Main reason is that in Star Trek combat (originally), Cruisers would exchange salvos over hundreds of thousands of kilometers (stated several times on screen). Your small craft would be space dust before they entered visual range with anything and even then ships are fitted with 360 degree phaser arrays.
Basically, Star Trek does not offer what it needs to employ "space fighters" and it was never about those. Even when they got those in late DS9 they were a distraction not a capable fighting squad. STO introduced it because every sci-fi universe out there takes the wing commander approach and the navy is cool anyways and people want present day naval battles in space.
That's the short version
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Some middle eastern country took down a drone with fairly simple tech recently. They are mostly just useful at recon if the enemy has good tech.
And its easy enough to take out a swarm of fighters. And iran got lucky I hear the one they got was malfunctioning which is why they even knew it was there.
Point was if we can do it now why couldn't we do it better in 400 years? And if the drones have the same attrition rate or worse than a manned fighter it's still better since you get to keep your skilled fighter pilot.
As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Main reason is that in Star Trek combat (originally), Cruisers would exchange salvos over hundreds of thousands of kilometers (stated several times on screen). Your small craft would be space dust before they entered visual range with anything and even then ships are fitted with 360 degree phaser arrays.
Basically, Star Trek does not offer what it needs to employ "space fighters" and it was never about those. Even when they got those in late DS9 they were a distraction not a capable fighting squad. STO introduced it because every sci-fi universe out there takes the wing commander approach and the navy is cool anyways and people want present day naval battles in space.
That's the short version
Probably right but there are soft canon sources for the federation having carriers. Besides having atmo capability would at least make them useful to support ground ops. The federation may be dedicated to peace but they aren't stupid. I'm sure there are marines and whatnot just incase.
As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Probably right but there are soft canon sources for the federation having carriers. Besides having atmo capability would at least make them useful to support ground ops. The federation may be dedicated to peace but they aren't stupid. I'm sure there are marines and whatnot just incase.
In soft canon there is so much which was never spoken of again, that's not a viable source.
But I know what you are going for. Orbital fighter craft are actually present in Star Trek. The Bajorans had them on screen, the Remans and Runabouts and Peregrines have their purpose. But just not at space combat. I'm fine with them being launched by stations to intercept long range projectiles and such but it just doesn't make sense launching sub-warp small craft in cruiser battles. I'm fine with them assisting ground operations, though Starfleet doesn't have "marines" and the like at least in canon. In fact, canonically, the concept of ground based warfare was such a barbaric and outrageous thought that it gave picard the chills. When the Jem'Hadar attacked AR-558, the Starfleet personnel provided with prototype ground equipment were horrified, outnumbered and completely incapable of withstanding the enemy. True they would adapt and employ something like "Hazard Team elite forces" but I don't think they would adapt an army battalion. And you don't really need "marines" when you have Star Cruisers in orbit which can easily annihilate every random spot on a planets surface.
It's just the point - Star Trek was never about fighters and carriers, every other sci-fi show/game/movie was. Why don't leave Star Trek be Star Trek? *sob*
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
last i checked the AC was also t5, if you start with t1 at ltd level.
the tiers only count as a new one, if BOFF slots are added...and with all z-store ships thats not the case.
So t5 means rear admiral and up...12 Boff slots, z-store ships were generally considered t5.5 if they had a build in power.
Also all t5 ships are endgame ships, including patrol escort, assault escort, reccon vessel, deep space sci vessel, star cruiser assault cruiser.
I count Tier 5 ships as ships that you don't get for free for leveling up (which I love about this game btw, don't have to save up dil to get your next tier of ship YEEEES). Basically the Vice Admiral ships. I count Rear Admiral as Tier 4, Captain as Tier 3, Commander as Tier 2, and LtCmdr as tier 1, and your starting ship as a Lt as Tier 0 (cuz let's face it, that frigate is not a great ship at all XD). But that's the system I am referring to when I say Tier 5, so perhaps I should have been a mite more specific and said Vice Admiral ships.
So for the most part, ships that fall under my definition of Tier 5 are pretty much limited to Fleet Ships, a few retrofits, the Dreadnaught, the Odysseys, the carriers, and the MVAE. And I don't count the loloquarius as a Tier 5. In fact I deny it's very existence XD.
And out of all those ships, the only Tier 5 Cruisers (again using my definition of tier 5) are the Odysseys, Galaxy Retrofit/Dreadnaught/Fleet Retrofit, Fleet Star Cruiser, Heavy Cruiser Retrofit, and Fleet Heavy Cruiser Retrofit.
Bearing that in mind, we already removed the Heavy Cruiser Retrofit and Fleet version due to them being too small by nature and not having the energy output to sustain heavy beam arrays, which leaves us with the Galaxy Ships, Odyssey Ships, and that Fleet Star Cruiser, which is so unseen it might as well not be there.
THOSE are the ships we were referring to with the new weapon/buff portions of the thread.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
In soft canon there is so much which was never spoken of again, that's not a viable source.
