all the time in PvP.
Yes, since PvP in STO is constantly being bugged and flooded with P2W the methods change too quickly for some to keep up and what was once a simple PvP game has become riddled with confusion that keeps most new players afrom performing like the old players whom have been here since the begining and have learned all the tricks.
Yes, STO has become a joke and is lost in chasing the dollar over creating meaningful gameplay for its customerbase.
Yes, I'm seriuosly considering playing Guild Wars 2 instead of STO becuase the greedy developer and the needy fanbase has soured the game with thier narrow minded desires that only further push STO into being unbalanced and overpriced for a free game.
Yes, they ARE useless. It's not a matter of opinion. This is a fact. No one plays them hardly due to bad design mechanics, BO layout problems. Want to play a galaxy class with a tactical captain let alone any cruiser and try to out tank and out-dps an escort? Sorry not going to happen, period. Shave your beard you might be able to see what is really going on here for once.
Only for you and others whom seem to have issues with them. Many of the PvP fleets use Cruisers very well in combat and seem to have none of the issues that have been brought up in this thread.
Pull your head out your bias and ask those whom make them work how they do it. Stop expecting the Cruiser to fill all roles in STO.
Only for you and others whom seem to have issues with them. Many of the PvP fleets use Cruisers very well in combat and seem to have none of the issues that have been brought up in this thread.
Pull your head out your bias and ask those whom make them work how they do it. Stop expecting the Cruiser to fill all roles in STO.
Let's see Cruiser current role does no damage and is pure heal bot, no tactical optionals at all, bad design mechanics in terms of statistics, problems with weapon drainage with standard use of weapon system, turning problems to use torpedoes, torpedoes in general damage problems being out classed to the new meta of use an all energy type.
I can do all this with an escort and zero problems with functionality. Want me to get into science vessels now?
Sorry but when they designed the cruisers it was to suppose to be doing alot of roles well, not one. Pull your head of out of your " FRUMPLE "
Let's see Cruiser current role does no damage and is pure heal bot, no tactical optionals at all, bad design mechanics in terms of statistics, problems with weapon drainage with standard use of weapon system, turning problems to use torpedoes, torpedoes in general damage problems being out classed to the new meta of use an all energy type.
I can do all this with an escort and zero problems with functionality. Want me to get into science vessels now?
Sorry but when they designed the cruisers it was to suppose to be doing alot of roles well, not one. Pull your head of out of your " FRUMPLE "
It does do many roles well, it just doesn't excell at all of them.
Seen plenty of Threads on Cruiser builds that do damage like the Haikenshien Dreadnuaght or Mavario's Cruiser thread 3.0, so your doing something wrong.
Its stats are fine and reflect a Cruiser very well. High hull, High shields, heavy Engineering BOff layouts, moderate Science and tactical. Its turn may need a buff only.
Weapon drain is not a Cruiser issue but a weapons issue.
Torpedo damage is a torpedo issue not a Cruiser issue.
Science ships suffer becyuase the Devs can't balance the Science powers to be both functional and not OP at too high an Aux usage.
Stop being a whiner that wants the game to fix all the perceptions of Cruiser failure that you can't seem to overcome when others have already done so and told others how they did it.
The Cruiser is the Jack of all trades and Master on none but evidently only to those whom have learned how to master it.
Frankly threads like this one is a reason some stop playing STO becuase they know the fanbase has such TV/Movie skewed perception of how the mighty Cruiser should work and that after enough whinning the Devs will unbalance the game further just to feed off that misperception.
So by all means, whine, *****, tell people to shave, refuse to open your eyes and learn from others becuase it doesn't mesh with your outlook and change the game again. Its not like STO cares, they only want your money.
Primary function: Healer. You heal. You don't do damage, you mitigate for your team and, occasionally, yourself. You heal. This is not useless. This is not trivial. A skilled cruiser captain can add enough healing to an ally being focus fired by four or five people to get them through it. In an Arena, that means one less kill on the scoreboard for the enemy team. You have the power to turn a situation that would result in free points for the enemy team into a waste of a lot of abilities on very long cooldowns. Frankly, at this point in time I don't believe its possible to brute-force kill cruiser heavy team making good use of cross-healing and communication.