But I know what you are going for. Orbital fighter craft are actually present in Star Trek. The Bajorans had them on screen, the Remans and Runabouts and Peregrines have their purpose. But just not at space combat. I'm fine with them being launched by stations to intercept long range projectiles and such but it just doesn't make sense launching sub-warp small craft in cruiser battles. I'm fine with them assisting ground operations, though Starfleet doesn't have "marines" and the like at least in canon. In fact, canonically, the concept of ground based warfare was such a barbaric and outrageous thought that it gave picard the chills. When the Jem'Hadar attacked AR-558, the Starfleet personnel provided with prototype ground equipment were horrified, outnumbered and completely incapable of withstanding the enemy. True they would adapt and employ something like "Hazard Team elite forces" but I don't think they would adapt an army battalion. And you don't really need "marines" when you have Star Cruisers in orbit which can easily annihilate every random spot on a planets surface.
It's just the point - Star Trek was never about fighters and carriers, every other sci-fi show/game/movie was. Why don't leave Star Trek be Star Trek? *sob*
You would eventualy need trained ground forces since not all targets can be bombarded from space. Technicaly marines are combat personell assigned to naval vessels so a well trained security team counts a a marine division (even though they have other duties).
And while soft canon is unreliable it still exists and some of it eventualy becomes canon, so you can't dismiss all of it.(Much as we would like to with most of it.)
As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085
Hence why I added in only TIER 5 cruisers can use it. I believe I highlighted it in blue XD. But that was my intent. That's why it wouldn't make cruisers OP, because it was ONLY FOR TIER 5 SIHPS. Hence why it's not overpowered. I tried to think of everythign I could when I designed it.
For cryptic to make money on a true refit for
The Galaxy class your right it has to be on the
Tier 5 ship
Also it has to be limited to the ship not a interchangeable
Part/console I like the idea of heavy beam arrays but the ship needs
More than that
A third Tac console
Universal commander boff
Maneuverability bumped up to 9
Anti matter spread should be on the ship
Deflector shot should be on the ship
On test center let players test it against tier
5 escorts until it's balanced meaning either
Ship could win I'n a 1 on 1 pvp
Repeat with a tier 5 science ship
Adjust all ships as nessary
It's just common sense and it would sell as
Well as improve the game overall
Balanced yet different
More than likely we will keep the mess we have
Now.
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085
Hence why I added in only TIER 5 cruisers can use it. I believe I highlighted it in blue XD. But that was my intent. That's why it wouldn't make cruisers OP, because it was ONLY FOR TIER 5 SIHPS. Hence why it's not overpowered. I tried to think of everythign I could when I designed it.
For cryptic to make money on a true refit for
The Galaxy class your right it has to be on the
Tier 5 ship
Also it has to be limited to the ship not a interchangeable
Part/console I like the idea of heavy beam arrays but the ship needs
More than that
A third Tac console
Universal commander boff
Maneuverability bumped up to 9
Anti matter spread should be on the ship
Deflector shot should be on the ship
On test center let players test it against tier
5 escorts until it's balanced meaning either
Ship could win I'n a 1 on 1 pvp
Repeat with a tier 5 science ship
Adjust all ships as nessary
It's just common sense and it would sell as
Well as improve the game overall
Balanced yet different
More than likely we will keep the mess we have
Now.
So let me understand this right, you want the Galaxy, the second largest cruiser in Starfleet, to be the most maneuverable cruiser available have two hard-wired abilities (one that would fry much of the ship when used) and a universal commander boff?
So what would be the downsides to such a ship? Maybe we should just install an "I win" console for TNG fans instead.
So let me understand this right, you want the Galaxy, the second largest cruiser in Starfleet, to be the most maneuverable cruiser available have two hard-wired abilities (one that would fry much of the ship when used) and a universal commander boff?
So what would be the downsides to such a ship? Maybe we should just install an "I win" console for TNG fans instead.
I'd like to add that I'm a Galaxy and TNG fan, yet I don't approve of these over-hyped "I win" setups. This thread offered several reasonable setups for an improved Galaxy A Universal Commander would technically be in canon (as all cruisers would have universal stations), yet "demanding" something like that in-game is just over the top.
EDIT: Many people, so it seems, just want that their Cruiser plays exactly like an Escort, as those are the most valuable ships in the game. Yet, this doesn't help the "Galaxy cause", at all, unfortunately...
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
it just doesn't make sense launching sub-warp small craft in cruiser battles.
Actually, launching sub-warp craft makes more sense than launching warp-capable craft. If you are launching subwarp craft, you can get something with the thrust-to-weight ratio of a ship without the unnecessary warp assembly, as the thing holding the bulky warp assembly is left behind as the carrier. It's when you start sticking warp drives on your fighters that the point is defeated: A warp-capable fighter no longer has a favorable thrust-to-weight compared to the larger ship. Instead, the entire thing is now less effiicient because you're wasting space on launch and recovery instead of just PEWPEWing. A warpless fighter makes sense: It's probably cheaper to make and has superior performance beause it's not dragging along the deadweight of a warp drive in an sublight engagement.
That's what always baffled me about the Galaxy separation: The SAUCER should be the part that is dangerous in a fight. It contains the BIG TRIBBLE LAZORS. The stardrive section just carries warp engines, which don't help you when you're not warping. They should have put the reactors in the saucer, then jettisoned the warp engines to go into a fight without the deadwight of the warp engines. Put the famblies in THERE instead, and have the warp engines limp off on their own at warp speed while the SAUCER fights.