Secondary Function: Damage via pressure, most viable as a Tactical Captain. You're constantly forcing whatever you're shooting at to use powers to maintain its existence. If they don't heal your damage, they die. It's easy to heal. You want them to heal. You know what happens when an enemy uses its second Tactical team and EPtS to weather your fire? That enemy makes themselves much more vulnerable to a Sub--nuc from a Sci Captain. Do you know what happens when they're Sub-nuc'd and have little to nothing to fall back on? They die. As a Tactical Captain you can push your damage output high enough that your opponent could very well have to choose between escaping you or using one of its ace-in-hole powers. Heck, with DEM 3, almost any Escort pilot is going to have to seriously consider whether or not it can kill you before you kill it through its shields. Y'know, most escorts are really, really hamstrung for hull healing. You can also make area denial powers, such as Eject Warp Plasma, really hurt if they've already blown Hazard Emitters.
Tertiary role: Crowd controller. You deny zones with Warp Plasma. Depending on the cruiser, you may have a wide selection of tractor beams (both types), sensor scrambles, shockwaves, and the like at your disposal to slot. You clear pet-spam with fire-at-will. You can even lay mines. All of these help tremendously in improving your team's chances of winning a game.
You know what though? A cruiser can do its healing and still find other ways to contribute. Eng/Cruiser? You've got outgoing healing going non-stop and some great built-in save your bacon powers to go along with any other oh-TRIBBLE buttons you might bring. Tac/Cruiser? Surfing for GDF is less risky here than any other ship, and it pays off turning you into a damage-dealing dynamo that cannot be simply ignored. Enemies have to do something about you (kill you, run from you, debuff you, heal through you, whatever), which means they're not doing something about one of your teammates. Sci/Cruiser? Debuff hull resistance (and damage output with appropriate DOff), further improve you and your teams shield resistances, and of course, Sub-nuc.
No. Cruisers are not worthless in PvP. They are extremely important in PvP. Take some time to learn, to realize that, unlike STF's, damage is *not* the only thing that matters. You're the shield to the escort's sword and the sci ship's cane, both benefit tremendously from having you around, just as you benefit tremendously from having them around.
Yes, they ARE useless. It's not a matter of opinion. This is a fact. No one plays them hardly due to bad design mechanics, BO layout problems. Want to play a galaxy class with a tactical captain let alone any cruiser and try to out tank and out-dps an escort? Sorry not going to happen, period. Shave your beard you might be able to see what is really going on here for once.
Are they not ideal for KILLING or are they not ideal for PLAYING?
Because winning PvP isn't all about killing, outside of duels.
If you're so frustrated playing a cruiser with a tactical, roll an engineer or fly an escort.
I think the various "Dragon" builds are pretty cool for a balance but if you're a Tac in a cruiser, it's understood that you're trading DPS and survivability to be a hybrid.
It does do many roles well, it just doesn't excell at all of them.
Seen plenty of Threads on Cruiser builds that do damage like the Haikenshien Dreadnuaght or Mavario's Cruiser thread 3.0, so your doing something wrong.
Its stats are fine and reflect a Cruiser very well. High hull, High shields, heavy Engineering BOff layouts, moderate Science and tactical. Its turn may need a buff only.
Weapon drain is not a Cruiser issue but a weapons issue.
Torpedo damage is a torpedo issue not a Cruiser issue.
Science ships suffer becyuase the Devs can't balance the Science powers to be both functional and not OP at too high an Aux usage.
Stop being a whiner that wants the game to fix all the perceptions of Cruiser failure that you can't seem to overcome when others have already done so and told others how they did it.
The Cruiser is the Jack of all trades and Master on none but evidently only to those whom have learned how to master it.
Frankly threads like this one is a reason some stop playing STO becuase they know the fanbase has such TV/Movie skewed perception of how the mighty Cruiser should work and that after enough whinning the Devs will unbalance the game further just to feed off that misperception.
So by all means, whine, *****, tell people to shave, refuse to open your eyes and learn from others becuase it doesn't mesh with your outlook and change the game again. Its not like STO cares, they only want your money.
I've been around as long as you have and seen all the different incarnations of STO as well. The problem with me is, I still remember how it used to be prior to all the NERFs. My excel NEVER did quite as much damage as a good escort but it was comparable in the end numbers give or take a 100K dps. The difference was mainly of hardly any "spike damage" to speak of in the crusier and that was due to nothing more than tac slots available. Shear survivability and the ability to stay in the fray gave me more "constant damage" thrown and better pressure than the escort. And to me, the game was a boat-load better "balanced" at that point in time as well.