Leaving behind a warpless saucer with no power is just asking for the bad guys to shoot it down after the battle ends, if they don't win. No one is actually ESCAPING that way.
It doesn't make sense to carry around warp-capable craft, I'm absolutely with you there. That's why it's stupid FEDs have carriers at all. And sub-warp fighters may be more agile, yet they lack the warp-core power to afford weapon/shields that can even scratch a bigger ship. Additionally, when the fighters are launched the enemy can just go to warp, leaving the fighters stranded in space - the same thing that applies to the saucer. I also agree with you there - the saucer is not very efficient at escaping without a warp-drive, though I understand that it's supposed to land on a planet or something. But still, the whole concept somehow lacks deep thought
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Well, what they call a "warp core" is, strictly speaking, an antimatter reactor that generates the power necessary to run a warp drive, as presumably lesser power sources do not produce enough energy to warp. There is no reason you actually need warp capability to use this warp core purely to drive your weapons and shields. You therefore don't need the entire warp assemblage of warp nacelles and pylons and whatnot, as you do not actually warp.
So a sub-warp fighting craft could still possess a reactor, but this reactor is now purely used to drive weapons and shields.
There is, of course, no particular reason why the "fighter" needs to be fightersized. Had the Galaxy class been sensibly made, the SAUCER section would be the dangerous bit: It contains the BIG LAZOR and all. The main reactor would go in the saucer. In battle, the noncombatants would be booted into the "stardrive" section, which would then bugger off under auxiliary power, leaving the saucer section to battle to the death, as without warp drive, it cannot retreat. Instead, the noncombatants are punted off essentially to the sidelines, where, if the stardrive section loses, they'll be killed anyway as the saucer without warp cannot actually GO anywhere.
That's the point: "fighter" sized craft which are launched just make no sense. The peregrine is the smallest variant of ship that could work, though those are also pretty much one-shot every time a beam hits just like shuttles (not counting plot-device-shielding). Why put such a strong generator on such a fragile ship which can easily be left behind when instead you could bash together a decent light cruiser/escort/destroyer craft. Fit a Miranda-refit with more weaponry and stronger shields, the Defiant-class speaks for itself and every B'rel will outclass tiny fighters any day.
Everything smaller than a "frigate" just doesn't make much sense in Star Trek IMO. And it never did in the shows either.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
space fighters are not the same thing an air plain fighters. space fighters are pt boats, airplanes operate in a different medium, the air, as apposed to sailing on the surface of the water. being in the air and not the water gives air plains about 90% of their inherent effectiveness.
how smart is it do you think to send pt boats against a battle ship? not very, compared to sending an airplain. but space ships have shields, there is no fighter weapon that can exploit a vulnerability in an energy shield. they are ships too, just very small ships, they cant be anything other then basically harmless.
Now that we have a Fleet Galaxy coming, what will be done with the current Galaxy Retrofit that we bought from C-store? Will it just sit and rot while other cruisers get better, and we have to wait for a long time till our fleets gets a tier 4 starbase? Not everybody have large fleets who can work on all projects simultaneously so the starbase can upgrade through tiers quickly. With squishy shields and laughable weapon power, the ship is barely worthy for PVE, let alone PVP. NPC's have constantly gotten upgraded and updated while the Galaxy ships been collecting dust because the Devs fail to fix the flaws they purposely put on them. Just like the Nebula is a weak excuse for a science ship, the Galaxy-R has become a weak excuse for a cruiser, and a big waste of money because the Devs hate TNG, so cripple those ships to make them laughing stalks of STO.
While the Fleet versions get more power and hit points, should you do something to fix the weapon power on the current Galaxy-R? It barely can scratch the surface with beam weapons on NPC hulls. There is no way possible its going to do damage to players in PVP who can now shield tank the little hull ships like escorts. It has a hard time killing the stupid pets that escort carriers put out. My Galaxy-R can't even compare to my Galaxy Dreadnought. My Dreadnought can sit there and take hits from an NPC frigate and the shield would barely budge. My Galaxy-R taking hits with the same type of NPC frigate and facing shield would go down to half or 30%. My shield power on boths ships are only a difference of 2 points, but gives drastic negative results for the Galaxy -R. To the least the the current Galaxy-R's need to be patched so they are on the same level as all the other regular cruisers who have fleet versions coming out.
I'd say it's more likely that you're just a rubbish player than anything wrong with either of those ships. I fly them both myself, and run both in PvP. You can easily tank 2-3 escorts in PvP with a properly outfitted Galaxy. Maybe fix your build before complaining about the ships. It's unlikely that an extra eng consoles, shield modifier, or 10% extra hull will help you win.
Very smart actually, destroyers were created exactly because of that ... torpedoes fired by smaller craft, they were originally called torpedo-boat destroyer.
And dont bring airplanes or I will bring the HMS Prince of Wales.
i figured someone would point that out, it was a weak argument unfortunately. but the main point is space pt boats are not going to be as effective as their water counterparts. even if they can carry 3 or 4 full size torps, any energy weapons will be extreamly weak. it all just doesn't translate well from ocean to space at all.