All this "whine" you speak of via now crusier capts is reminicient of escort capts when the adds to FaW were reality. And to tell the truth, the whine from crusier players is really nothing compared to the whine then from escorts. I still remember the threads you and I participated in via the upcoming FaW NERFs and escort people wanting FaW NERFed into oblivian so much that the dev in charge made a statement of "It has to better than not having the power at all". The NERF cryers got what they wanted and I believe even at the time I said STO would become "Escorts Online" with the proposed and wanted NERFs and that is exactly what has happened. After the FaW NERF was done, then these same people turned their attention to Sci powers and you see where that ended up for Sci as well. Over-NERF city. Escort players may indeed be happy now but crusiers and Sci get thrown in the slot that escort players were in. It seems Cryptic can NEVER adjust something, they have to stand back 20 feet, and then come at a dead run against what their looking at with a 20 lb NERF hammer. Is this the players fault? Not at all. Players will scream, cry, yell, bawl and any other action to get attention to try and put their position into the OP class but it remains the developers decision at the end all, be all. You may indeed be right that cruiser crying might now get the attention and we will go back to "Crusiers Online" instead of just upping the balance needed.
Since then, I would imagine, the same exact forum posters who wanted FaW NERFed to where it is today wanted the ACC NERF to beams as well. That, in effect, has had crusiers take more end-game damage to being called "worthless" than the FaW NERF ever did. I seen my own damage in the typ PVP match go from 800K to around 200K. Now, APs are "worthless" as they don't come in ACC X2 much less even ACC X3.
Could Cryptic "fix" this? You bet. But, it would take an admission that the ACC NERF was way too much. Instead of the recent NERFs to tanking resist consoles, NERFing the mk 11s to become the same stats at Mk 12 purples, instead of actualy adding to tanking as they add to DPS. I'm not so sure that resists are working the same or they just are broken and I haven't taken the time to test this, like I used to, due to the simple fact that Cryptic does what they want anyway. A "fleet" version of the excel and Sov would go along way to helping this as well. Hard to go up with a 9 console ship against a 10 console ship with added hull and shield modifier. Or, they could just do this retro-activly the same way they upgraded the bug to the "fleet" ships which would be a much better way as we "bought" and paid for the excel and the new sov just the same as players "bought" the bug.
Cryptic has always seemed to be basicly "lost" and just doesn't take into consideration all the ramifications of their actions when it comes to balance in this game, and this comes from a beta vet.
Cryptic has always seemed to be basicly "lost" and just doesn't take into consideration all the ramifications of their actions when it comes to balance in this game, and this comes from a beta vet.
True. They do not.
Those nerfs you listed though are not Cruiser nerfs but changes made to specific powers or consoles. Cruiser may have suffered more on some by default but the changes made effect everybody in game regardless of vessel type and such drawbacks can easily be fixed without making the Cruiser into a vessel it was not intended to be.
Also what specific ACC nerf?
I know FAW got nerfed becuase it hardly ever missed and could be focused upon a single target for massive damage if done correctly. Among its other interesting bugs.
I know that Beam Overload got a wierd nerf on its accuracy when the "miss" visual mechanic was put into place.
I am unaware of a specific nerf directly to beams accuracy mechanic as a whole though and only know of changes made to correct issues with the two beam associated BOff abilities.
As to the OPs thread title, "Are cruisers completly useless in PvP?". No they are not, the fanbase just doesn't like its designed role in PvP and lament the fact that it can't be as good in the other PvP roles covered by Escorts.
Those nerfs you listed though are not Cruiser nerfs but changes made to specific powers or consoles. Cruiser may have suffered more on some by default but the changes made effect everybody in game regardless of vessel type and such drawbacks can easily be fixed without making the Cruiser into a vessel it was not intended to be.
Also what specific ACC nerf?
I know FAW got nerfed becuase it hardly ever missed and could be focused upon a single target for massive damage if done correctly. Among its other interesting bugs.
I know that Beam Overload got a wierd nerf on its accuracy when the "miss" visual mechanic was put into place.
I am unaware of a specific nerf directly to beams accuracy mechanic as a whole though and only know of changes made to correct issues with the two beam associated BOff abilities.
As to the OPs thread title, "Are cruisers completly useless in PvP?". No they are not, the fanbase just doesn't like its designed role in PvP and lament the fact that it can't be as good in the other PvP roles covered by Escorts.
The ACC NERF had to come when I was over at TOR after my total disgust with Cryptic happened at the NERFS with skill-box revamps. I wasn't here for it but noticed this within 5 minutes after I came back. Hus and I talked breifly about this in a thread over in the PVP forums and he confirmed this as well. This basicly forced me to get rid of my APs and go Pols just to see them NERFed about 1 week after the switch. ROFL The ACC beam NERF could of been a ninja NERF for all I know, with no patch notes as we both have seen that happen as well.
I did testing on this when it came up over on the PVP forums, way back when, and found that beams, them selves, seemed to have an inherent (built in) 95% ACC rating. FaW did not add to the ACC rating but it really became evident when FaW, in that configuration was used. Probably as an offset for the low damage and over power requirements. But it certainly has CHANGED and not for the better. Again, I just do not do the testing anylonger like what BRJ and I used to do with exact numbers to compare basicly for the reasoning I tend to just play STO, due to the lifetime, when I don't have anything else to play. Altho, I do like the "sandbox" - long term development they have added for the fleet stations.
Not very many players want to be a support prof. Even with WoWs 8 mil subs, healers are at a premium there as well. And then you have the IP here that battles with crusiers being nothing more but support that players who are "trekies" are never going to swallow. It really amazes me sometimes that Cryptic can't do a better job with balance for a game with only 3 profs. This is nothing like the brain surgery it was for SOE's pre-CU SWG when they had 32 profs and dual proffesioning.
It's not just PVP gameplay anylonger that crusiers have taken the brunt of. PVE content now, at end game, is totaly DPS required as well. I have to admit that I cringe myself still flying an excel, when I see teams loaded with crusiers in the 20 man or even 4 crus in an STF. I did a 20 man loaded with crusiers last night in fact and got 14 tokens out of it. When the instance is escort heavy, I've gotten as much as 70-80 points out of them so it's definatly affecting more than just PVP gameplay now.
Sounds like the ACC nerf is the one refered to that allows misses in combat, with the graphics. Since that change beams have been unreliable under Faw and BO. I can not speak to unbuffed beam attacks.
Unfortunately Support and multipurposing is what the Cruisers have been primarily slated to do in combat since the begining of the game.
Though there are optional Cruisers with a bent for Tactical set-ups such as the Assualt Cruiser with a LTC tac BOff if a player wishes to go the Tac/Cruiser route.
If STO has become so DPS heavy as to not be viable with anything but an escort then the game needs to be fixed, not just the Cruisers themselves.
Making the Cruiser more into a DPS gunboat will not fix the issue and will only blur the lines of the vessel classes ingame to the point of being more broken than what we have now.
Cruisers bumped up to Escort damage levels without the Escorts handicaps means Escorts would need some tanking added to keep them viable (as the glass cannon idea will be null if the cruiser can now be a tank and do escort damage) in game so as to not be overshadowed and leaves the Science vessel completely in the dark.
They need to fix the game instead of constantly trying to fix the classes, vessels or weapons to suit the everchanging opinion of the fanbase or further cluttering up balance with the next (admitted by a dev) a little OP designed ship (becuase alittle OP sells).
I have no issue with an across the board bump in the Cruiser and Battle Cruisers turn mechanics.
Still the OPs statement of the usefulness of a cruiser in PvP is false. As support vessels and even DPS boats, they have a use in PvP.
Sounds like the ACC nerf is the one refered to that allows misses in combat, with the graphics. Since that change beams have been unreliable under Faw and BO. I can not speak to unbuffed beam attacks.
Unfortunately Support and multipurposing is what the Cruisers have been primarily slated to do in combat since the begining of the game.
Though there are optional Cruisers with a bent for Tactical set-ups such as the Assualt Cruiser with a LTC tac BOff if a player wishes to go the Tac/Cruiser route.
If STO has become so DPS heavy as to not be viable with anything but an escort then the game needs to be fixed, not just the Cruisers themselves.