I'd say it's more likely that you're just a rubbish player than anything wrong with either of those ships. I fly them both myself, and run both in PvP. You can easily tank 2-3 escorts in PvP with a properly outfitted Galaxy. Maybe fix your build before complaining about the ships. It's unlikely that an extra eng consoles, shield modifier, or 10% extra hull will help you win.
Go against a real PvP player with a properly outfitted Escort and you and your Galaxy X/R/FV will be beaten.
You won't destroy the Escort, but it will destroy you. Probably 10 out of 10 times.
Baring a sneak attack from the Gal X or a Lance Crit that actually lands on the target as a Tac Captain.
PvP is an absolute joke in this game.
There is no ship balance, nor is there any rhyme or reason to many of their changes or abilities when it comes to space combat.
You can die with your shields at max.
And while Alpha Strikes for everyone else has been fixed, an Alpha Strike from a properly outfitted, arranged and played Escort still messes people up bad or kills them outright if they so much as twitch in the wrong direction.
Also, for those of you saying that the HBA idea is a good one, but only for the Galaxy R and the Fleet Variant...
The Galaxy X is in the same boat as the rest of the other Galaxy variants, it shouldn't be excluded.
Any buff to the Galaxy, be it T4 5 or 5.5x whatever, needs to apply to every Galaxy variant. Not just purchased or selectively purchased versions.
So let me understand this right, you want the Galaxy, the second largest cruiser in Starfleet, to be the most maneuverable cruiser available have two hard-wired abilities (one that would fry much of the ship when used) and a universal commander boff?
So what would be the downsides to such a ship? Maybe we should just install an "I win" console for TNG fans instead.
So you don't think a cruiser should have a equal chance
To beat your escort I'n a 1 on 1 pvp match ? Are you saying you
Don't want a fair fight or give up your current I win button
You didn't read the part about balancing all three ships
Out on test center.if testing were done I'n this manner
The final outcome on the ships stats would be suprising
Indeed
I just want a equal chance to win and pull my weight I'n
Any STF with my ship be it a science ship or engineer ship
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
I think this whole thing comes down to the ways that cryptic set up the roles of the ships. Escorts got the good end with high damage ability and maneuverability which is correct. They should be flying guns. That is what escorts do in most other space MMO games. Take BSGO for example. Escorts are the mid level ships, but a properly outfitted escort does more than it's fighter killing job. It also can kill ships of the line because it has the maneuverability to get in their blind spots and stay there, which is why you then need other escorts to kill them. But ONLY IF THEY GANG UP ON SAID LINE. In a 1v1, most properly built lines will brutally murder the escort and move on laughing, or it not laughing, at least live to tell the tale (after a few minutes of repairing and praying a bunch of strikes don't jump in to finish them off).
That's basically what cruisers are in this game. They are the Starfleet ships of the line. They are the heart and soul of the fleet (at least in canon and in many peoples hearts). But because of the role settings in this game, they got stuck with tank (which makes sense) and HEALER (which doesn't really make sense), and had to give up almost all of their damage capability to do it.
That's kind of what this whole thing comes down to. Damage output. Cruisers just don't have it. When I first saw cruisers, I was kind of expecting a sort of Command and Conquer method of doing things, with escorts being like Allied Mirage Tanks, come out of the blue, hit em hard, and then disappear before the counter-attack, or able to take some counter attack but not a whole ton of it. And I foolishly expected Cruisers to be like Apocalypse Tanks. Take forever and a day plus most of next week to get anywhere (they definitely have that when it comes to turning), but once they get there, ruin things like there's no tomorrow. Basically be BATTLESHIPS. Able to take huge amounts of punishment (which they got down), but able to make the target sorely regret it by giving tons back (don't quite have that part down). Again, foolish on my part.
Hence why I came up with the HBA design I posted a few pages back. Gives good dps, and has a high weapon arc (perfect for cruisers and their garbage turn), but not higher than DHCs which still allows escorts to be the main damage dealers. All that idea was intended to do was to give galaxy variants and odyssey ships the ability to have both sword AND shield, instead of a shield and a pillow. It would also be limited to ONLY galaxy variants and Odysseys since they are the only ones likely to be capable of sustaining the power necessary to use said weapons, and we don't give it to the smaller ships since they are nimble enough that they don't need it (as much, tbh DBBs are not nearly as good as DHCs but it's something).
As for the flagship buff I also mentioned? That's more for canon's sake than anything else. It is probably just writing or some other TRIBBLE like that, but I seem to remember anytime the Enterprise, the FLAGSHIP OF THE FLEET showed up, every other ship in the freakin fleet fought 10x better (probably just writing cuz you want the good guys to win). But it would also make those Tier 5 (by my definition for whoever it was that was arguing with me before about what tier is what) cruisers more useful in PvP cuz then they would give a nice buff to every other ship and actually be something that is regarded as good for more than just healing.
Forgive the long post, I just felt that this needed saying.