Making the Cruiser more into a DPS gunboat will not fix the issue and will only blur the lines of the vessel classes ingame to the point of being more broken than what we have now.
Cruisers bumped up to Escort damage levels without the Escorts handicaps means Escorts would need some tanking added to keep them viable (as the glass cannon idea will be null if the cruiser can now be a tank and do escort damage) in game so as to not be overshadowed and leaves the Science vessel completely in the dark.
They need to fix the game instead of constantly trying to fix the classes, vessels or weapons to suit the everchanging opinion of the fanbase or further cluttering up balance with the next (admitted by a dev) a little OP designed ship (becuase alittle OP sells).
I have no issue with an across the board bump in the Cruiser and Battle Cruisers turn mechanics.
Still the OPs statement of the usefulness of a cruiser in PvP is false. As support vessels and even DPS boats, they have a use in PvP.
There is no more "glass cannon" in game, really. When even the def-R was introed it could run the same resists as a crus with it's 3 eng consoles as it had no need for the power console a 6 beam-boat needed. When the bug and now the fleet patrol escort came out, an escort can and does run better resists than the basic crusier. The Pay-to-live eng Oddy may be the exception to this rule with it's 5 eng slots altho with DR the add to basic "tanking" and resists is minimal. The last of the "glass cannons" may be the MVAM with it's 2 eng consoles but even that is being FoTMed out by the playerbase.
The ACC NERF is really appearent in PVE with the bosses in the 20 man dumping spam after spam. FaW, nor beams, doesn't clear spam no where near like it used to anylonger. It, and the beams, miss way too much even running AC X2 pols, due to over-NERF and to these spam pets running aound with 100+% defence. Last night, I was in with 1 of these NPCs and had to use my "get-the flock outta dodge" button just to take the fighters with me and spend about 5+ minutes just clearing all the spam that 1 NPC droped or they were going to take my ship out. But dieing is just another programed deal Cryptic has added into STO. In SWG, cloning was to be avoided at all costs, kick everything you have, etc to avoid death, but it's basicly "programmed to die" development in certain situations now which has even made not even care about death anylonger. The 1 hit kills in STFs are another of these deals.
Your entirely correct. /agree 150%. The game needs to be fixed. While DPS and tanking for the FoTM escorts have been increased via the C-Store and what sells, tanking and even healing (via the skill-box revamps) has been NERFed for crus and sci, and tanking ships shear DPS have been NERFed as well. The sad part is, they might even get into my wallet if they introed an assault crus that was as good as the bug and I totaly detest P2W. But, it is what it is now. And PVP gameplay will definatly suffer while Crus and Sci capts screaming for "some luv" will be the new norm. It's just not fun to not have a chance and watch your ship melt in 2 secs, flat without even the time to react or the engine smply can not keep up with what's going on via the screen.
Oh well, out for a bit. I need to get back to making an argument I'll actualy get paid for and some1 with some authority will actualy listen to. lol
Comments
R.I.P
Only for you and others whom seem to have issues with them. Many of the PvP fleets use Cruisers very well in combat and seem to have none of the issues that have been brought up in this thread.
Pull your head out your bias and ask those whom make them work how they do it. Stop expecting the Cruiser to fill all roles in STO.
R.I.P
Let's see Cruiser current role does no damage and is pure heal bot, no tactical optionals at all, bad design mechanics in terms of statistics, problems with weapon drainage with standard use of weapon system, turning problems to use torpedoes, torpedoes in general damage problems being out classed to the new meta of use an all energy type.
I can do all this with an escort and zero problems with functionality. Want me to get into science vessels now?
Sorry but when they designed the cruisers it was to suppose to be doing alot of roles well, not one. Pull your head of out of your " FRUMPLE "
It does do many roles well, it just doesn't excell at all of them.
Seen plenty of Threads on Cruiser builds that do damage like the Haikenshien Dreadnuaght or Mavario's Cruiser thread 3.0, so your doing something wrong.
Its stats are fine and reflect a Cruiser very well. High hull, High shields, heavy Engineering BOff layouts, moderate Science and tactical. Its turn may need a buff only.
Weapon drain is not a Cruiser issue but a weapons issue.
Torpedo damage is a torpedo issue not a Cruiser issue.
Science ships suffer becyuase the Devs can't balance the Science powers to be both functional and not OP at too high an Aux usage.