Edit:
P.S. Tbh escorts are a little OP. The massive spike damage and damage output in general is ok. That's what they are there for, that's their role. But to the broken part is the fact that they are also pretty tanky. In theory an escort and cruiser should be evenly matched, since the escort can do tons of damage, but the cruiser should be able to absorb most of it, while still hitting back, albeit not nearly as hard, but since escorts in theory should be a heck of a lot squishier, that not as hard should still hurt, at least as much as their massive onslaught that they just unleashed on the cruiser. As is, escorts are pretty tough, tougher than they shold be, and as such, have taken the role as main ship, since you don't need the tank if you can take the damage.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Well, given that the shield systems aparently work by randomly oscillating frequencys so that the wepons frequency and shield frequency never match. And that in order to be as effective as possible that frequency should be the inverse of the weapon being fired. And in order to fire through your own shields your weapons have to be tuned to the same frequency set. It stands to reason the more weapons directed at you, firing on different frequencys, would stand a better chance of penetration. And remember I suggested combat drones, If you used somthing the size of the standard fighter and removed the systems designed to make it habitable for people then converted the habitation spaces over for the mission critical equipment, you could probably get somthing that packs a nice punch.
Basicaly you could have a flying phaser cannon with torpedos.
As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
@ hereticknight: Good point. A Cruiser and a Escort should not be equal. But you can't do that in a game where people want to compare their genitalia in 1on1 situations, so everything has to be dumbed down to absolute "balance" which makes a rather boring game and effectively counters any attempt on tactical teamplay, sadly
@ f2pdrakon: If I remember correctly, the scene you describe involved a few dozen maquis ships, all shuttle sized and a few peregrine, overwhelming an ambushed Galor which pretty much one-shot attacking vessels with every phaser they fired and were additionally utterly disrupted by photon torpedo detonations intentionally not aimed at them. They would have conquered the Galor finally, but I don't understand how every time fighters come up people suggest that desperation attempts of armed civilians are a proof that Star Trek absolutely needs to use small vulnerable underpowered craft to give the enemy something to shoot while they have powerful cruisers and destroyer craft at their disposal. As dontdrunkimshoot pointed out, present day naval combat does not translate well to sci-fi, let alone to Star Trek where they just use different mechanics, it doesn't matter how long fighter-fans served in the navy this won't change
And no one wants a "death star" planet killer on a Galaxy. It is just that the Galaxy Class is the largest vessel Starfleet has (not counting non-canon additions in STO) and thus arguably the most powerful. It IS technically a Battleship, at least capable of becoming one when the need arises - except for Starfleet, everyone they encounter classify her as one and stand in awe before her. I think people don't get that you can have a powerful vessel and still keep a Federation attitude of "when in doubt, dont kill anything". Starfleet is a peacekeeping service, the Federation doesn't provoke military actions, yet their ships are powerful and the largest of it simply can power the strongest weaponry in the quadrant. That's what we were saying. You don't have to be afraid, it won't happen, nothing will change in this game, no one will dumb down escorts or improve cruisers
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
You don't have to be afraid, it won't happen, nothing will change in this game, no one will dumb down escorts or improve cruisers
And they will never un-derp science vessels, so all you escort pilots can breathe easy, this game is still yours to rule and will be for the foreseeable future. So take a seat, have a smoke, relax.
P.S. The rest of us will continue to know in our hearts that you do not deserve said position, and one day cryptic might realize this (not likely) and give our cruisers and sci vessels the power and capability they rightfully deserve, and you will be there that day and go WTF??? WHY AM I NOT OP ANYMORE!!! And we will laugh at you and kick your rears into the ground. So enjoy
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
And they will never un-derp science vessels, so all you escort pilots can breathe easy, this game is still yours to rule and will be for the foreseeable future. So take a seat, have a smoke, relax.
P.S. The rest of us will continue to know in our hearts that you do not deserve said position, and one day cryptic might realize this (not likely) and give our cruisers and sci vessels the power and capability they rightfully deserve, and you will be there that day and go WTF??? WHY AM I NOT OP ANYMORE!!! And we will laugh at you and kick your rears into the ground. So enjoy
And we will laugh, yeeees we will laaaaugh, muhahahaha, listen to it, MUHAHAHAHAHA!
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
To be fair, canonically speaking, the Galaxy cannot really be considered to be one of the more successful Federation designs. It contains a lot of features that simply failed to pan out. The entire saucer separation thing, for instance. Cute concept, but it failed to get put to use on the show, mainly because it's logically flawed: So you separate your ship into two pieces, including the piece that contains your big lazor cannon. You pack your non-combatants into a thing which then cannot actually leave the battlefield because it possess no warp drive. In the event that you lose the fight, which is now much more likely as you've been deprived of your big lazors, your noncombatants will then be massacred, as they cannot leave the battlefield.
It would have made much more sense to make the stardrive section the repository of the noncombatants, put the main reactor in the saucer section, and then separate it THAT way: The stardrive section, with the noncombatants, leaves at auxiliary warp power, while the saucer section, with only the impulse drives, flies off into a battle to the death free of the warp-drive baggage. As a side benefit, saucers are pretty maneuverable, having a fairly low moment of inertia for something of its mass. Of course, the saucer section is now locked in a battle to the death, having no warp drive to leave with...but at least those were your combatants, and your noncombatants can actually exit the battlefield.