Stop being a whiner that wants the game to fix all the perceptions of Cruiser failure that you can't seem to overcome when others have already done so and told others how they did it.
The Cruiser is the Jack of all trades and Master on none but evidently only to those whom have learned how to master it.
Frankly threads like this one is a reason some stop playing STO becuase they know the fanbase has such TV/Movie skewed perception of how the mighty Cruiser should work and that after enough whinning the Devs will unbalance the game further just to feed off that misperception.
So by all means, whine, *****, tell people to shave, refuse to open your eyes and learn from others becuase it doesn't mesh with your outlook and change the game again. Its not like STO cares, they only want your money.
R.I.P
Primary function: Healer. You heal. You don't do damage, you mitigate for your team and, occasionally, yourself. You heal. This is not useless. This is not trivial. A skilled cruiser captain can add enough healing to an ally being focus fired by four or five people to get them through it. In an Arena, that means one less kill on the scoreboard for the enemy team. You have the power to turn a situation that would result in free points for the enemy team into a waste of a lot of abilities on very long cooldowns. Frankly, at this point in time I don't believe its possible to brute-force kill cruiser heavy team making good use of cross-healing and communication.
Secondary Function: Damage via pressure, most viable as a Tactical Captain. You're constantly forcing whatever you're shooting at to use powers to maintain its existence. If they don't heal your damage, they die. It's easy to heal. You want them to heal. You know what happens when an enemy uses its second Tactical team and EPtS to weather your fire? That enemy makes themselves much more vulnerable to a Sub--nuc from a Sci Captain. Do you know what happens when they're Sub-nuc'd and have little to nothing to fall back on? They die. As a Tactical Captain you can push your damage output high enough that your opponent could very well have to choose between escaping you or using one of its ace-in-hole powers. Heck, with DEM 3, almost any Escort pilot is going to have to seriously consider whether or not it can kill you before you kill it through its shields. Y'know, most escorts are really, really hamstrung for hull healing. You can also make area denial powers, such as Eject Warp Plasma, really hurt if they've already blown Hazard Emitters.
Tertiary role: Crowd controller. You deny zones with Warp Plasma. Depending on the cruiser, you may have a wide selection of tractor beams (both types), sensor scrambles, shockwaves, and the like at your disposal to slot. You clear pet-spam with fire-at-will. You can even lay mines. All of these help tremendously in improving your team's chances of winning a game.
You know what though? A cruiser can do its healing and still find other ways to contribute. Eng/Cruiser? You've got outgoing healing going non-stop and some great built-in save your bacon powers to go along with any other oh-TRIBBLE buttons you might bring. Tac/Cruiser? Surfing for GDF is less risky here than any other ship, and it pays off turning you into a damage-dealing dynamo that cannot be simply ignored. Enemies have to do something about you (kill you, run from you, debuff you, heal through you, whatever), which means they're not doing something about one of your teammates. Sci/Cruiser? Debuff hull resistance (and damage output with appropriate DOff), further improve you and your teams shield resistances, and of course, Sub-nuc.
No. Cruisers are not worthless in PvP. They are extremely important in PvP. Take some time to learn, to realize that, unlike STF's, damage is *not* the only thing that matters. You're the shield to the escort's sword and the sci ship's cane, both benefit tremendously from having you around, just as you benefit tremendously from having them around.
Are they not ideal for KILLING or are they not ideal for PLAYING?
Because winning PvP isn't all about killing, outside of duels.
If you're so frustrated playing a cruiser with a tactical, roll an engineer or fly an escort.
I think the various "Dragon" builds are pretty cool for a balance but if you're a Tac in a cruiser, it's understood that you're trading DPS and survivability to be a hybrid.
I've been around as long as you have and seen all the different incarnations of STO as well. The problem with me is, I still remember how it used to be prior to all the NERFs. My excel NEVER did quite as much damage as a good escort but it was comparable in the end numbers give or take a 100K dps. The difference was mainly of hardly any "spike damage" to speak of in the crusier and that was due to nothing more than tac slots available. Shear survivability and the ability to stay in the fray gave me more "constant damage" thrown and better pressure than the escort. And to me, the game was a boat-load better "balanced" at that point in time as well.
All this "whine" you speak of via now crusier capts is reminicient of escort capts when the adds to FaW were reality. And to tell the truth, the whine from crusier players is really nothing compared to the whine then from escorts. I still remember the threads you and I participated in via the upcoming FaW NERFs and escort people wanting FaW NERFed into oblivian so much that the dev in charge made a statement of "It has to better than not having the power at all". The NERF cryers got what they wanted and I believe even at the time I said STO would become "Escorts Online" with the proposed and wanted NERFs and that is exactly what has happened. After the FaW NERF was done, then these same people turned their attention to Sci powers and you see where that ended up for Sci as well. Over-NERF city. Escort players may indeed be happy now but crusiers and Sci get thrown in the slot that escort players were in. It seems Cryptic can NEVER adjust something, they have to stand back 20 feet, and then come at a dead run against what their looking at with a 20 lb NERF hammer. Is this the players fault? Not at all. Players will scream, cry, yell, bawl and any other action to get attention to try and put their position into the OP class but it remains the developers decision at the end all, be all. You may indeed be right that cruiser crying might now get the attention and we will go back to "Crusiers Online" instead of just upping the balance needed.
Since then, I would imagine, the same exact forum posters who wanted FaW NERFed to where it is today wanted the ACC NERF to beams as well. That, in effect, has had crusiers take more end-game damage to being called "worthless" than the FaW NERF ever did. I seen my own damage in the typ PVP match go from 800K to around 200K. Now, APs are "worthless" as they don't come in ACC X2 much less even ACC X3.
Could Cryptic "fix" this? You bet. But, it would take an admission that the ACC NERF was way too much. Instead of the recent NERFs to tanking resist consoles, NERFing the mk 11s to become the same stats at Mk 12 purples, instead of actualy adding to tanking as they add to DPS. I'm not so sure that resists are working the same or they just are broken and I haven't taken the time to test this, like I used to, due to the simple fact that Cryptic does what they want anyway. A "fleet" version of the excel and Sov would go along way to helping this as well. Hard to go up with a 9 console ship against a 10 console ship with added hull and shield modifier. Or, they could just do this retro-activly the same way they upgraded the bug to the "fleet" ships which would be a much better way as we "bought" and paid for the excel and the new sov just the same as players "bought" the bug.
Cryptic has always seemed to be basicly "lost" and just doesn't take into consideration all the ramifications of their actions when it comes to balance in this game, and this comes from a beta vet.
True. They do not.
Those nerfs you listed though are not Cruiser nerfs but changes made to specific powers or consoles. Cruiser may have suffered more on some by default but the changes made effect everybody in game regardless of vessel type and such drawbacks can easily be fixed without making the Cruiser into a vessel it was not intended to be.
Also what specific ACC nerf?
I know FAW got nerfed becuase it hardly ever missed and could be focused upon a single target for massive damage if done correctly. Among its other interesting bugs.
I know that Beam Overload got a wierd nerf on its accuracy when the "miss" visual mechanic was put into place.
I am unaware of a specific nerf directly to beams accuracy mechanic as a whole though and only know of changes made to correct issues with the two beam associated BOff abilities.
As to the OPs thread title, "Are cruisers completly useless in PvP?". No they are not, the fanbase just doesn't like its designed role in PvP and lament the fact that it can't be as good in the other PvP roles covered by Escorts.
R.I.P
The ACC NERF had to come when I was over at TOR after my total disgust with Cryptic happened at the NERFS with skill-box revamps. I wasn't here for it but noticed this within 5 minutes after I came back. Hus and I talked breifly about this in a thread over in the PVP forums and he confirmed this as well. This basicly forced me to get rid of my APs and go Pols just to see them NERFed about 1 week after the switch. ROFL The ACC beam NERF could of been a ninja NERF for all I know, with no patch notes as we both have seen that happen as well.
I did testing on this when it came up over on the PVP forums, way back when, and found that beams, them selves, seemed to have an inherent (built in) 95% ACC rating. FaW did not add to the ACC rating but it really became evident when FaW, in that configuration was used. Probably as an offset for the low damage and over power requirements. But it certainly has CHANGED and not for the better. Again, I just do not do the testing anylonger like what BRJ and I used to do with exact numbers to compare basicly for the reasoning I tend to just play STO, due to the lifetime, when I don't have anything else to play. Altho, I do like the "sandbox" - long term development they have added for the fleet stations.