To be fair, canonically speaking, the Galaxy cannot really be considered to be one of the more successful Federation designs. It contains a lot of features that simply failed to pan out. The entire saucer separation thing, for instance. Cute concept, but it failed to get put to use on the show, mainly because it's logically flawed: So you separate your ship into two pieces, including the piece that contains your big lazor cannon. You pack your non-combatants into a thing which then cannot actually leave the battlefield because it possess no warp drive. In the event that you lose the fight, which is now much more likely as you've been deprived of your big lazors, your noncombatants will then be massacred, as they cannot leave the battlefield.
It would have made much more sense to make the stardrive section the repository of the noncombatants, put the main reactor in the saucer section, and then separate it THAT way: The stardrive section, with the noncombatants, leaves at auxiliary warp power, while the saucer section, with only the impulse drives, flies off into a battle to the death free of the warp-drive baggage. As a side benefit, saucers are pretty maneuverable, having a fairly low moment of inertia for something of its mass. Of course, the saucer section is now locked in a battle to the death, having no warp drive to leave with...but at least those were your combatants, and your noncombatants can actually exit the battlefield.
I hate to say it, but his argument is logical.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Comments
Basically, Star Trek does not offer what it needs to employ "space fighters" and it was never about those. Even when they got those in late DS9 they were a distraction not a capable fighting squad. STO introduced it because every sci-fi universe out there takes the wing commander approach and the navy is cool anyways and people want present day naval battles in space.
That's the short version
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And its easy enough to take out a swarm of fighters. And iran got lucky I hear the one they got was malfunctioning which is why they even knew it was there.
Point was if we can do it now why couldn't we do it better in 400 years? And if the drones have the same attrition rate or worse than a manned fighter it's still better since you get to keep your skilled fighter pilot.
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
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Probably right but there are soft canon sources for the federation having carriers. Besides having atmo capability would at least make them useful to support ground ops. The federation may be dedicated to peace but they aren't stupid. I'm sure there are marines and whatnot just incase.
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
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In soft canon there is so much which was never spoken of again, that's not a viable source.
But I know what you are going for. Orbital fighter craft are actually present in Star Trek. The Bajorans had them on screen, the Remans and Runabouts and Peregrines have their purpose. But just not at space combat. I'm fine with them being launched by stations to intercept long range projectiles and such but it just doesn't make sense launching sub-warp small craft in cruiser battles. I'm fine with them assisting ground operations, though Starfleet doesn't have "marines" and the like at least in canon. In fact, canonically, the concept of ground based warfare was such a barbaric and outrageous thought that it gave picard the chills. When the Jem'Hadar attacked AR-558, the Starfleet personnel provided with prototype ground equipment were horrified, outnumbered and completely incapable of withstanding the enemy. True they would adapt and employ something like "Hazard Team elite forces" but I don't think they would adapt an army battalion. And you don't really need "marines" when you have Star Cruisers in orbit which can easily annihilate every random spot on a planets surface.
It's just the point - Star Trek was never about fighters and carriers, every other sci-fi show/game/movie was. Why don't leave Star Trek be Star Trek? *sob*
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I count Tier 5 ships as ships that you don't get for free for leveling up (which I love about this game btw, don't have to save up dil to get your next tier of ship YEEEES). Basically the Vice Admiral ships. I count Rear Admiral as Tier 4, Captain as Tier 3, Commander as Tier 2, and LtCmdr as tier 1, and your starting ship as a Lt as Tier 0 (cuz let's face it, that frigate is not a great ship at all XD). But that's the system I am referring to when I say Tier 5, so perhaps I should have been a mite more specific and said Vice Admiral ships.
So for the most part, ships that fall under my definition of Tier 5 are pretty much limited to Fleet Ships, a few retrofits, the Dreadnaught, the Odysseys, the carriers, and the MVAE. And I don't count the loloquarius as a Tier 5. In fact I deny it's very existence XD.
And out of all those ships, the only Tier 5 Cruisers (again using my definition of tier 5) are the Odysseys, Galaxy Retrofit/Dreadnaught/Fleet Retrofit, Fleet Star Cruiser, Heavy Cruiser Retrofit, and Fleet Heavy Cruiser Retrofit.
Bearing that in mind, we already removed the Heavy Cruiser Retrofit and Fleet version due to them being too small by nature and not having the energy output to sustain heavy beam arrays, which leaves us with the Galaxy Ships, Odyssey Ships, and that Fleet Star Cruiser, which is so unseen it might as well not be there.
THOSE are the ships we were referring to with the new weapon/buff portions of the thread.
You would eventualy need trained ground forces since not all targets can be bombarded from space. Technicaly marines are combat personell assigned to naval vessels so a well trained security team counts a a marine division (even though they have other duties).
And while soft canon is unreliable it still exists and some of it eventualy becomes canon, so you can't dismiss all of it.(Much as we would like to with most of it.)
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Occidere populo et effercio confractus
Originally Posted by hereticknight085
Hence why I added in only TIER 5 cruisers can use it. I believe I highlighted it in blue XD. But that was my intent. That's why it wouldn't make cruisers OP, because it was ONLY FOR TIER 5 SIHPS. Hence why it's not overpowered. I tried to think of everythign I could when I designed it.
For cryptic to make money on a true refit for
The Galaxy class your right it has to be on the
Tier 5 ship
Also it has to be limited to the ship not a interchangeable
Part/console I like the idea of heavy beam arrays but the ship needs
More than that
A third Tac console
Universal commander boff
Maneuverability bumped up to 9
Anti matter spread should be on the ship
Deflector shot should be on the ship
On test center let players test it against tier
5 escorts until it's balanced meaning either
Ship could win I'n a 1 on 1 pvp
Repeat with a tier 5 science ship
Adjust all ships as nessary
It's just common sense and it would sell as
Well as improve the game overall
Balanced yet different
More than likely we will keep the mess we have
Now.
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
So let me understand this right, you want the Galaxy, the second largest cruiser in Starfleet, to be the most maneuverable cruiser available have two hard-wired abilities (one that would fry much of the ship when used) and a universal commander boff?
So what would be the downsides to such a ship? Maybe we should just install an "I win" console for TNG fans instead.
I'd like to add that I'm a Galaxy and TNG fan, yet I don't approve of these over-hyped "I win" setups. This thread offered several reasonable setups for an improved Galaxy
EDIT: Many people, so it seems, just want that their Cruiser plays exactly like an Escort, as those are the most valuable ships in the game. Yet, this doesn't help the "Galaxy cause", at all, unfortunately...
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That's what always baffled me about the Galaxy separation: The SAUCER should be the part that is dangerous in a fight. It contains the BIG TRIBBLE LAZORS. The stardrive section just carries warp engines, which don't help you when you're not warping. They should have put the reactors in the saucer, then jettisoned the warp engines to go into a fight without the deadwight of the warp engines. Put the famblies in THERE instead, and have the warp engines limp off on their own at warp speed while the SAUCER fights.
Leaving behind a warpless saucer with no power is just asking for the bad guys to shoot it down after the battle ends, if they don't win. No one is actually ESCAPING that way.
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So a sub-warp fighting craft could still possess a reactor, but this reactor is now purely used to drive weapons and shields.
There is, of course, no particular reason why the "fighter" needs to be fightersized. Had the Galaxy class been sensibly made, the SAUCER section would be the dangerous bit: It contains the BIG LAZOR and all. The main reactor would go in the saucer. In battle, the noncombatants would be booted into the "stardrive" section, which would then bugger off under auxiliary power, leaving the saucer section to battle to the death, as without warp drive, it cannot retreat. Instead, the noncombatants are punted off essentially to the sidelines, where, if the stardrive section loses, they'll be killed anyway as the saucer without warp cannot actually GO anywhere.
Everything smaller than a "frigate" just doesn't make much sense in Star Trek IMO. And it never did in the shows either.
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highway to the dangerzone!:cool:
how smart is it do you think to send pt boats against a battle ship? not very, compared to sending an airplain. but space ships have shields, there is no fighter weapon that can exploit a vulnerability in an energy shield. they are ships too, just very small ships, they cant be anything other then basically harmless.
this is why space 'fighters' are stupid
I'd say it's more likely that you're just a rubbish player than anything wrong with either of those ships. I fly them both myself, and run both in PvP. You can easily tank 2-3 escorts in PvP with a properly outfitted Galaxy. Maybe fix your build before complaining about the ships. It's unlikely that an extra eng consoles, shield modifier, or 10% extra hull will help you win.
i figured someone would point that out, it was a weak argument unfortunately. but the main point is space pt boats are not going to be as effective as their water counterparts. even if they can carry 3 or 4 full size torps, any energy weapons will be extreamly weak. it all just doesn't translate well from ocean to space at all.
Go against a real PvP player with a properly outfitted Escort and you and your Galaxy X/R/FV will be beaten.
You won't destroy the Escort, but it will destroy you. Probably 10 out of 10 times.
Baring a sneak attack from the Gal X or a Lance Crit that actually lands on the target as a Tac Captain.
PvP is an absolute joke in this game.
There is no ship balance, nor is there any rhyme or reason to many of their changes or abilities when it comes to space combat.
You can die with your shields at max.
And while Alpha Strikes for everyone else has been fixed, an Alpha Strike from a properly outfitted, arranged and played Escort still messes people up bad or kills them outright if they so much as twitch in the wrong direction.
Also, for those of you saying that the HBA idea is a good one, but only for the Galaxy R and the Fleet Variant...
The Galaxy X is in the same boat as the rest of the other Galaxy variants, it shouldn't be excluded.
Any buff to the Galaxy, be it T4 5 or 5.5x whatever, needs to apply to every Galaxy variant. Not just purchased or selectively purchased versions.
So you don't think a cruiser should have a equal chance
To beat your escort I'n a 1 on 1 pvp match ? Are you saying you
Don't want a fair fight or give up your current I win button
You didn't read the part about balancing all three ships
Out on test center.if testing were done I'n this manner
The final outcome on the ships stats would be suprising
Indeed
I just want a equal chance to win and pull my weight I'n
Any STF with my ship be it a science ship or engineer ship
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
That's basically what cruisers are in this game. They are the Starfleet ships of the line. They are the heart and soul of the fleet (at least in canon and in many peoples hearts). But because of the role settings in this game, they got stuck with tank (which makes sense) and HEALER (which doesn't really make sense), and had to give up almost all of their damage capability to do it.