Not very many players want to be a support prof. Even with WoWs 8 mil subs, healers are at a premium there as well. And then you have the IP here that battles with crusiers being nothing more but support that players who are "trekies" are never going to swallow. It really amazes me sometimes that Cryptic can't do a better job with balance for a game with only 3 profs. This is nothing like the brain surgery it was for SOE's pre-CU SWG when they had 32 profs and dual proffesioning.
It's not just PVP gameplay anylonger that crusiers have taken the brunt of. PVE content now, at end game, is totaly DPS required as well. I have to admit that I cringe myself still flying an excel, when I see teams loaded with crusiers in the 20 man or even 4 crus in an STF. I did a 20 man loaded with crusiers last night in fact and got 14 tokens out of it. When the instance is escort heavy, I've gotten as much as 70-80 points out of them so it's definatly affecting more than just PVP gameplay now.
Unfortunately Support and multipurposing is what the Cruisers have been primarily slated to do in combat since the begining of the game.
Though there are optional Cruisers with a bent for Tactical set-ups such as the Assualt Cruiser with a LTC tac BOff if a player wishes to go the Tac/Cruiser route.
If STO has become so DPS heavy as to not be viable with anything but an escort then the game needs to be fixed, not just the Cruisers themselves.
Making the Cruiser more into a DPS gunboat will not fix the issue and will only blur the lines of the vessel classes ingame to the point of being more broken than what we have now.
Cruisers bumped up to Escort damage levels without the Escorts handicaps means Escorts would need some tanking added to keep them viable (as the glass cannon idea will be null if the cruiser can now be a tank and do escort damage) in game so as to not be overshadowed and leaves the Science vessel completely in the dark.
They need to fix the game instead of constantly trying to fix the classes, vessels or weapons to suit the everchanging opinion of the fanbase or further cluttering up balance with the next (admitted by a dev) a little OP designed ship (becuase alittle OP sells).
I have no issue with an across the board bump in the Cruiser and Battle Cruisers turn mechanics.
Still the OPs statement of the usefulness of a cruiser in PvP is false. As support vessels and even DPS boats, they have a use in PvP.
R.I.P
There is no more "glass cannon" in game, really. When even the def-R was introed it could run the same resists as a crus with it's 3 eng consoles as it had no need for the power console a 6 beam-boat needed. When the bug and now the fleet patrol escort came out, an escort can and does run better resists than the basic crusier. The Pay-to-live eng Oddy may be the exception to this rule with it's 5 eng slots altho with DR the add to basic "tanking" and resists is minimal. The last of the "glass cannons" may be the MVAM with it's 2 eng consoles but even that is being FoTMed out by the playerbase.
The ACC NERF is really appearent in PVE with the bosses in the 20 man dumping spam after spam. FaW, nor beams, doesn't clear spam no where near like it used to anylonger. It, and the beams, miss way too much even running AC X2 pols, due to over-NERF and to these spam pets running aound with 100+% defence. Last night, I was in with 1 of these NPCs and had to use my "get-the flock outta dodge" button just to take the fighters with me and spend about 5+ minutes just clearing all the spam that 1 NPC droped or they were going to take my ship out. But dieing is just another programed deal Cryptic has added into STO. In SWG, cloning was to be avoided at all costs, kick everything you have, etc to avoid death, but it's basicly "programmed to die" development in certain situations now which has even made not even care about death anylonger. The 1 hit kills in STFs are another of these deals.
Your entirely correct. /agree 150%. The game needs to be fixed. While DPS and tanking for the FoTM escorts have been increased via the C-Store and what sells, tanking and even healing (via the skill-box revamps) has been NERFed for crus and sci, and tanking ships shear DPS have been NERFed as well. The sad part is, they might even get into my wallet if they introed an assault crus that was as good as the bug and I totaly detest P2W. But, it is what it is now. And PVP gameplay will definatly suffer while Crus and Sci capts screaming for "some luv" will be the new norm. It's just not fun to not have a chance and watch your ship melt in 2 secs, flat without even the time to react or the engine smply can not keep up with what's going on via the screen.
Oh well, out for a bit. I need to get back to making an argument I'll actualy get paid for and some1 with some authority will actualy listen to. lol