That's kind of what this whole thing comes down to. Damage output. Cruisers just don't have it. When I first saw cruisers, I was kind of expecting a sort of Command and Conquer method of doing things, with escorts being like Allied Mirage Tanks, come out of the blue, hit em hard, and then disappear before the counter-attack, or able to take some counter attack but not a whole ton of it. And I foolishly expected Cruisers to be like Apocalypse Tanks. Take forever and a day plus most of next week to get anywhere (they definitely have that when it comes to turning), but once they get there, ruin things like there's no tomorrow. Basically be BATTLESHIPS. Able to take huge amounts of punishment (which they got down), but able to make the target sorely regret it by giving tons back (don't quite have that part down). Again, foolish on my part.
Hence why I came up with the HBA design I posted a few pages back. Gives good dps, and has a high weapon arc (perfect for cruisers and their garbage turn), but not higher than DHCs which still allows escorts to be the main damage dealers. All that idea was intended to do was to give galaxy variants and odyssey ships the ability to have both sword AND shield, instead of a shield and a pillow. It would also be limited to ONLY galaxy variants and Odysseys since they are the only ones likely to be capable of sustaining the power necessary to use said weapons, and we don't give it to the smaller ships since they are nimble enough that they don't need it (as much, tbh DBBs are not nearly as good as DHCs but it's something).
As for the flagship buff I also mentioned? That's more for canon's sake than anything else. It is probably just writing or some other TRIBBLE like that, but I seem to remember anytime the Enterprise, the FLAGSHIP OF THE FLEET showed up, every other ship in the freakin fleet fought 10x better (probably just writing cuz you want the good guys to win). But it would also make those Tier 5 (by my definition for whoever it was that was arguing with me before about what tier is what) cruisers more useful in PvP cuz then they would give a nice buff to every other ship and actually be something that is regarded as good for more than just healing.
Forgive the long post, I just felt that this needed saying.
Edit:
P.S. Tbh escorts are a little OP. The massive spike damage and damage output in general is ok. That's what they are there for, that's their role. But to the broken part is the fact that they are also pretty tanky. In theory an escort and cruiser should be evenly matched, since the escort can do tons of damage, but the cruiser should be able to absorb most of it, while still hitting back, albeit not nearly as hard, but since escorts in theory should be a heck of a lot squishier, that not as hard should still hurt, at least as much as their massive onslaught that they just unleashed on the cruiser. As is, escorts are pretty tough, tougher than they shold be, and as such, have taken the role as main ship, since you don't need the tank if you can take the damage.
Basicaly you could have a flying phaser cannon with torpedos.
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Occidere populo et effercio confractus
@ f2pdrakon: If I remember correctly, the scene you describe involved a few dozen maquis ships, all shuttle sized and a few peregrine, overwhelming an ambushed Galor which pretty much one-shot attacking vessels with every phaser they fired and were additionally utterly disrupted by photon torpedo detonations intentionally not aimed at them. They would have conquered the Galor finally, but I don't understand how every time fighters come up people suggest that desperation attempts of armed civilians are a proof that Star Trek absolutely needs to use small vulnerable underpowered craft to give the enemy something to shoot while they have powerful cruisers and destroyer craft at their disposal. As dontdrunkimshoot pointed out, present day naval combat does not translate well to sci-fi, let alone to Star Trek where they just use different mechanics, it doesn't matter how long fighter-fans served in the navy this won't change
And no one wants a "death star" planet killer on a Galaxy. It is just that the Galaxy Class is the largest vessel Starfleet has (not counting non-canon additions in STO) and thus arguably the most powerful. It IS technically a Battleship, at least capable of becoming one when the need arises - except for Starfleet, everyone they encounter classify her as one and stand in awe before her. I think people don't get that you can have a powerful vessel and still keep a Federation attitude of "when in doubt, dont kill anything". Starfleet is a peacekeeping service, the Federation doesn't provoke military actions, yet their ships are powerful and the largest of it simply can power the strongest weaponry in the quadrant. That's what we were saying. You don't have to be afraid, it won't happen, nothing will change in this game, no one will dumb down escorts or improve cruisers
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And they will never un-derp science vessels, so all you escort pilots can breathe easy, this game is still yours to rule and will be for the foreseeable future. So take a seat, have a smoke, relax.
P.S. The rest of us will continue to know in our hearts that you do not deserve said position, and one day cryptic might realize this (not likely) and give our cruisers and sci vessels the power and capability they rightfully deserve, and you will be there that day and go WTF??? WHY AM I NOT OP ANYMORE!!! And we will laugh at you and kick your rears into the ground. So enjoy
And we will laugh, yeeees we will laaaaugh, muhahahaha, listen to it, MUHAHAHAHAHA!
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It would have made much more sense to make the stardrive section the repository of the noncombatants, put the main reactor in the saucer section, and then separate it THAT way: The stardrive section, with the noncombatants, leaves at auxiliary warp power, while the saucer section, with only the impulse drives, flies off into a battle to the death free of the warp-drive baggage. As a side benefit, saucers are pretty maneuverable, having a fairly low moment of inertia for something of its mass. Of course, the saucer section is now locked in a battle to the death, having no warp drive to leave with...but at least those were your combatants, and your noncombatants can actually exit the battlefield.
I hate to say it, but his argument is logical.